What company manufactured this 1862 Colt?

TemboTusk · November 23, 2013, 10:54 PM

By looking at the markings, does anybody know the Italian maker of this 1862 Colt Navy?

See pics below.

Thanks!

swathdiver · November 23, 2013, 11:46 PM

Those are just Italian proofs, not makers marks. Any more photos? Cannot make out the date code (square with two letters on frame).

To my limited knowledge, an accurate sized '62 Navy was made only by Palmetto and Uberti. Maybe ASM but I've yet to see one, though they did make the Pocket Police.

TemboTusk · November 24, 2013, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Those are just Italian proofs, not makers marks. Any more photos? Cannot make out the date code (square with two letters on frame).

There are not too many markings on this '62. see close up of the mark on the frame, under the trigger guard and under the barrel.

Hawg · November 24, 2013, 07:15 AM

Its an ASM but the date code is a double strike.

Doc Hoy · November 24, 2013, 07:53 AM

Since we are accessible to many revolvers which are marked in ways that don't give a good indication of their origin, it would be helpful to have (in addition to the files that show various manufacturer's markings.) a listing of descriptions of how the weapons are marked.

As an example, I believe I have detected a commonality in serial numbers of ASP revolvers. The ones I have seen have their serial numbers in places that are not readily visible without some disassembly. That is NOT true of the Euroarms revolvers I have which were made by ASP. Serial numbers on Colts on the Frame and Barrel. Serial numbers on Remingtons on the left side of the frame. A large proportion of Italian revolvers have a letter as part of the SN preceding the numbers. On ASPs, I have examined, the letter stamp is about the same size as the number stamps. And alignment of the letter and numbers is good. I have seen ASMs in which the letter stamp is a different size and because of the location and orientation of the letter stamp imprint, it appears to have been done at a different time from the number. Different size letter stamp and different alignment of the letter such that it does not line up with the numerals.

I have a Siles Remington and a Euroarms Rogers and Spencer. The markings on the right side of the barrels of these two revolvers are identical in character and location. It appears they were made by the same manufacturer.

Some very experienced revolver shooters can pick up an ASP and an ASM from the same general time and tell the difference by noting features of quality. (ASP being somewhat superior to ASM.) I think the ASPs from fifteen or more years ago are almost as good as Pietta post CNC conversion. Although I have no problem whatever with ASM.

I think your photos are of an ASP revolver but that is a SWAG. You had to take it apart to get to all of the SNs.

Hawg · November 24, 2013, 08:11 AM

Hmmm, you may be right Doc. I hadn't considered the size of the letter. Was thinking ASM was the only one that used an A prefix but you've seen more ASM's and ASP's than I have.

swathdiver · November 24, 2013, 09:38 AM

I have seen ASMs, Palmettos, Ubertis, Piettas and Pierino Ruschettas with letter prefixes. My 1960s ASP does not have a letter prefix.

Doc Hoy · November 24, 2013, 09:41 AM

It defies logic.

I have seen these letter prefixes on Pietta, ASM, ASPs. but not on Colt 2nd and 3rd gens. I think the Colts were numbered by the assembler (Imperato et al.) here in the US on parts supplied by Uberti and not numbered in Italy.

The Centaures IIUC have no letter as part of the SN in any example. Mine is 952.

The ASPs which are manufactured under a contract which would likely have been marketed in the US, (Euroarms, Navy Arms, Hawes, etc) seem not to have the letter, but those ASPs which were clearly intended to be marketed as ASPs have the letter.

ASM seems to have applied less stringent procedures in marking their revolvers. Serial number imprint alignment is not consistent. Use of the letter in the serial number appears to be fairly consistent but the choice of letter is all over the place. (A, B, N, I, H and the story goes.) I have two ASM 1860 Army revolvers. Both are .44 and brass frame. The revolvers appear to be identical except for the manner in which they are marked. One has the markings on the underside of the barrel under the loading lever which is consistent ASM practice. The other revolver has the barrel markings at about the five o'clock position on the barrel when viewing the revolver from the stern. This second revolver has no serial number and I think it started life as a kit.

I think it is pretty well accepted that ASM applied lower QC standards to its revolvers and so it isn't surprising that their details would be a little less organized than ASP.

Notice I have said nothing about C.O.M. No letter in the serial number of the only one I have. Nothing about Palmetto either since I don't own any and can't speak to them.

I'll bet bprevolver could tell us a lot about how the markings differ on alternately manufactured revolvers.

