Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by seeker two

Well....the 250 will definitely fire when the firing pin is struck by the hammer.....

Now you only need to explain how it could be possible for the hammer to be cocked far enough to strike the firing pin with adequate force, with the firing pin block disengaged, as the result of a drop.

[TunnelRat]

P250 never sold well. I get some people on here like it and I have no personal problem with the pistol, but sales are what keep a product alive.

[Independent George]

The 250 never sold well because it's a DAO pistol in a market that already views even DA/SA as obsolete. Which is a shame, because that was an outstanding DA trigger, but I understand it completely; I wouldn't have wanted it as a duty gun, either.

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[JJNA]

I don't know why gun companies can't make a production DA/SA pistol with a DA pull like a Sig P250. I have the P250 in several calibers and configurations, including 22LR and 380ACP, and it's just the best production semi-auto with DAO trigger bar none. The trigger is easy to reach, smooth, relatively light, consistent, and breaks well. I always preferred the P250 to the P320 for any purpose other than just shooting at the range.

In any case, I hope the Sig P320 upgrade doesn't require any grip module modification, as I have many of them for both the P320 and the P250. I keep reading that the frame will be modified - I hope that's just the serialized fire control part.

[JohnKSa]

I have the P250 in several calibers and configurations, including 22LR and 380ACP, and it's just the best production semi-auto with DAO trigger bar none.

I had a similar impression of the P250 trigger and was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the trigger was terrible.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I... was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the [P250] trigger was terrible.

IMHO it's great for what it is... a simulation of a well-broken-in DA revolver trigger. I like it better than the DA stage in almost every DA/SA auto pistol I've tried, except perhaps the upper-end EAA/Tanfo Witness pistols and the Wilson Combat versions of the Beretta 92FS.

The problem is that this simply wasn't what most folks in the auto pistol market were expecting. SIG had the bad fortune to release an excellent long-stroke DAO system at a time when the market was moving away from this type of trigger—e.g. the S&W metal-frame DAO line is extinct, the Beretta 92D is moribund, and SIG themselves no longer seem to be pushing their DAK system.

[Independent George]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I had a similar impression of the P250 trigger and was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the trigger was terrible.

It's because most people hardly shoot DA anymore, or even know how; the long trigger pull is seen as a defect instead of a deliberate design decision.

Try bringing up a Kahr, and just count how often people talk about the 'terrible' trigger. I even remember one YouTube reviewer talking about how impossible it was to find the break to stage the trigger on.

Granted, it is harder to shoot DA accurately, and requires a LOT of practice. I still like having it as a final, redundant safety system.

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[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Independent George

The 250 never sold well because it's a DAO pistol in a market that already views even DA/SA as obsolete. Which is a shame, because that was an outstanding DA trigger, but I understand it completely; I wouldn't have wanted it as a duty gun, either.

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They did not sell well because they beta tested them on paying consumers. There were IIRC 4-5 revision of the guns. The initial release had reliability problems. The caliber changes were vaporware for years. They failed the ATF pistol trials. The list goes on and on. It really should not be a surprise there are issues with the P320 which was built off the P250 platform.

As for the trigger it is smooth but too long. The trigger is also different between different versions of the P250. Some are better than others. They also initally sold for way too much money and LEO and were not going to switch from Glocks. Cost was a huge factor. People only bought them once they became $300 NIB guns.

Personally I waited a long time to get a P320 hoping that the bugs would be worked out before I got one. Some of them were some of them clearly were not. Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.

Look at the 556, P238, Sig P250, MPX etc... All of them had had issues when released.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by WVsig

Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.

Look at the 556, P238, Sig P250, MPX etc... All of them had had issues when released.

Don't forget their entry into the 1911 market. SIG even managed to muck up a 100-year old design. They blamed the problems with the first generation on Caspian, who supplied the frames and slides. Curiously, Caspian subsequently sold the unused remainder of those slides and frames as kits, and I haven't heard of a single person who built a 1911 on those kits who had a problem.

