engaging the active shooter - Page 5

Rainbow Demon · January 4, 2013, 05:12 PM

Being on the outside of a building and hearing gunfire inside might be a call to arms for some, but being on the outside means you are ignorant of exactly what is going on in there.
Running back to your vehicle and retreiving an AR then rushing in cold might put you in the middle of a shoot out between a Narc stake out squad and a Zeta hit team or something equally unexpected, robbery in progress, etc. At the very least you'd impede the exit of victims trying to escape.
Should you make it inside you'll be sillhouetted in the doorway rifle in hand and obviously an immediate threat to the shooter. If he spots you first, and if shooting at people running for the exit he almost certainly would, theres no element of suprise on your side. He wouldn't even have to shift his aim by much.

Then theres the CCW who figures disgression is the better part of valour, perhaps trying to get his family out of the way. He and his are fleeing a man who's shooting everyone with a Bushmaster and here comes another man with a AR blocking the exit. Possible bad news there.

If already on the scene theres no excuse for not doing something. Going in blind and ignorant seldom works out well for anyone.

markj · January 4, 2013, 05:26 PM

I must ask, do these thoughts clutter up your minds? or do you all wish to really be involved in this type of confrontation?

Scares the crap out of me to think folks would be trying to get to the shooter in order to stop him.

Hearing about some real fire fights from my Uncle and cousins all LEO make me think it would be best to get the heck away from there.

Hearing about the fire fights my nephew whent thru in afganistan really scares the crap out of me, have yer best friends blown up body parts raining down on ya.....

It isnt a game, you could be killed or hurt to the point your family will suffer.

Now before you all climb up into my rear end, remember my cousins sis in law was killed at Von Maur, hiding behind the counter. The family is still hurting from that, divorce in one instance. It isnt a game.

PH/CIB · January 4, 2013, 07:18 PM

I suppose since I have posted I would probably take action and try to engage an active shooter on this thread and one other, a lot of you consider me to be a Rambo wantabe.

To clarify hopefully somewhat, I was talking about engaging an active shooter where there was no doubt in your mind who the active shooter is and what he is doing, for instance in a school classroom or movie theater or restaurant or shopping mall where you see the active shooter start or engaging in the shooting of innocents.

Moving towards gunfire that you hear but cannot see presents a multitude of problems. One is when you get to where the shooting is taking place, then you have to identify the shooter(s) as the shooter(s) and as the bad guy(s).

If I decided to move towards gunfire, I would do it in stages trying to not be in the open or caught in the open and identifying cover or concealment in front of me and moving towards it so if caught in the open I have already identified cover or concealment and am already moving towards it. And then on to the next cover or concealment I have identified in front of me. I would also be trying to identify avenues of escape so if I had to, I could escape. When I got to the shooting I would have the knowledge of these avenues of escape and the cover and concealment behind me and how to get to it if I had to retreat.

Anaconda1492 · January 4, 2013, 10:35 PM

Best thing for you to do is runaway and runaway fast as some numbnuts strolling around a shooting area with a weapon is liable to get himself shot by the professionals responding to the situation or by another numbnuts trying to be a hero.

The last thing I'd do is try to take on an active-shooter (especially one armed with a rifle) with a handgun and only engage in gunplay as a last resort."

Depends on the situation bro. Running away would get you killed in the theater massacre, and the one in the school there was really no where to run. That is not always an option . If you do run away you have to be conscious enough to run away in zig zags or you could easily be shoot. Engaging an active shooter is not what happens usually the active shooter engages you or people nearby. If you can take the shoot safely you should. For example, say you could flank the shooter or at least keep his head down, and cause him to panic you could save lives.

Anaconda1492 · January 4, 2013, 10:48 PM

Then theres the CCW who figures disgression is the better part of valour, perhaps trying to get his family out of the way. He and his are fleeing a man who's shooting everyone with a Bushmaster and here comes another man with a AR blocking the exit. Possible bad news there."

Good point this is a very complex subject. The only thing i can think of is training to help minimize this. I think for these kind of things you need to have gun on hand to really help out much. By the time you go to your car and retrieve your rifle your about as good as the police that are on the way.