Bootsie · November 24, 2013, 10:20 AM

I used to own an Uberti made Colt 1860 Army from 1967 with "A" prefix.
Regarding the 5 models of Belgian Centaures, the
# Regular New Model Armies (RNMAs: 8" barrel, 3-screw frame with notches in the recoil shield),
# 1st Variation Marshal Models (5,5" barrel, 3-screw frame, stainless look),
# Pocket Army Models (4" barrel without loading lever, 3-screw frame with "round" recoil shield)
don't have a prefix.
# Civilian Models (8" barrel, 3-screw frame with "round" recoil shield, silver plated TG and BS) have the "C" prefix
# 4-screw frame models: Cavalry Models (7,5" & 8" barrels) and 2nd Variation Marshal Models (5,5" barrel, fluted cylinder, stainless look) have the "F" prefix.
Long Johns Wolf

TemboTusk · November 24, 2013, 10:45 AM

Who or what is "ASP"? I don't think it would be so hard to determine the manufacture!

Hawg · November 24, 2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Who or what is "ASP"?

ASP = Armi san Paolo, later Euroarms.

Quote:

I don't think it would be so hard to determine the manufacture!

Then you have another think coming.

Sometimes it is very difficult. Sometimes you have a manufacturers mark and still know nothing or next to nothing about it.

TemboTusk · November 24, 2013, 03:00 PM

Thanks Hawg. Euroarms ... I have one of their Rogers and Spencer models. Bought in the late '80s.

Can I assume this is an orphaned pistol? In other words, parts are hard to come by?

Doc Hoy · November 24, 2013, 03:49 PM

Try VTI, Dixie, Numrich.

Or....Send it to me....I'll worry about parts.

;o)

In the serious side, that R and S from Euroarms is a good pistol. Well worth the effort and expense to fix.

TemboTusk · November 24, 2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Or....Send it to me....I'll worry about parts.

That took thirteen posts!!! You guys are slacking!

Actually the pistol is in good working order ... However, I like to tinker and knowing the manufacture makes it easier to know if parts are readily available or not.

Hawg · November 24, 2013, 05:05 PM

Somebody like bprevolver may come in and can tell you exactly what it is.

PetahW · November 25, 2013, 02:16 PM

.

Here's a few links to the skinny, on some Italian BP guns:

http://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Info/...lianSerial.pdf

http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf

.

Fingers McGee · November 25, 2013, 03:52 PM

Since the date stamp appears to be CB (2007), it can't be an ASM. Gun has to be a Uberti.

TemboTusk · November 25, 2013, 04:12 PM

Thanks pethW and Fingers,

Good info and good eyes! I could not see the "C" in the date mark.

A Uberti is good news.

Hawg · November 25, 2013, 06:01 PM

I dunno how you got a C out of that but I'll take your word for it.

PetahW · November 25, 2013, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingers McGee

the date stamp appears to be CB (2007)

I don't know how you got a C out of that

Look closely at the stamp, particularly how the upper 1/3 is shifted/offset to the right, just below the top line of the letter "B".

If you shift the top back in place towards the left, so the upper & lower side borders align, the top of both the "C" & the "B" will also align properly.

Evidently, the maker's marking stamp was split/broken & was either held in the offset position during stamping, or stamped one half at a time with an alignment error.

.

TemboTusk · November 25, 2013, 08:44 PM

I have "realigned" the stamp through Photoshop. It really does look like a "C" now!

Fingers McGee has some sharp experienced eyes!

November 23, 2013, 10:54 PM	#1
TemboTusk Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2012 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 139	What company manufactured this 1862 Colt? By looking at the markings, does anybody know the Italian maker of this 1862 Colt Navy? See pics below. Thanks!

