New Design for Low Recoil and Nozzle flip - Page 2

HisSoldier · May 26, 2018, 11:39 PM

IMO most of us who have never designed a new concept handgun do not deserve to comment harshly until we have, there are so many problems to overcome and any successful new concept designer deserves great respect.

That said, muzzle flip is not a major deal breaker for some of us, and of course low axis barrels have been around for well over a hundred years, the old FN 1900 for instance, I always thought it was annoying to have the barrel below the spring, but that's just me.

On the hammer retarding the "slide", if the greatest mass of the hammer was sprung so as to continue falling after ignition, that would slow down the rearward reaction quite a bit, I have often thought it would be fun to design a massive hammer coupled close to the rear of the slide to act as a retarding mechanism. Again, this make believe design would have the largest mass of the hammer continuing forward after ignition for a short time, the hammer would have to be in two parts to do that.

I suspect our new friend Erhan has been designing firearms for a while now.

Credos to you Erhan!

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 03:06 AM

High Valley Ranch

İ didnt wrote that !!

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 04:00 AM

Dear HisSoldier
Thank you very much...

stagpanther · May 27, 2018, 04:31 AM

Tangfolio/Arsenal--very interesting. So when is the 6" 10mm version coming out?

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 04:39 AM

Tangfolio/Arsenal--very interesting. So when is the 6" 10mm version coming out? what do you mean?

stagpanther · May 27, 2018, 05:13 AM

One of the videos seemed linked to the "strike one" pistol--sorry if I confused that with your product. : )

seeker_two · May 27, 2018, 11:30 AM

You may want to research the blueprints for the AMT Backup in 9mm, .40S&W, & .45ACP. It uses the mass of the hammer to regulate slide velocity and lockup.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 12:43 PM

Dear seeker two

yes,i check the mechanic now...The Hammer is in the frame in that gun..My Hammer is integrated in the slide...But using the mass of the Hammer is correct...The most blowbacks works with Hammer and,of course they use the Mass of it..İn this or other way..

BBarn · May 27, 2018, 02:38 PM

I appreciate you exploring various possibilities of gun design and sharing them. I like the incorporation of the hammer and pivot into the slide assembly. A challenge of that approach might be keeping the hammer from dropping as the slide stops suddenly against the barrel breech.

Can you elaborate a little on the details of the groove in the chamber? Does the brass expand slightly into the groove and slightly delay the slide opening by locking the case in the chamber until the pressure drops upon the bullet exiting the barrel? Or is their another explanation?

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 03:11 PM

Dear BBarn
No,your explanation is right....The case expand in this groove and seal the chamber.So all the pressure expands to the front.When the pressure is down,the oversized case loose a little more energy to get out of the chamber as a normal case....İf the grooves are to deep,the case stuck in the chamber...Thats why,i use two extractors..Because of different case materials and thickness,this is the only way to guarantee a clean cycle...

Jim Watson · May 27, 2018, 03:23 PM

I know of several chamber groove retarded blowbacks, although they do not have your other design elements.
They are ammunition sensitive. The Mann was surely calibrated for German ammunition. The Seecamp is calibrated for American ammunition. The Colt is made for .38 Special Midrange only. The High Standard T4 had difficulty with the variety of ammunition it might run into in NATO deployment. The Detonics' action was so hard as to break parts, even with a chamber groove.
I don't know what dual extractors will do for it. Many blowback actions will shoot well with no extractor at all.

Erhan · May 27, 2018, 03:32 PM

Dear Jim Watson

Normally you need the extractor only,if you want to empty the loaded chamber manually..But due this grooves,we need to pull the case out..One extractor loose sometimes the grip and failed.But two extractors dont leave the case in the chamber...
İts necessary,and sometimes,even in guns without grooves,the case can stuck in the chamber,due dirt or other problems..So,its also a good solution to prevent such misfunctions...

HighValleyRanch · May 27, 2018, 05:09 PM

I had to pull my faithful Seecamp out of my pocket to check. It does have an extractor for manual extraction of a round in the chamber. With American ammo it function flawlessly, but right, with European ammo it is finicky. Thanks Jim for explaining why.

Jim Watson · May 27, 2018, 07:08 PM

Good point, Erhan.
I know of people who will not carry a tip- up barrel Beretta because they could not quickly remove a misfired round or split case.

We will be watching for your reports when you start bending metal.

45_auto · May 28, 2018, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erhan

Dear 45 auto
Then another experiment...Load your semi auto,fix the slide with duct tape to the frame...And shoot
Now do the same without fixing...
Wich feel better?