Then, after a complete shut-down of several months, they brought out the second generation ... and still had problems. I think SIG 1911s generally function now, but are they on the third or fourth generation?

[TunnelRat]

Buddy of mine bought a SIG 1911 a couple years ago. It wouldn't reliably feed ball ammo. I tried to get him to send it in, but I don't think he ever did.

Some of the irony here is that all things considered, the P320 was one of the more successful designs on release for SIG in terms of amount of problems. And yet here we are.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Don't forget their entry into the 1911 market. SIG eve managed to muck up a 100-year old design. They blamed the problems with the first generation on Caspian, who supplied the frames and slides. Curiously, Caspian subsequently sold the unused remainder of those slides and frames as kits, and I haven't heard of a single person who built a 1911 on those kits who had a problem.

Then, after a complete shut-down of several months, they brought out the second generation ... and still had problems. I think SIG 1911s generally function now, but are they on the third or fourth generation?

Yeah I owned a Gen 1 GSR which had to have a extractor replaced. Sig did that under warranty. The extractor was walking out. Other than that it was a tack driver and was extremely accurate. Caspian slide and frame with a Storm Lake barrel but Sig could not assemble them properly. These days they do seem to run better.

It is a lot like the P238 which was also a Colt design which Sig could not get right. Took years to get that one right but current production seems to be reliable.

[JJNA]

So.. buy Sig products only after a few years of introduction.

* I was bitten by this problem also. I bought the P226SAO Elite as soon as it came out - had to go back twice to Sig due to a defective safety (actually safety spring, which is a weak circular design).

[Laz]

the P238 which was also a Colt design

I don't understand why the P238 is considered a clone of the Mustang. They are both single-action .380s of a similar size that bear a resemblance to a small 1911 but their method of locking up couldn't be more different. A Mustang locks with locking lugs on top of the barrel locking into recesses in the slide ala 1911 or a Browning Hi Power. The P238 locks the breech into the slide like other Sigs, Ruger, Glock and many others. One reason the Mustang has a rounded slide and the Sig is squared off. They seem quite different to me and I think it's a major difference.

I prefer the Sig.

Not that I am disagreeing with the overall point. The P290 was another model that took time and revision to get right and was also hampered by too high an MSRP when first introduced.

[WVsig]

I don't understand why the P238 is considered a clone of the Mustang. They are both single-action .380s of a similar size that bear a resemblance to a small 1911 but their method of locking up couldn't be more different. A Mustang locks with locking lugs on top of the barrel locking into recesses in the slide ala 1911 or a Browning Hi Power. The P238 locks the breech into the slide like other Sigs, Ruger, Glock and many others. One reason the Mustang has a rounded slide and the Sig is squared off. They seem quite different to me and I think it's a major difference.

I prefer the Sig.

Not that I am disagreeing with the overall point. The P290 was another model that took time and revision to get right and was also hampered by too high an MSRP when first introduced.

It is considered a clone because it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt to make the P238. There are a few differences in the guns like the locking mechanism you mentioned but it is a clone based on the Colt.

[Aguila Blanca]

You seriously don't think this:

Sig P238:


is a clone of this?

Colt Mustang:


Just look at the locations and shapes of the controls. Even the grips interchange.

[Laz]

it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt

I have heard that many times also. I have also heard differently. I've never confirmed it either way. I'm glad they both are available, though.

[JohnKSa]

Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.

In all fairness, it's not that uncommon for new firearms to have teething problems. SIG does seem to have had more of their fair share of problems lately though.

It is considered a clone because it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt to make the P238.

I'm not an experts on patents and such, but my guess is that the design was old enough that it was no longer protected. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the topic will chime in.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

In all fairness, it's not that uncommon for new firearms to have teething problems. SIG does seem to have had more of their fair share of problems lately though.I'm not an experts on patents and such, but my guess is that the design was old enough that it was no longer protected. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the topic will chime in.

I am not sure it has ever been confirmed but again IIRC there was talk about Lics and even anpurchase on Colt tooling. Either way the P238 is based on the Colt which was based on and at one time produced by Star. There is some parts compatiblity between the guns.

