I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws?

DirtyHarold · July 7, 2019, 05:54 PM

Hello ladies and gents, I'll try and keep this short...

Back in February I bought a S&W 460 Mag 7.5" Performance Center revolver, and right off the bat I had to send it in to have the barrel replaced because the finish on it was uneven, there were tool marks and dents on it, was not at all up to par for an $1,800 gun. They replaced it and I was happy, for the time being.

I finally get a chance to take it out and shoot it and within 15 rds it had 3 failures to fire because the action would not rotate the cylinder, and also I had to pry out the spent casings with pliers (factory Hornady 460 mag ammo). Now I'm pretty angry, because how did this gun even make it past their quality check? So I send it back and wait another 8 weeks to get it back. They ended up replacing literally everything but the frame, including the barrel when they JUST put a new one on it.

Once I had a chance to shoot it again, and at least in 10 rounds of 460 it seemed to work (didn't have time to shoot a bunch), but then I go to clean it and realize that something is still off. First of all, when I pass a brass brush through the barrel it sounds like zipping a zipper. Also, its impossible to get all the fouling out of it. Upon closer inspection, there are these deep radial marks along the entire length of the barrel. See pic in post below.

I don't want to to send it in and wait another 8 weeks for them to "fix" it again and send it back. I would rather them send me a new one so I can just be over this, or do a buyback, if thats even a thing that they can do.

I am so incredibly angry that this is what I have to go through for buying this gun. This is the most expensive gun S&W offers and its their PC line which is supposed to be the cream of the crop. Can anyone give me advice of legal action I may be able to take or point me to where I can get legal advice?

Thanks for listening.

DirtyHarold · July 7, 2019, 05:55 PM

Pictures of the barrel. It’s like this down all 7.5 inches of rifling.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jaguarxk120 · July 7, 2019, 06:01 PM

I thought the S&W barrels were rifled using a EDM process.
The inside should have a matt finish, but not what your picture shows.
Call them back, they will make it right.

smee78 · July 7, 2019, 06:30 PM

I would send S&W an email and send them the picture you posted and let them fix the gun right. I also would express your dissatisfaction with their product and see what they can do for you. I do agree that the gun they sent back should of been perfect after your first problem you had.

RAfiringline · July 7, 2019, 06:41 PM

I wouldn't want the gun fixed - I would want a new one of the expected quality, or a refund.

JERRYS. · July 7, 2019, 06:51 PM

I don't know what to say except the Q.C. was absent the day that got rubber stamped.

GeauxTide · July 7, 2019, 07:01 PM

I had a boat replaced, but I did all my communicating with them FIRST. When I didn't get the proper response, I posted my letter to them on their Facebook page. My boat was replaced in two weeks. The Marketing folks always respond to complaints more aggressively than Customer Service.

woody wood · July 7, 2019, 08:04 PM

Shoot it,if it groups good than so what. If it groups poor send it back. My 500 has around 1000 rounds- never guessed to look at the lands.shoots better than i can,and im a good shot!

mehavey · July 7, 2019, 09:24 PM

Tubbs' Final Finish ain't gonna fix that one (Wow

)
I'd thought I'd seen everything . . . .

briandg · July 7, 2019, 10:10 PM

Wait. Can you explain how there are reamer marks on both the lands and the grooves, especially considering that smith has started using an electrochemical rifling process on most of their barrels, including those for revolvers?

Those grooves should never show drill or reamer marks. It's not possible. Even button rifling would iron it out some.

Carmady · July 7, 2019, 10:59 PM

That bore looks like the inside of a silo.

T. O'Heir · July 8, 2019, 09:40 AM

"...the most expensive gun S&W offers..." Just proves that you don't always get what you pay for. "Performance Center" apparently has nothing to do with having QC.
It doesn't appear that Smith's Performance Center has any different warrantee than any other Smith product.
"...firearm lemon laws?..." That'd depend on your State.
"...groups good...groups poor..." With what ammo fired by whom?

Onward Allusion · July 8, 2019, 11:20 AM

Damn, that's messed up. I can't get over the barrel's innards. I have NEVER seen a barrel cut like that. It looks like someone tried to tap the barrel!