I have a 1911 that has been modified with a slide latch to hold the slide closed if desired when using a suppressor. I really can't tell any difference in recoil with the slide fixed or free. But I'm probably not a very good sample, I also enjoy shooting big bore revolvers (.44 Mag, .45 ACP, .460 S&W, & .500 S&W) with substantially more recoil. The whole "felt recoil" thing to me is pretty insignificant. Recoil is what it is, you want a bigger, faster bullet in the same weight gun it's going to recoil more. Recoil is proportional to bullet momentum, nothing you are doing can change that. You have about .001 seconds (one thousandth of a second) to distribute the momentum while the bullet is in the barrel if you're using a separate slide and frame (we went through a lot of this in this old post from about 5 years ago: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...alculus&page=3, Post #52). It's easily possible to include different recoil spring constants, slide weights, travel distances, velocities, etc if you want to know exactly what your gun is doing. You can spread the recoil out over time a little tiny bit with slide movement but that's about it. If I understand it correctly, your design concept of locking the case into the frame/barrel assembly with your grooves will transfer proportionally more of the recoil into the frame than the slide as with most blowbacks. My experience has been that grip design and ergonomics have a far greater effect on felt recoil than the firing mechanism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erhan

İn the most semi autos it is not the spring wich stop the slide..İts the frame..The fast moving slide will be stopped by the frame...Now you have two slides. One total mass is 350 gram and moves with the same speed and stopped by the frame..The other moving mass is 200 gram ,same speed and stopped by a spring...Wich feel better?

No way to answer that. Most people probably couldn't tell any difference. Are the frames identical except for slide weight? If you're firing the same weight bullet at the same velocity, the guns will have the same recoil force. The gun that is moving the 200 gram slide at the same speed as the 350 gram slide obviously transferred more of the bullet momentum directly into the frame instead of the slide. Relatively speaking, you'd probably have a sharper, shorter recoil in the gun with the 200 gram slide. If that "feels" better to you than that's good. If it doesn't, it's bad. In the real world, it's probably so small as to be insignificant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erhan

Yes,you are right,felt recoil is relative...But Nozzle flip is not.We can see and test it better..Lets talk about nozzle flip then...

What do you want to discuss about it? My experience has been that a grip design that fits your hand and a correct and strong grip are the dominating factors by far until you start diverting some of your propellant gases into a compensator. Take a look at the competitive race guns and see what the winning shooters are using.

Not trying to take anything from your design, but the physics of semi-auto firearms have been pretty well understood for the last 120 years or so. Your gun is going to have the exact same recoil as any other gun of the same weight with the same barrel length firing the same bullet at the same velocity. You can fiddle a little bit with bore height and slide weight and spring constants but it's not going to make much difference. If it feels good to you, be happy!

seeker_two · May 28, 2018, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erhan

Dear seeker two

yes,i check the mechanic now...The Hammer is in the frame in that gun..My Hammer is integrated in the slide...But using the mass of the Hammer is correct...The most blowbacks works with Hammer and,of course they use the Mass of it..İn this or other way..

I'm not sure what advantage having the hammer incorporated into the slide gives to recoil control. Having a frame-mounted hammer would give better leverage to slow the slide velocity.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

makarov · June 4, 2018, 02:08 AM

The groove in the chamber probably does a fair bit. The last generation of Makarovs had a fluted chamber that worked the same way. I've only seen pictures of course. The used brass had noticeable rippled grooves going the lengthwise on the cases. Picture the wrapper on a cupcake and you've got a good visual. This guy's pistol is basically, a delayed blowback design. What is interesting is having the recoil spring and guide rod mounted above the barrel rather than simply coiled around the barrel itself. This shows the heavy guide rod being pulled back along with the "half slide" so the guide rod's mass has to be added to the slide for felt recoil. - he has a couple videos posted of him shooting it too. Give the guy credit for making this thing from scratch for sure.

Erhan · June 8, 2018, 04:46 AM

Dear Makarov
Thank you...You are right..All the moving mass produce the felt recoil..For the locked breech design we have to count Slider,barrel,rod....this is normally about 350 gram..My rod weigth is 50 gram and the slider 150 gram..total 200 gram...This makes a difference.

May 26, 2018, 11:39 PM	#26
HisSoldier Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2007 Location: Oregoncoast Posts: 1,793	IMO most of us who have never designed a new concept handgun do not deserve to comment harshly until we have, there are so many problems to overcome and any successful new concept designer deserves great respect. That said, muzzle flip is not a major deal breaker for some of us, and of course low axis barrels have been around for well over a hundred years, the old FN 1900 for instance, I always thought it was annoying to have the barrel below the spring, but that's just me. On the hammer retarding the "slide", if the greatest mass of the hammer was sprung so as to continue falling after ignition, that would slow down the rearward reaction quite a bit, I have often thought it would be fun to design a massive hammer coupled close to the rear of the slide to act as a retarding mechanism. Again, this make believe design would have the largest mass of the hammer continuing forward after ignition for a short time, the hammer would have to be in two parts to do that. I suspect our new friend Erhan has been designing firearms for a while now. Credos to you Erhan! __________________ CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

May 27, 2018, 03:06 AM	#27
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	High Valley Ranch İ didnt wrote that !! Last edited by Erhan; May 27, 2018 at 03:31 AM.