November 24, 2013, 07:53 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	This one maybe a job for Superman (bprevolver) Since we are accessible to many revolvers which are marked in ways that don't give a good indication of their origin, it would be helpful to have (in addition to the files that show various manufacturer's markings.) a listing of descriptions of how the weapons are marked. As an example, I believe I have detected a commonality in serial numbers of ASP revolvers. The ones I have seen have their serial numbers in places that are not readily visible without some disassembly. That is NOT true of the Euroarms revolvers I have which were made by ASP. Serial numbers on Colts on the Frame and Barrel. Serial numbers on Remingtons on the left side of the frame. A large proportion of Italian revolvers have a letter as part of the SN preceding the numbers. On ASPs, I have examined, the letter stamp is about the same size as the number stamps. And alignment of the letter and numbers is good. I have seen ASMs in which the letter stamp is a different size and because of the location and orientation of the letter stamp imprint, it appears to have been done at a different time from the number. Different size letter stamp and different alignment of the letter such that it does not line up with the numerals. I have a Siles Remington and a Euroarms Rogers and Spencer. The markings on the right side of the barrels of these two revolvers are identical in character and location. It appears they were made by the same manufacturer. Some very experienced revolver shooters can pick up an ASP and an ASM from the same general time and tell the difference by noting features of quality. (ASP being somewhat superior to ASM.) I think the ASPs from fifteen or more years ago are almost as good as Pietta post CNC conversion. Although I have no problem whatever with ASM. I think your photos are of an ASP revolver but that is a SWAG. You had to take it apart to get to all of the SNs. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 24, 2013, 09:41 AM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hawg et al. It defies logic. I have seen these letter prefixes on Pietta, ASM, ASPs. but not on Colt 2nd and 3rd gens. I think the Colts were numbered by the assembler (Imperato et al.) here in the US on parts supplied by Uberti and not numbered in Italy. The Centaures IIUC have no letter as part of the SN in any example. Mine is 952. The ASPs which are manufactured under a contract which would likely have been marketed in the US, (Euroarms, Navy Arms, Hawes, etc) seem not to have the letter, but those ASPs which were clearly intended to be marketed as ASPs have the letter. ASM seems to have applied less stringent procedures in marking their revolvers. Serial number imprint alignment is not consistent. Use of the letter in the serial number appears to be fairly consistent but the choice of letter is all over the place. (A, B, N, I, H and the story goes.) I have two ASM 1860 Army revolvers. Both are .44 and brass frame. The revolvers appear to be identical except for the manner in which they are marked. One has the markings on the underside of the barrel under the loading lever which is consistent ASM practice. The other revolver has the barrel markings at about the five o'clock position on the barrel when viewing the revolver from the stern. This second revolver has no serial number and I think it started life as a kit. I think it is pretty well accepted that ASM applied lower QC standards to its revolvers and so it isn't surprising that their details would be a little less organized than ASP. Notice I have said nothing about C.O.M. No letter in the serial number of the only one I have. Nothing about Palmetto either since I don't own any and can't speak to them. I'll bet bprevolver could tell us a lot about how the markings differ on alternately manufactured revolvers. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 24, 2013, 03:49 PM	#13
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	TT, Try VTI, Dixie, Numrich. Or....Send it to me....I'll worry about parts. ;o) In the serious side, that R and S from Euroarms is a good pistol. Well worth the effort and expense to fix. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 25, 2013, 03:52 PM	#17
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Since the date stamp appears to be CB (2007), it can't be an ASM. Gun has to be a Uberti. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

November 23, 2013, 11:46 PM	#2
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	Those are just Italian proofs, not makers marks. Any more photos? Cannot make out the date code (square with two letters on frame). To my limited knowledge, an accurate sized '62 Navy was made only by Palmetto and Uberti. Maybe ASM but I've yet to see one, though they did make the Pocket Police.

November 24, 2013, 07:15 AM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Its an ASM but the date code is a double strike.

November 24, 2013, 08:11 AM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Hmmm, you may be right Doc. I hadn't considered the size of the letter. Was thinking ASM was the only one that used an A prefix but you've seen more ASM's and ASP's than I have.

November 24, 2013, 09:38 AM	#7
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	I have seen ASMs, Palmettos, Ubertis, Piettas and Pierino Ruschettas with letter prefixes. My 1960s ASP does not have a letter prefix.

November 24, 2013, 10:20 AM	#9
Bootsie Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Hofheim/Germany Posts: 102	I used to own an Uberti made Colt 1860 Army from 1967 with "A" prefix. Regarding the 5 models of Belgian Centaures, the # Regular New Model Armies (RNMAs: 8" barrel, 3-screw frame with notches in the recoil shield), # 1st Variation Marshal Models (5,5" barrel, 3-screw frame, stainless look), # Pocket Army Models (4" barrel without loading lever, 3-screw frame with "round" recoil shield) don't have a prefix. # Civilian Models (8" barrel, 3-screw frame with "round" recoil shield, silver plated TG and BS) have the "C" prefix # 4-screw frame models: Cavalry Models (7,5" & 8" barrels) and 2nd Variation Marshal Models (5,5" barrel, fluted cylinder, stainless look) have the "F" prefix. Long Johns Wolf

November 24, 2013, 10:45 AM	#10
TemboTusk Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2012 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 139	Who or what is "ASP"? I don't think it would be so hard to determine the manufacture!

November 24, 2013, 03:00 PM	#12
TemboTusk Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2012 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 139	Thanks Hawg. Euroarms ... I have one of their Rogers and Spencer models. Bought in the late '80s. Can I assume this is an orphaned pistol? In other words, parts are hard to come by?

November 24, 2013, 05:05 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Somebody like bprevolver may come in and can tell you exactly what it is.

November 25, 2013, 02:16 PM	#16
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. Here's a few links to the skinny, on some Italian BP guns: http://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Info/...lianSerial.pdf http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf .

November 25, 2013, 04:12 PM	#18
TemboTusk Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2012 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 139	Thanks pethW and Fingers, Good info and good eyes! I could not see the "C" in the date mark. A Uberti is good news.

November 25, 2013, 06:01 PM	#19
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I dunno how you got a C out of that but I'll take your word for it.

November 25, 2013, 08:44 PM	#21
TemboTusk Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2012 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 139	I have "realigned" the stamp through Photoshop. It really does look like a "C" now! Fingers McGee has some sharp experienced eyes!