Contact S&W again, but this time via USPS. Spend $20 and express mail it. Include photos and a detailed description.

Brutus · July 8, 2019, 11:51 AM

Smith is more concerned with making precision locks.

Cheapshooter · July 8, 2019, 12:36 PM

I've never had those problems with Hi-Point or Heritage!��

TruthTellers · July 8, 2019, 01:05 PM

That bore looks ribbed for the bullet's pleasure.

You had the case issue months ago where they were all scratched, now they're sending you a "fixed" gun with a bore looking like that... I wouldn't even bother giving them another chance to not fix it right. Tell them you don't believe they can fix it and want a refund.

Write a letter to the company executives, when on the phone demand that you speak with them.

Onward Allusion · July 8, 2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:

I've never had those problems with Hi-Point or Heritage!

That's just mean. Having a bunch of Hi-Points, I will have to agree with you, though.

Lohman446 · July 8, 2019, 01:33 PM

Gonna tell you I'm normally the guy who goes "OMG you guys are whiny and cannot expect perfection" when I see these types of posts. That being said those photos show a situation that merits some type of explanation and truth be told even as you articulated it it took the pictures to really grab my attention.

I think others are right. Time to send the pictures in or use some medium that allows you to convey them. What you have there is shameful. I'm also a believer in "give them a chance to make it right" (despite the fact you did) and if I was looking at that would be totally on board with "whatever it took" to make it right with the customer. That is frankly unacceptable that it left that way.

HighValleyRanch · July 8, 2019, 01:39 PM

THREE times to get it right and failed??
I would expect Smith and Wesson to bend over backwards to compensate the customer for the agony.
In other words, not just fix the problem, but extend a further gesture of compensation!

DirtyHarold · July 8, 2019, 05:21 PM

My big thing is I don’t want to wait another 8 weeks. They probably won’t even expedite, I asked them to last time and nothing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Road_Clam · July 8, 2019, 06:18 PM

So I had a look at my S&W 460 XVR PC and I have the same process markings in my bore as the OP is observing. It does not appear that I have the said marks in my rifling though. My rifling looks smooth. Not worried about this as my 12" 460 shoots outstanding out to 200 meters. I tried taking some borescope photos but they didnt come out so well. I would have to say that my bore marks are slightly less than what I see in the op's pic. I have about 400 rounds through my 460 so it's possible that there is a period of time where fired rounds "lap" the barrels' machined surfaces.

Waspinator · July 8, 2019, 06:42 PM

I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.

It almost looks as if a rifling broach was chattering while going through. But other posters have said they use EDM now. Using EDM can leave manufacturing marks... but not like that in my experience. Also, looking at the right side raised land, it looks as if those marks are cut all the way through. See how they almost look like a bunch of beads or wire ends placed side-by-side? That is cut through.

I wouldn't continue to fire that gun no matter how many people tell you to " just shoot it and don't worry"... Because, that my friend , is worrying.

**Edit: I see that is actually ECM, not EDM, that they are using. I'm not familar with that techniuqe.. so perhaps that is why I am so confused looking at it. That said, I just did a search for ECM rifling and did not see any image look like that OP's picture. I still say don't shoot that thing.

Road_Clam · July 8, 2019, 07:40 PM

Instead of everyone sending the OP into a panic, how about we put this to bed in a educated manner and initiate a phone call to S&W for the facts ?

Bill DeShivs · July 8, 2019, 09:03 PM

Rather than a phone call, I have had much better luck with emailing S&W, and you can include the pictures in the email.

buck460XVR · July 9, 2019, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waspinator

I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.

Not being a machinist, but being fairly intelligent and knowing how things work, I've been scratching my head too, and waiting for someone with a valid explanation. The marks seem to continue from the lands to the grooves with marks on the side of the lands too? Almost like it was polished with a wire brush harder than the barrel material. Almost like it could it be lead fouling and those are the marks from the brass brush? Again, I'm baffled.