May 27, 2018, 04:31 AM	#29
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,777	Tangfolio/Arsenal--very interesting. So when is the 6" 10mm version coming out? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 27, 2018, 05:13 AM	#31
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,777	One of the videos seemed linked to the "strike one" pistol--sorry if I confused that with your product. : ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 27, 2018, 05:09 PM	#38
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	I had to pull my faithful Seecamp out of my pocket to check. It does have an extractor for manual extraction of a round in the chamber. With American ammo it function flawlessly, but right, with European ammo it is finicky. Thanks Jim for explaining why. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

May 27, 2018, 04:00 AM	#28
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Dear HisSoldier Thank you very much...

May 27, 2018, 04:39 AM	#30
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Tangfolio/Arsenal--very interesting. So when is the 6" 10mm version coming out? what do you mean?

May 27, 2018, 11:30 AM	#32
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	You may want to research the blueprints for the AMT Backup in 9mm, .40S&W, & .45ACP. It uses the mass of the hammer to regulate slide velocity and lockup. Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

May 27, 2018, 12:43 PM	#33
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Dear seeker two yes,i check the mechanic now...The Hammer is in the frame in that gun..My Hammer is integrated in the slide...But using the mass of the Hammer is correct...The most blowbacks works with Hammer and,of course they use the Mass of it..İn this or other way..

May 27, 2018, 02:38 PM	#34
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	I appreciate you exploring various possibilities of gun design and sharing them. I like the incorporation of the hammer and pivot into the slide assembly. A challenge of that approach might be keeping the hammer from dropping as the slide stops suddenly against the barrel breech. Can you elaborate a little on the details of the groove in the chamber? Does the brass expand slightly into the groove and slightly delay the slide opening by locking the case in the chamber until the pressure drops upon the bullet exiting the barrel? Or is their another explanation?

May 27, 2018, 03:11 PM	#35
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Dear BBarn No,your explanation is right....The case expand in this groove and seal the chamber.So all the pressure expands to the front.When the pressure is down,the oversized case loose a little more energy to get out of the chamber as a normal case....İf the grooves are to deep,the case stuck in the chamber...Thats why,i use two extractors..Because of different case materials and thickness,this is the only way to guarantee a clean cycle...

May 27, 2018, 03:23 PM	#36
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,540	I know of several chamber groove retarded blowbacks, although they do not have your other design elements. They are ammunition sensitive. The Mann was surely calibrated for German ammunition. The Seecamp is calibrated for American ammunition. The Colt is made for .38 Special Midrange only. The High Standard T4 had difficulty with the variety of ammunition it might run into in NATO deployment. The Detonics' action was so hard as to break parts, even with a chamber groove. I don't know what dual extractors will do for it. Many blowback actions will shoot well with no extractor at all.

May 27, 2018, 03:32 PM	#37
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Dear Jim Watson Normally you need the extractor only,if you want to empty the loaded chamber manually..But due this grooves,we need to pull the case out..One extractor loose sometimes the grip and failed.But two extractors dont leave the case in the chamber... İts necessary,and sometimes,even in guns without grooves,the case can stuck in the chamber,due dirt or other problems..So,its also a good solution to prevent such misfunctions...

May 27, 2018, 07:08 PM	#39
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,540	Good point, Erhan. I know of people who will not carry a tip- up barrel Beretta because they could not quickly remove a misfired round or split case. We will be watching for your reports when you start bending metal.

June 4, 2018, 02:08 AM	#42
makarov Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Location: Washington State Posts: 709	The groove in the chamber probably does a fair bit. The last generation of Makarovs had a fluted chamber that worked the same way. I've only seen pictures of course. The used brass had noticeable rippled grooves going the lengthwise on the cases. Picture the wrapper on a cupcake and you've got a good visual. This guy's pistol is basically, a delayed blowback design. What is interesting is having the recoil spring and guide rod mounted above the barrel rather than simply coiled around the barrel itself. This shows the heavy guide rod being pulled back along with the "half slide" so the guide rod's mass has to be added to the slide for felt recoil. - he has a couple videos posted of him shooting it too. Give the guy credit for making this thing from scratch for sure. __________________ "Where Zen ends, asskicking begins" - Hyde - That 70's Show

June 8, 2018, 04:46 AM	#43
Erhan Member Join Date: May 24, 2018 Posts: 20	Dear Makarov Thank you...You are right..All the moving mass produce the felt recoil..For the locked breech design we have to count Slider,barrel,rod....this is normally about 350 gram..My rod weigth is 50 gram and the slider 150 gram..total 200 gram...This makes a difference.