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Old February 24, 2017, 02:49 PM   #76
K_Mac
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My skill level is there, the problem is I have a lot of years practicing with heart shots.
While there may be places for a head shot to stop an attacker, the likelihood of making that shot under the stress of most deadly attacks is not good. There are many of us who given a little time time in a static situation can make the shot. Time is the key though, and is generally in very short supply in this situation. I regularly practice double tap head shots and shooting while moving, but center mass is my primary target. A moving head is a tough target, and all rounds have to be accounted for. I will stick to center mass unless there is compelling reason to do something else.
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Old February 24, 2017, 05:05 PM   #77
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Well, I learned something today by looking up "pummelo."

I am not a professional with firearms, but I can sure see the difficulty in making head shots. I'm not sure I see your concerns about a pelvis shot, though, briandg. We are really just talking about getting rounds in the lower part of the trunk rather than the upper trunk. You don't have to pick off the femoral artery or the femur to get a damaging shot down there. I don't buy the idea that a pistol shot will shatter a pelvis, but if a BG is still coming after two or three rounds to the chest, causing pain and blood loss in a new part of the body seems like a reasonable thing to try. There are some big arteries and veins in the lower abdomen and pelvis, and stuff in that region that leaks and causes some pretty severe and immediate pain. There would always be the possibility that you were walking your shots off of body armor, too.
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Old February 24, 2017, 05:11 PM   #78
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I watched a couple guys on a duelling tree once, what was it, five or six inches, twenty feet?

These plates weren't even moving. They popped up, the just sat there and you shot.

So, these guys could both pop six inch bullseye targets all day. But what happened when the targets changed position,there were several to keep track of, and there was a little bit of distraction, meaning a guy next to him who was shooting? Keeping in mind that the shooter at the next station was just popping rounds down range next to him, not shooting at him.

Seriously, these two guys who were actually pretty capable, couldn't even handle the very slight pressure placed on them by such a low level of competition, distraction, movement,and so on. They both choked, they missed almost every shot.

I guess I have about an 80% chance of static brain shots at across the street distances, add any sort of real pressure, that will probably drop my chances of getting a brain shot in before I'm hit somewhere to absolute zero.

I really believe that almost anyone who plans on making special kill shots is going to fall back to the easiest task and drop to the default lowest level of training without even making a conscious decision. That would be a good thing, because all evidence points to a person's training and ability, basic capability, tanking under pressure.

People believe that they will rise to that challenge and meet the needs, but not a chance. This isn't about shooting skills, it is entirely about how one handles extreme pressure, and being able to perform. I don't believe that even a tiny fraction of civilians train for that.
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Old February 24, 2017, 05:57 PM   #79
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Gator, I'm not meaning to say that pelvis shots are ineffective, they are going to hurt people. I do believe, just based on anatomy, that shots to the chest are going to be far more damaging than a round through the intestines.

In truth, there is a lot of space in the belly and pelvis that is far from disabling. I base my preference for chest vs pelvis based on nothing but measuring areas that I consider to be very fragile, and counting the square inches.

Photo public domain from WIKI commons

You can look at the belly and torso, and count the areas that will cause a genuine possibility of rapid disability, measure that in square inches, look at the areas that just have little to no possibility of rapid disability.

Go to center, and examine from the eighth rib up, and what you will see is an almost solid mass of things that are going to bleed like a water balloon. Every place up there should, in normal circumstances, hit like a bat to the chest. Spine, heart, collar bones, lots of places there that will normally give him a pause.

That's just it. A much bigger target. Sure, the hip or other bones could put him down, but other than that and a couple arteries, there's nothing really capable of serious, disabling injury.


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Old February 24, 2017, 06:05 PM   #80
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There is an obvious and correct thought of trying other targets if center chest fails, and yes, when you have a drug or steroid induced cyborg on your hands and the usual stuff ain't working, you adapt to the situation and win.

I wish that I was better at working under pressure, I don't know if I'd be able to change off.

My thoughts are that pelvis or shoulder come next and head shot would be that absolute last chance.
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Old February 24, 2017, 06:26 PM   #81
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THANK YOU Briandg. Your last posts (should) resolve the issue! A pelvis shot with a bench-rest rifle on a bench rest at a standing threat would still not be my first choice. In a true self defense situation it is absurd - at least as a first or second shot.
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Old February 24, 2017, 06:49 PM   #82
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I wouldn't go so far as calling it ridiculous, but it comes close.

