The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 9, 2018, 09:11 PM   #1
'88Scrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 346
7.7x58 Jap

I recently acquired a very nice Japanese Type 99 in 7.7mm (it has the dust cover and everything!) but did not take into account the scarcity of the ammo. Who makes 7.7 commercially?

I reload shotgun shells but don't currently have the equipment or know how to reload rifle rounds.
__________________
BOOM
'88Scrat is offline  
Old April 9, 2018, 09:43 PM   #2
Archie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2000
Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear
Posts: 2,166
Hornady makes loaded ammunition in 7.7 Arisaka. I can't find anyone in stock at the moment.

Graf & Sons have both Norma and Precision. Norma is expensive, Precision is less spendy, but I've never had any experience with them.

Reloading is a bit better. Norma and PPU both make brass (haven't seen PPU ammo, which surprises me a bit) and bullets are the same as .303 Brit (.311"). Powder and primers are nearly universal for cartridge size.

Commonly, the round is not much loaded for hunting purposes. Too many other easily available rounds around. But I have a couple guns who used to be owned by some special friends...
__________________
There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus.
Archie

Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/
Archie is offline  
Old April 10, 2018, 09:20 AM   #3
TRX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2008
Posts: 282
I use Prvi brass and Speer bullets. Lee has the dies.

At one time 7.62x54R was cheap enough to make it worthwhile to pull the bullets and use them in 7.7. For a while I was shooting a Japanese rifle with ammunition made of Serbian brass, Russian bullets, Finnish powder, and Korean primers.
TRX is offline  
Old April 10, 2018, 09:53 AM   #4
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,335
the 7.7mm Jap is the .303 British, with a rimless case. The bullets, powders, velocities and pressures are the same, or virtually identical. What you can do with one, you can do with the other. The only real difference is the case itself, and the rifles you find each in.

Since you aren't set up for rifle reloading, I won't bother to go over forming 7.7mm brass from .30-06 cases, but its can be done, and often was as the only way to get usable 7.7 Jap brass.

Today the situation is better, new brass can be found (but tis not cheap), I've gotten Graf brass at gun shows (though not lately, since I haven't been looking)

the "full boat" type 99 will have the receiver dust cover, the monopod, and the AA sights. And an intact "Mum" will increase the collector value.

Later production rifles did away with the AA sight (and I think at some point, the flimsy monopod) , and troops often did away with the dustcover, supposedly because it rattled and gave them away when on patrol. Personally, I think it was also because they could, without imparing the function of the rifle.

If you have an Arisaka in military trim, there is one "accessory" that is vital, and more so, in my opinion than the dust cover, and that's the bayonet.

If you don't have one, get one, the rifle just isn't "complete" without one.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 11, 2018, 01:09 PM   #5
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 7,283
You did well !!!

Quote:
(it has the dust cover and everything!)
Consider yourself lucky, to have the mud-cover as many wound up rusting in the battle field. .....

Now then, does it have the sling, mono-pod, bayonet and the Mumm ???

At one point, I had about 500rds of original ammo in stripper clips. Many had chromed bore and mine was" a tack driver. ....

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 12:49 AM   #6
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,335
Quote:
Now then, does it have the sling, mono-pod, bayonet and the Mumm ???
Pretty rare to find an Arisaka with the correct sling on it. Bayonets are still out there, but are collectable too, and no where near as cheap as they used to be.

The dust cover and monopod often went away in the field, and always did if the rifle was in any degree sporterized. I have seen both for sale as replacement parts, so its possible to restore the rifle if you can get them.

early models of the type 99 had the "anti-aircraft sights", which had folding wings (bars) for calculating lead to aim at moving aircraft. This was dropped later in the production, to save cost and effort. Plus it was always of doubtful value...

They all HAD "mums", the Chrysanthemum symbol of the Emperor. After the war, stocks of surrendered rifles (mostly) had the mums ground off, or defaced in some manner. Surrendering a rifle with the Emperor's symbol intact was considered dishonorable. Information about who ground the mums. where and when varies widely. Some say it happened in Japan, by the Japanese under Japanese direction, some say in Japan under US direction some say US troops did it in the US when the rifles were imported, any or all of this might be true, no way to tell, unless you were there.

