|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 6, 2018, 02:20 PM | #1 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
New Bipartisan Gun Bill on NICS Denials
Pro-RKBA and gun grabbers have teamed up to introduce a bill requiring the FBI to report NICS denials to state law enforcement agencies within 24 hours, as well as require the Justice Department to regularly report on prosecutions for lying on the 4473.
As some of you are aware, NICS made over 76,000 denials in 2010. Of those, 4,732 were referred to ATF field branches for further investigation. Only 62 were actually prosecuted. The idea behind the new law is to start arresting people when they attempt to obtain a firearm by lying on the 4473 and slipping through one of the many gaps in NICs. https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politic...kground-check/ |
March 6, 2018, 06:02 PM | #2 |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,453
|
Enforce an existing law?
What a novel idea! If you think about it, it's a sad commentary when you have to pass a law to try to get a law enforcement agency to enforce a law that's already on the books. |
March 6, 2018, 06:06 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,970
|
Badges? We have no stinkin' badges.
It must be nice to have unlimited funds to play with. It's a shame, it's our money.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson |
March 6, 2018, 07:22 PM | #4 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
On the plus side, enforcing existing law is a nice change from “The last 20 laws we haven’t enforced aren’t working. Time to pass more laws!”
|
March 6, 2018, 08:00 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 887
|
I'm afraid the approvals may be causing more grief to lawful gun owners than the denials.
|
March 7, 2018, 03:57 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,951
|
How does this work.
Lying on a federal form is a Federal crime, how is this a State's issue? |
March 7, 2018, 06:52 AM | #7 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
For years, I've been arguing that current law needs to be better enforced before new laws should be enacted. I'll need to look at the bill, but if the article's accurate, I don't see a problem with this bill.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
March 7, 2018, 09:47 AM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
|
March 7, 2018, 09:59 AM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: May 30, 2005
Posts: 27
|
How about a law requiring a report on the amount of false positives from background checks?
How about making the check for the same things in ALL states? Owning a 10 round mag in NY is a felony and 100% legal in most states. Why does writing a bad check stop you from buying or owning a gun? Why is all mental illness a dis qualifier when 99+% of mental patients never show any form of violence? We don't need background checks or laws that prohibit owning a gun, killing , hurting or robbing with a gun are already illegal. |
March 7, 2018, 10:03 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
|
|
March 7, 2018, 10:37 AM | #11 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Quote:
To be disqualified by mental illness, a person must have been found by a court to be mentally incapable or a danger to self or others. It's not the mental illness as such that's disqualifying.
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
||
March 7, 2018, 10:40 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Lohman I've never seen or heard your question addressed in any rational way. There is a big difference in mild depression that is tied to a traumatic life experience like loss of a loved one, and psychosis that causes a complete break with reality.
Who decides? A governmental bureaucrat? A medical professional with a political agenda? Local law enforcement? What sort of appeal process is in place to assure due process? I'm all for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous people. Unfortunately as a gun carrying citizen, I fit that definition according to many.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
March 7, 2018, 10:43 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 887
|
With NICS in place, use of the 4473 should be discontinued. Not even sure it's a reasonable expectation for everyone to tell the truth on the form due to the 5th amendment issues.
|
March 7, 2018, 10:47 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Evan it is the process for removing the right to buy or own guns that I am worried about. An ex-wife with a grudge enough? A neighbor who doesn't like my lawn grooming style? The meer suggestion of erratic behavior to local law enforcement?
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
March 7, 2018, 10:54 AM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
For instance let's consider that I start to notice some symptoms that are consistent with schizophrenia in myself. Do I go and see a mental health professional and seek treatment knowing that such treatment MAY, with an adjustment in the laws, ban me from owning firearms? What about depression? Are we going to trust our politicians to make an inclusive list of mental illnesses and severity we are concerned with or our judicial system sorting out those questions? |
|
March 7, 2018, 11:06 AM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
March 7, 2018, 11:37 AM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Quote:
For someone to be adjudicated mentally defective, a court must hold a hearing on a person's competence, find them incapable of handling their own affairs, and appoint a legal guardian. This isn't something that's treated casually, nor is it something which lends itself to nuisance complaints of the kind you mention. Similarly, the process of involuntarily committing someone to a mental institution requires a court to review evidence and find that the person is a danger to themselves or others. It puts a substantial burden of proof on those making the request, as it should -- depriving someone of liberty (and other rights) isn't something to be undertaken casually. We're now seeing attempts to weaken these processes in the name of safety, and -- regrettably -- many of these proposals are coming from pro-gun people who are essentially scapegoating people with mental illness, who are far less likely to perpetrate violence than to be its victims.
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
|
March 7, 2018, 11:55 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 887
|
Quote:
In most (all?) other criminal cases, a person will be made aware of charges against them and be given the Miranda warning so that subsequent statements will be considered admissible. Such is not the case with the 4473. In fact the 4473 seems to be a deliberate attempt to circumvent potential 5th Amendment issues. |
|
March 7, 2018, 11:59 AM | #19 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,453
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
March 7, 2018, 12:07 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Your argument is flawed BB. You certainly have the right to not answer a question on the form. Lying on the form, or in court is not a protected right. I will leave further discussion to those more familiar with the nuances of the law.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
March 7, 2018, 12:18 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
|
|
March 7, 2018, 12:19 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
I certify that my answers in Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF
Form 4473. I understand that answering "yes" to question 11.a. if I am not the actual transferee/buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law. I understand that a person who answers "yes" to any of the questions 11.b. through 11.i and/or 12.b. through 12.c. is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm. I understand that a person who answers "yes" to question 12.d.1. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm, unless the person answers "yes" to question 12.d.2. and provides the documentation required in 18.c. I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law. I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal firearms license is a violation of Federal law. ( The above is copied from the form. It makes it perfectly clear that lying on this form is a felony. Committing a felony is not protected by the 5th Amendment.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
March 7, 2018, 12:30 PM | #23 |
Junior member
Join Date: June 13, 2017
Posts: 429
|
It's funny how strictly enforcing the laws we currently have would solve the majority of the issues.
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|