Center mass heart lung target zones are very effective. Brain shots or skeletal center shots are also effective.

Heart lung region target spots are not only bigger, they are also generally more easily damaged. Logic dictates that if you can hit the upper chest, that's what you should try. It should be first line for any "ordinary shooter."

If center mass shots fail, for example,stopped by armor, move on. If there is a balloon hang in outside my house and I want to make it go away, I'm not going to shoot at the string.
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Old February 24, 2017, 08:16 PM   #83
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My thoughts are that pelvis or shoulder come next and head shot would be that absolute last chance.
Yep, that's my thinking. The descending aorta and inferior vena cava carry a lot of blood, and if you disrupt them with a shot a lot of blood leaves circulation quickly (admittedly a lucky shot, but so is the aorta in the chest). We know how fast someone can bleed out by the femoral arteries, but they originate from the terminal aorta in the area we are talking about. The contents of the bladder and bowel, when spilled, cause some pretty immediate pain. To get an idea of how bad serosal pain is, think about appendicitis, in which the pain is primarily from stretching the serosa of the appendix.

None of this is to say that the thorax is unimportant, or that shots there are more likely to be incapacitating than a pelvic shot, but a shot to the lower abdomen or pelvis is not inconsequential. Like you said, I would go there before trying a head shot on a moving subject, but I would go for a conventional chest shot first.
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Old February 27, 2017, 12:14 PM   #84
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Win their hearts and minds before targeting genitalia.

Like dating, but faster.


Upper center mass is my first choice, preferably heart or spine, but whatever.
Face is second choice if torso shots failed, preferably entering brain via nostrils or tear ducts.
Pelvis is rather unlikely for close range self defense. Might work with a shotgun but I don't carry one.

If you shoot any critter on earth in the face enough times, he'll tend to leave you alone.
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Old February 27, 2017, 12:31 PM   #85
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Nothing new.
At a two-week DEA course my PD sent several of us to in 1982, one of the instructors was an MD associated with the DEA.

We got him sidetracked at one point on some of his experiences as a medical examiner, including calibers, gunshot wounds, and so on.

He advised to go for the pelvic girdle if possible, because if it can be disrupted it's a shutdown as far as mobility & continued fighting go.
With a side note that, as he put it- "It rings the gong all the way up the spine."
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Old February 27, 2017, 12:52 PM   #86
Mas Ayoob
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Some thoughts and discussion points on the topic, here:

http://gunsmagazine.com/vital-points/
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Old February 27, 2017, 01:33 PM   #87
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I guess the answer is to shoot your standard center of mass, then head shot and if it doesn't stop them just keep putting holes in them until they stop.

Whether that is the COM, head, pelvis or whatever, just keep shooting til they stop fighting. I think we can argue for day where those shots should go.
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Old February 27, 2017, 03:29 PM   #88
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http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...suicide/231450

So we have body armor and multiple wounds. Looks like head shots might have been the only option but who knows. After the fact analyses are worth what you paid for them.
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Old February 27, 2017, 05:46 PM   #89
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Mas posted excellent info, it fits lock and key with my thoughts.

One thing that he explained well was to aim at kill points, not zones. Don't just shoot at the center of the chest, learn where the heart is and lean a bit into it. Don't just point at the face, aim center and above the eyes an it will damage important neurons. If you shoot for the pelvis, know where the pelvis is, or look for some other landmark.

A gunfight is all about chaos, and trying to wrestle control of the situation and stop it. Control your shooting to your best ability and put the rounds where they belong and maybe your opponent won't be one of the cyborgs who take an entire magazine without flinching.

Thanks, Mas ayoob.
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Old February 27, 2017, 06:07 PM   #90
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Bill Jordan described the Border Patrolman who was shot by an undocumented felonious immigrant. The shot fractured his hip or pelvis and sure enough, it "broke him down" and he fell and rolled down the shoulder of the road. Apparently his assailant was waiting for him to get to the bottom and stop so he could finish him off. He did not live to see it, the wounded patrolman drew and shot him on the way.

I have had a fractured pelvis. That guy was TOUGH.
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Old February 27, 2017, 06:15 PM   #91
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I never fractured my pelvis, but my mother in law broke her thigh off at the socket, similar, but not the same. She just laid there and screamed.

I herniated a disk and nearly went down. I've broken a few things, and I would have been able to shoot. It's complicated. For him to go down like that and still win is incredible. What a man.

Some of the bad guys are just as amazing as he was.
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Old February 27, 2017, 10:50 PM   #92
Mas Ayoob
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Good points.