What is generally accepted is that an Arisaka with an intact Mum is considered a battlefield pick up (war trophy) and collectors generally pay more for that.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 01:18 PM   #7
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,944
"...the 7.7mm Jap is the .303 British..." No, it isn't. Different case altogether. Especially the rimless part of the 7.7 Jap. Only similarity is the bullet diameter.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd77x58japanesearisaka.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd303british.jpg
Norma loads 7.7 Jap. So does Precision Cartridge(Graf's) and XCaliber(via Ammoseek). All are using hunting bullets. Prvi makes the brass. Hornady only makes it in their custom shop and not regularly. Isn't listed on their site at all.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old April 13, 2018, 03:26 PM   #8
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
the 7.7mm Jap is the .303 British, with a rimless case.
Have some more coffee.
thallub is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 08:48 AM   #9
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,025
I shoot a original 7.7 and have killed deer with it with a hornady 174 RN at 2400 fps. for cases you can use 8mm mauser cases, full lenth sized and then loaded. the 8mm case is 57mm long and the 7.7 case is 58 mm long.
eastbank is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 01:24 PM   #10
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,862
7.7 x 58 Army was for all reality a 303.

Quote:
7.7x56mmR,
Was the exact copy.

All re-loading for 303 works for both.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old April 18, 2018, 03:36 PM   #11
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,025
the 303 british is NOT THE SAME AS THE 7.7 JAPANESE, no where close. just take a look in cartridges of the world, the only thing they have in common is a .311-312 diameter bullet. and the british army rifles are much weaker than the type 99 Japanese army rifles with both in good condition.
eastbank is offline  
Old April 19, 2018, 12:18 PM   #12
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,862
Well my Hornady books says they are similar in power to the 303 British.

Dimensions are close, the 7.7 has a bit more case capacity as its longer. Same powder change has the same velocity. Common powders work in both. The 303 is listed as a bit faster with the same 174 grain bullet.

The action has nothing to do with it. Its the cartridge performance that does and the
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old April 19, 2018, 05:04 PM   #13
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,025
neither were made for the reloader in mind as they were war rifles. but with the bring backs and later imported by the thousands and cheap, they were sporterzied into hunting rifles and some of the 7.7,s were converted to 3006 necked up to the .311-.312 bullets. the 99 Japanese rifles can be loaded up way more than the british mk-3-4,s by a lot(rear lug verse two front lugs also the 99 handles gas better). I have several of both and they are in ex condition that I reload for and believe me the mk-3-4,s is nowhere as strong at the 99 Japanese. in the mk-3-4,s I have found that the chambers are over size and some by a lot and you must be very carefull when sizing the cases as they separate quite soon 2-3 loadings.
eastbank is offline  
Old April 19, 2018, 06:11 PM   #14
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,862
No disagreements at all on the ability of the 7.7 action.

Loaded and performance per original loadings was close to the same.

Thickness and ability of original cases to handle more pressure?

30-06 converted would have that.

And no question on gas path safety and how important that is for that type of gun.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old April 20, 2018, 05:53 AM   #15
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,025
I think the very late war 99,s are what made the reloading manuals go with low pressure loads. PO ACKLY said that the 99 Japanese rifles were very hard to blow up,and stood up to 98 mausers and springfields in the blow up tests he did. I have sectioned unfired 7.7-8x57- 308-3006 cases and they all were very close and you needed a 8x lupe to see and difference in them. there were reasons the mk-3-4,s had big chambers, they wanted the rifles to work with cruddy ammo if needed, with no thoughts about reloading.
eastbank is offline  
Old April 20, 2018, 03:17 PM   #16
doofus47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,253
You could also fire form mauser 7.92x57 to become 7.7x58.