As for Sig and new production products I cannot name one is the last 10 years that did not have teething problems beta tested by paying consumers.

[dgludwig]

There are a few differences in the guns like the locking mechanism you mentioned...

That's a pretty big difference, imo, and the only difference that could make a difference, especially when you consider everything else about the two pistols that could be changed (barrel, grips, sights, magazine, etc.) and not maintain the overall configuration and concept of the design and purpose of them both.

[seeker_two]

If anything, the 238/938 resembles the Star Firestar more than any other design.

[mr bolo]

this could easily happen to a police if they ever have a struggle with a suspect, or if the suspect tries to grab the officer's gun and it falls during the fight.

the officer could be holding the pistol and get knocked to the ground by a violent mob and the pistol could go off when it impacts on the pavement.

most people arent going to drop their gun in normal situations but it can happen during a confrontation.

[reynolds357]

If your weapon is out, you don't fight. If a perp physically attacks an officer with a drawn weapon, it is considered an attempt to disarm and the use of deadly force is the proper response.

[arquebus357]

Not sure if this was asked before...I couldn't find it.

But:

If the Dallas PD drop tested all available pistols in this class, how many others would fail ? It seems a bit unfair to Sig. No, I don't own one. I can't afford them.

I'll bet my little Star BM with it's inertia type firing pin would easily pass the test with the safety off.

[JoeSixpack]

It's hard to say, I mean I personally would love to it if someone did extensive drop tests on guns and I could browse the reports.. that would be awesome.

But.. you don't know what you don't know.. We know the p320 will go off if dropped right so thats all you can deal with at the here and now.

Look how long it took for someone to realize a problem with the Milpro & 24/7 line of guns from Taurus, I believe those lines was over 10 years old.
The Milpro I know had at least 3 generations and was popular.

Their drop failures was similar to the p320's (trigger actually being pulled to the rear)

[balance]

If your weapon is out, you don't fight. If a perp physically attacks an officer with a drawn weapon, it is considered an attempt to disarm and the use of deadly force is the proper response.

Police officers, like everyone else, are not to be thought of as being perfect in regards to handling firearms safely. There is a lot of data out there to support this, including that the only lawsuit I know of against Sig due to the P320 not being drop safe, is from a police officer who dropped a P320 and got shot in the leg.

I really don't understand the "I just won't drop my gun" comments on this thread. It has been stated plenty of times already that most people don't plan on dropping their guns, but it still happens anyway.

What exactly was Sig thinking, not putting a drop safety on the trigger? I too would question the experience of any manufacturer that decided to take out a safety feature used by practically all other competitive and comparative striker fired pistol designs, and then ends up with an unsafe pistol. Did they not know what that lever was there for on their competitor's pistols? Did they know to test that their design was safe, without that lever? Did they know how to test it?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse, for any pistol in this era of modern pistols, to fire simply from a drop of two and a half feet. If a problem is found, it should be announced immediately, and should then be recalled immediately. From what I've seen and read on this topic, there are questions whether it was announced immediately after Sig was made aware of the issue, and it still has not been recalled yet.

I've seen people drop loaded pistols right in front of me before. At this point, I don't want to share a class, or even a range with someone who is using a Sig P320. I'm amazed that anyone, especially in a gun forum, wouldn't see how bad of an issue this is. It isn't going to hurt gun rights to get pistols that fire from a two and a half foot drop, off the streets. What is going to hurt them, is an innocent person getting shot for no reason by a pistol that could (and in my opinion, should) be considered unsafe. Not to mention what happens to the person or people getting shot.

It has already happened.

As to the people who are arguing that no pistol is drop safe, I ask, please, show me what it takes to set any other modern striker fired pistol off without pulling the trigger. I'll wait.

I wonder how many people, after seeing the videos of the P320 going off, have been trying to do the same with pistols that Sig would call their competition? Due to the lack of reports, I'd go out on a limb and assume that nobody else has been able to mimic the results on another design.