As noted in the earlier link, breaking down the pelvis does not NEUTRALIZE the attacker, but it profoundly impairs his mobility.

The pelvic shot makes sense for the opponent with knife, club, or bare-handed disparity of force, since taking away his ability to reach you does in fact take away his ability to harm you.

Anchoring him in place also makes it much more likely that you can deliver a brain shot if he is armed with a gun and center chest shots have failed, since his ability to "duck" a weapon pointed at him is dramatically reduced when his grounded body reduces the potential range of movement of his head away from a gun he perceives to be pointed there.

Tailor the tool -- and the tactics -- to the task. The pelvis would not be my first target facing an antagonist armed with a remote control weapon such as a firearm, but it does have its place in the toolbox.
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Old February 27, 2017, 11:23 PM   #93
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Mas,

Thank you.

Didn't you report an incident some years ago involving a female police officer who stopped an attack with a pelvis shot? I believe she was using a 9mm with 147 grain bullets. Or am I just imagining it?

I was looking through back issues of American Handgunner with no luck.
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Old February 28, 2017, 12:00 AM   #94
Mas Ayoob
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Frank, it was New York City PD, young female rookie who was first on scene against a knife-wielding madman. She ordered him not to move, he came at her with the blade, and she dropped him like a rock with one shot to the pelvis. Reports were that he lost all interest in hurting her or anyone else, and just laid there screaming until backup and Emergency Medical Services arrived. It was the standard NYPD 9mm load then and now, 124 grain Speer +P Gold Dot.
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Old February 28, 2017, 01:48 AM   #95
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Thanks. It's good to know I'm not entirely losing my mind -- even if I was wrong about the ammunition.
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Old February 28, 2017, 06:02 AM   #96
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Seems like a bunch of us in going to the bathroom, do not want to go back to sleep, yes?

Being retired helps.

Showing a class of young Officers, or Security staff, the organs that sit behind that jacket, or shirt, is a great idea. Hanging your vest over that part of the human body? Yes, that can cause the wearing of said vest, to be a priority.

Practicing firing burst's of 3 and 4 rounds, not a bad idea.

Dr. Fackler said shooting the pelvis? Might just put a hole in it?
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Old February 28, 2017, 07:53 AM   #97
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Quote:
Good points.

As noted in the earlier link, breaking down the pelvis does not NEUTRALIZE the attacker, but it profoundly impairs his mobility.

The pelvic shot makes sense for the opponent with knife, club, or bare-handed disparity of force, since taking away his ability to reach you does in fact take away his ability to harm you.

Anchoring him in place also makes it much more likely that you can deliver a brain shot if he is armed with a gun and center chest shots have failed, since his ability to "duck" a weapon pointed at him is dramatically reduced when his grounded body reduces the potential range of movement of his head away from a gun he perceives to be pointed there.

Tailor the tool -- and the tactics -- to the task. The pelvis would not be my first target facing an antagonist armed with a remote control weapon such as a firearm, but it does have its place in the toolbox.
Thanks for posting with the link and additional info Mas.

I've really enjoyed your books. Please keep writing more.
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Old February 28, 2017, 09:04 AM   #98
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That may be the only time I've ever heard the remote control comparison. I've used it since the nineties, but on a psychological basis. Using a gun became so common, so easy, that I started thinking of people using one in some cases as a "hurt button". How many individual killings would take place if the killer hadn't had a gun, and his choices were hand to hand and bloody and brutal?

Killing and hurting with a gun is easy, drive by and spray, even works. Take it out and push the button. It gives you a jolt of adrenaline, makes a person feel like a big and bad dude. It's a rush. Take away his remote control and force the guy to leave his recliner to change the channel, and maybe he won't.

The anti crowd may be right in that one small point. Not having the hurt buttons around may deter a few killings, but not that many, and certainly not enough to justify the blanket restrictions. Strangers are still murdered every day out in public with clubs and kitchen utensils.


Off topic, but something I wanted to share.
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Old March 2, 2017, 05:36 PM   #99
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Drawing a handgun in time to hit an attacker with bullets at all is probably luck in the first place. Would be for me. Had a micro fracture of a rib once that barely showed on x ray. Could not move!.....I shall take aim in the general vicinity of those should calamity strike.
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Old March 2, 2017, 10:18 PM   #100
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Drawing a handgun in time to hit an attacker with bullets at all is probably luck in the first place.
If you are ambushed by a charging attacker who is closing from close range, you will find just that.
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