Arisaka type 99s are fun rifles, but... (just my opinion), the arisaka type 38 carbine is the most fun to shoot of the WW2 rifles that I've gotten my hands on.

Hornady does occasional runs of 7.7 Japanese and 6.5 Japanese. PCI (look at Grafs.com) does occasional runs as well. Norma loads up a 178 grain round nose for hunting that is pretty true to the sight ladder, but those are pricey rounds (like $2/bang).

I've taken mine out elk hunting a few times. Although I've yet to see an elk while carrying, I trust that cartridge to do the job if I do my part.
__________________
I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.
doofus47 is offline  
Old April 20, 2018, 06:43 PM   #17
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,025
as the 8x57 has a .323 dia bullet and the 7.7 has a .311-312, fire forming a 8x57 in a 7.7 would not be a good idea. I use 8x57 empty cases to make 7.7 Japanese by full lenth sizing empty 8x57 cases in a 7.7 sizing die, as they come out they can be loaded with .311-312 bullets and used with moderate loads.
eastbank is offline  
Old April 21, 2018, 02:24 AM   #18
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,335
Its not widely known, outside of historians and people with an interest in the subject, but a number of things in the Imperial Japanese military were "heavily influenced" (including directly copied) by European designs and organizations. The British had a large influence, particularly on the Japanese Navy. A couple of the Japanese battleships we sunk during WWII were built in Great Britain.

When Japan decided to adopt a larger round than the 6.5mm Arisaka, they looked at the .303 British, and in their own fashion, "made it Japanese".

They had their version of the Lewis gun, and for that, their 7.7mm was essentially identical to the .303 British, rimmed case and all.

Their version for other machine guns, and their rifles used a rimless case, but the bullets, and pressures, and velocities are the same as the .303 British.

Quote:
I think the very late war 99,s are what made the reloading manuals go with low pressure loads.
This is entirely possible, our loading manuals tend to be conservative when there are known examples of weaker rifles out there. And, by conservative I mean not going much, if any beyond what the round is spec'd for.

The "late war" type 99s are a subject of some confusion. There were type 99s made in some of the arsenals that are every bit as sound as those produced earlier, but aren't as well finished and lack non-essential features found in the early production guns. There are also "type 99s" that were training and drill rifles, converted to fire live ammo. Those, and the ones said to be made of cast iron are referred to as "last ditch" rifles, and they are considered unsafe to shoot.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 21, 2018, 12:45 PM   #19
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,862
And if you look at the basic data, the Japanese did not push their original load rounds that hard.

Can't blame the reloader manuals in keeping it toned down for that reason alone.

Liability would say don't go past OEM.

Add in the iffy ones and.... of course those should not be shot anyway.

And has anyone ever come up with a more mucked up a firearms procurement system (more like a crap shoot)? than the Japanese in WWII?
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old April 21, 2018, 12:59 PM   #20
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
And has anyone ever come up with a more mucked up a firearms procurement system (more like a crap shoot)? than the Japanese in WWII?
The Chinese in WWII, if such could be called a system.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old April 24, 2018, 01:19 PM   #21
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,862
Well as a well sliced and diced up country before, I would call it having to make do.

As a well organized (errrrrrr) belligerent from the git go, the Japanese were stunningly inept.

And while I am and many American families truly grateful, the amazingly awful shooting at Taffy 3?
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old April 24, 2018, 02:37 PM   #22
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
As a well organized (errrrrrr) belligerent from the git go, the Japanese were stunningly inept.
Considering the staggering changes Japan went through between 1868 and the onset of WW II, it is pretty amazing that they accomplished anything at all ...... consider that they went from a moribund feudal society ..... largely agrarian, with largely iron age tech..... subject to periodic famines and plagues that developed countries has not seen since the end of the Renaissance ...... to a genuine world power capable of constructing the most powerful weapons on earth at the time.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old April 25, 2018, 12:21 AM   #23
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,335
Quote:
As a well organized (errrrrrr) belligerent from the git go, the Japanese were stunningly inept.
this is a yes and no kind of thing, depending on what you look at, specifically. WE (the Allies) were also more than a bit ..inept.. on numerous occasions, and fields (tactics, doctrine, etc.)