I too would send pics to S&W. Their customer service is better than that. I too would wait for conformation from them as to whether the gun is safe to shoot. I would think that grooves like that perpendicular to bullet travel would quickly contribute to severe fouling, whether lead or copper and not pnly degrade accuracy and performance, but increase the already high pressure even more.

July 7, 2019, 05:54 PM	#1
DirtyHarold Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2015 Posts: 158	I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws? Hello ladies and gents, I'll try and keep this short... Back in February I bought a S&W 460 Mag 7.5" Performance Center revolver, and right off the bat I had to send it in to have the barrel replaced because the finish on it was uneven, there were tool marks and dents on it, was not at all up to par for an $1,800 gun. They replaced it and I was happy, for the time being. I finally get a chance to take it out and shoot it and within 15 rds it had 3 failures to fire because the action would not rotate the cylinder, and also I had to pry out the spent casings with pliers (factory Hornady 460 mag ammo). Now I'm pretty angry, because how did this gun even make it past their quality check? So I send it back and wait another 8 weeks to get it back. They ended up replacing literally everything but the frame, including the barrel when they JUST put a new one on it. Once I had a chance to shoot it again, and at least in 10 rounds of 460 it seemed to work (didn't have time to shoot a bunch), but then I go to clean it and realize that something is still off. First of all, when I pass a brass brush through the barrel it sounds like zipping a zipper. Also, its impossible to get all the fouling out of it. Upon closer inspection, there are these deep radial marks along the entire length of the barrel. See pic in post below. I don't want to to send it in and wait another 8 weeks for them to "fix" it again and send it back. I would rather them send me a new one so I can just be over this, or do a buyback, if thats even a thing that they can do. I am so incredibly angry that this is what I have to go through for buying this gun. This is *the most expensive gun S&W offers* and its their PC line which is supposed to be the cream of the crop. Can anyone give me advice of legal action I may be able to take or point me to where I can get legal advice? Thanks for listening.

July 7, 2019, 06:30 PM	#4
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	I would send S&W an email and send them the picture you posted and let them fix the gun right. I also would express your dissatisfaction with their product and see what they can do for you. I do agree that the gun they sent back should of been perfect after your first problem you had. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are

July 7, 2019, 06:41 PM	#5
RAfiringline Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Location: western US Posts: 290	I wouldn't want the gun fixed - I would want a new one of the expected quality, or a refund. __________________ Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. You need to take your time, in a hurry. Wyatt Earp

July 7, 2019, 08:04 PM	#8
woody wood Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2010 Location: minnesota Posts: 271	Shoot it,if it groups good than so what. If it groups poor send it back. My 500 has around 1000 rounds- never guessed to look at the lands.shoots better than i can,and im a good shot! __________________ nra member proud father and patriot

July 7, 2019, 10:10 PM	#10
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Wait. Can you explain how there are reamer marks on both the lands and the grooves, especially considering that smith has started using an electrochemical rifling process on most of their barrels, including those for revolvers? Those grooves should never show drill or reamer marks. It's not possible. Even button rifling would iron it out some. __________________ None.

July 7, 2019, 05:55 PM	#2
DirtyHarold Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2015 Posts: 158	Pictures of the barrel. It’s like this down all 7.5 inches of rifling. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

July 7, 2019, 06:01 PM	#3
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	I thought the S&W barrels were rifled using a EDM process. The inside should have a matt finish, but not what your picture shows. Call them back, they will make it right.

July 7, 2019, 06:51 PM	#6
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,968	I don't know what to say except the Q.C. was absent the day that got rubber stamped.

July 7, 2019, 07:01 PM	#7
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	I had a boat replaced, but I did all my communicating with them FIRST. When I didn't get the proper response, I posted my letter to them on their Facebook page. My boat was replaced in two weeks. The Marketing folks always respond to complaints more aggressively than Customer Service.

July 7, 2019, 09:24 PM	#9
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	Tubbs' Final Finish ain't gonna fix that one (Wow ) I'd thought I'd seen everything . . . .

July 7, 2019, 10:59 PM	#11
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	That bore looks like the inside of a silo.

July 8, 2019, 09:40 AM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...the most expensive gun S&W offers..." Just proves that you don't always get what you pay for. "Performance Center" apparently has nothing to do with having QC. It doesn't appear that Smith's Performance Center has any different warrantee than any other Smith product. "...firearm lemon laws?..." That'd depend on your State. "...groups good...groups poor..." With what ammo fired by whom? __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 8, 2019, 11:20 AM	#13
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	Damn, that's messed up. I can't get over the barrel's innards. I have NEVER seen a barrel cut like that. It looks like someone tried to tap the barrel! Contact S&W again, but this time via USPS. Spend $20 and express mail it. Include photos and a detailed description. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

July 8, 2019, 11:51 AM	#14
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	Smith is more concerned with making precision locks. __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

July 8, 2019, 12:36 PM	#15
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	I've never had those problems with Hi-Point or Heritage!�� __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

July 8, 2019, 01:05 PM	#16
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	That bore looks ribbed for the bullet's pleasure. You had the case issue months ago where they were all scratched, now they're sending you a "fixed" gun with a bore looking like that... I wouldn't even bother giving them another chance to not fix it right. Tell them you don't believe they can fix it and want a refund. Write a letter to the company executives, when on the phone demand that you speak with them. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

July 8, 2019, 01:33 PM	#18
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Gonna tell you I'm normally the guy who goes "OMG you guys are whiny and cannot expect perfection" when I see these types of posts. That being said those photos show a situation that merits some type of explanation and truth be told even as you articulated it it took the pictures to really grab my attention. I think others are right. Time to send the pictures in or use some medium that allows you to convey them. What you have there is shameful. I'm also a believer in "give them a chance to make it right" (despite the fact you did) and if I was looking at that would be totally on board with "whatever it took" to make it right with the customer. That is frankly unacceptable that it left that way. __________________ A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)

July 8, 2019, 01:39 PM	#19
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	THREE times to get it right and failed?? I would expect Smith and Wesson to bend over backwards to compensate the customer for the agony. In other words, not just fix the problem, but extend a further gesture of compensation! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

July 8, 2019, 05:21 PM	#20
DirtyHarold Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2015 Posts: 158	I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws? My big thing is I don’t want to wait another 8 weeks. They probably won’t even expedite, I asked them to last time and nothing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by DirtyHarold; July 8, 2019 at 05:47 PM.

July 8, 2019, 06:18 PM	#21
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	So I had a look at my S&W 460 XVR PC and I have the same process markings in my bore as the OP is observing. It does not appear that I have the said marks in my rifling though. My rifling looks smooth. Not worried about this as my 12" 460 shoots outstanding out to 200 meters. I tried taking some borescope photos but they didnt come out so well. I would have to say that my bore marks are slightly less than what I see in the op's pic. I have about 400 rounds through my 460 so it's possible that there is a period of time where fired rounds "lap" the barrels' machined surfaces. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

July 8, 2019, 06:42 PM	#22
Waspinator Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2013 Location: Connecticut Posts: 517	I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in. It almost looks as if a rifling broach was chattering while going through. But other posters have said they use EDM now. Using EDM can leave manufacturing marks... but not like that in my experience. Also, looking at the right side raised land, it looks as if those marks are cut all the way through. See how they almost look like a bunch of beads or wire ends placed side-by-side? That is cut through. I wouldn't continue to fire that gun no matter how many people tell you to " just shoot it and don't worry"... Because, that my friend , is worrying. *Edit: I see that is actually ECM, not EDM, that they are using. I'm not familar with that techniuqe.. so perhaps that is why I am so confused looking at it. That said, I just did a search for ECM rifling and did not see any image look like that OP's picture. I still say don't shoot that thing. Last edited by Waspinator; July 8, 2019 at 06:48 PM.*

July 8, 2019, 07:40 PM	#23
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	Instead of everyone sending the OP into a panic, how about we put this to bed in a educated manner and initiate a phone call to S&W for the facts ? __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

July 8, 2019, 09:03 PM	#24
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Rather than a phone call, I have had much better luck with emailing S&W, and you can include the pictures in the email. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com