One place where the US does shine, (a little) is that we tried hard to achieve basic levels of standardization, both within and across the services. Sometimes, we even managed to actually DO it...

Our small arms were much better standardized than the Japanese, or even the Germans, who had standards but also used about every thing they captured, if it still worked, and in some cases, (such as with the SVT 40) they captured enough to equip entire units for which they produced 7.62x54R ammo (and German language training manuals, etc..)

Every nation has produced competent commanders, and some outstanding ones. Also every nation has produced its share of commanders who managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The Japanese used what, to us, seems a bewildering array of rifle/machinegun rounds, in 6.5 & 7.7mm calibers. From the outside it sure looks like it must have been a nightmare. Upon reflection I think that from the inside, it wasn't so much a nightmare, as a persistent migraine...

Supply screw ups happen to everyone who has supply. But they happen a bit less when there are only two choices to choose from, as opposed to 5 (or more).

Some years ago I watched a "Tales of the Gun" episode about Japanese small arms. They had examples of all the main types (including the rare SMG) and they were all fired using original ammo. What impressed me most was that out of all of them, the ONLY one that fired a full magazine /clip/feed strip, etc. was the Arisaka bolt action. Everyone one of the machine guns, SMG, and pistols all had at least one jam/misfeed/failure to fire, or other malfunction. Now it is possible that the museum guy doing the firing might have added to the situation, but I don't think it was a major factor.

On the other hand, it might explain the Japanese preference for cold steel, and the belief that the warrior spirit would overcome equipment deficiencies...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 25, 2018, 02:01 AM   #24
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 1,965
I've been interested in getting an Arisaka because they're seemingly the last good milsurp bolt action rifle that can be found for good prices, unlike Mosins. The issue is the ammo, it's not cheap and common like 7.62x54r is and reloading is the most sensible thing to do.

While 7.7 brass is more available now than it was decades ago, I still would go the route of re-sizing .30-06 cases because you can easily get .30-06 brass and for low prices and once you case form the 7.7, it's set for life and that brass will last your for a while.
__________________
Any good revolver > Any good semi auto
TruthTellers is online now  
Old April 26, 2018, 02:17 AM   #25
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,335
Quote:
I've been interested in getting an Arisaka because they're seemingly the last good milsurp bolt action rifle that can be found for good prices, unlike Mosins. The issue is the ammo, it's not cheap and common like 7.62x54r is and reloading is the most sensible thing to do.
Good prices? for now...don't take too long...

The issue has always been the ammo. Large numbers of Arisakas came to the US with returning GIs, and some were imported for civilian sale, but there was never any kind of large amount of Milsurp ammo for any of them. Its one reason you see so many of them converted to other calibers.

Moisins, on the other hand have been both unobtainable and cheap and common as dirt, along with the ammo. Before the end of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, Moisin Nagants, SKSs and all the other combloc arms were very rare in the US. About the only ones were war trophy bring backs, and while 7.62x54R ammo could be had, it was scarce and expensive, and, believe it or not, there was a time when nobody made 7.62x39mm ammo in the US and overseas sources were rare.

After the fall of Soviet Communism, the former Warsaw Pact nations dumped shiploads of rifles and ammo on the US market, dirt cheap. We got used to that. Then it basically ended, and as supplies dried up, up went prices.

All the milsurps went through that, or will. priced a Swiss K31 lately? Even the French guns are going up, along with Carcanos....

Making 7.7mm from .30-06 is a bit of a pain, but once done, is done. Use a tubing cutter to take off most of the extra length of the 06 case, it will save on trimming. once trimmed to nearly the right length, run them through the 7.7 sizer, then trim to final length. If they come out just a little short, they will still work. I did about 100rnds that way, before I found some actual 7.7mm brass. That was some years ago, and the 7.7 brass is still waiting in a bag....I might get around to using it, someday...maybe..
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09006 seconds with 10 queries