Nanuk · January 4, 2013, 11:17 PM

It is not to difficult to ID the bad guy, he is the one shooting at everything moving. Front sight - P-R-E-S-S.

It is all very simple, too many times people suffer from paralysis of analysis, happens to young officers in combat all the time.

raimius · January 4, 2013, 11:23 PM

The "no surrender" ideology is VERY bad for civilian defense cases, IMO. Shooting someone after they surrender is considered murder in most places!

Now, if you mean, you will not be engaging in negotiations while an active shooter is murdering innocent people, that is legal.

Anaconda1492 · January 4, 2013, 11:29 PM

Your adrenaline may be shooting through the roof. Your not going to be as good as you are at the range shooting at paper targets. If you shoot at him you will likely cause him great fear as well though. Perhaps the only thing behind your gun will be your hand and air. I have seen war footage were combatants would hold their ak's with one hand out shooting and keeping their body behind a wall.

Tactical Jackalope · January 5, 2013, 08:13 AM

The last dozen responses to this thread have immaculate knowledge to incorporate into your own ways of thinking. A bit of all of those responses, is creating a better outlook for most people who wouldn't know what to do.

Good job guys. Keep it going.

Rainbow Demon · January 5, 2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Your adrenaline may be shooting through the roof. Your not going to be as good as you are at the range shooting at paper targets. If you shoot at him you will likely cause him great fear as well though. Perhaps the only thing behind your gun will be your hand and air. I have seen war footage were combatants would hold their ak's with one hand out shooting and keeping their body behind a wall.

Seen the same sort of shooting from behind a wall done by U S troops during the Tet Offensive. This being to draw fire away from troops try to flank the enemy and hopefully keep their heads down.
Not a very useful tactic in a one on one fight with limited ammunition, but as you say it might break his self image of invincibility and send him scurrying for cover, and might distract him long enough for others to escape.

Alabama Shooter · January 5, 2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

I have seen war footage were combatants would hold their ak's with one hand out shooting and keeping their body behind a wall.

Quote:

Not a very useful tactic in a one on one fight with limited ammunition, but as you say it might break his self image of invincibility and send him scurrying for cover, and might distract him long enough for others to escape.

I would think that following this type of strategy with an active shooter would be a bad idea. Aside from violating the four rules of gun safety you are liable to do more harm than good especially in a crowded area. I would not suggest that anyone do things that soldiers do in combat when engaging an active shooter or self defense.

The legal and ethical considerations of combat are very different than that of self defense type situation. Combat is geared towards selective use of force to achieve certain objectives while Self Defense is geared towards protecting your self (and possibly others). Things that are considered acceptable in combat such as shooting a fleeing unarmed enemy soldier in the back or inflicting casualties on non combatants do not apply in the civilian world.

**Frank Ettin** · January 5, 2013, 12:21 PM

Starting to get repetitive and circular.

Enough chest thumping, and let's not forget the the Rules of Engagement are different in war. This is a matter of satisfying the rules for the justified use of force in a peacetime, civilian context.

Closed

January 4, 2013, 07:18 PM	#103
PH/CIB Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 281	I suppose since I have posted I would probably take action and try to engage an active shooter on this thread and one other, a lot of you consider me to be a Rambo wantabe. To clarify hopefully somewhat, I was talking about engaging an active shooter where there was no doubt in your mind who the active shooter is and what he is doing, for instance in a school classroom or movie theater or restaurant or shopping mall where you see the active shooter start or engaging in the shooting of innocents. Moving towards gunfire that you hear but cannot see presents a multitude of problems. One is when you get to where the shooting is taking place, then you have to identify the shooter(s) as the shooter(s) and as the bad guy(s). If I decided to move towards gunfire, I would do it in stages trying to not be in the open or caught in the open and identifying cover or concealment in front of me and moving towards it so if caught in the open I have already identified cover or concealment and am already moving towards it. And then on to the next cover or concealment I have identified in front of me. I would also be trying to identify avenues of escape so if I had to, I could escape. When I got to the shooting I would have the knowledge of these avenues of escape and the cover and concealment behind me and how to get to it if I had to retreat. __________________ Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net

January 4, 2013, 11:17 PM	#106
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	It is not to difficult to ID the bad guy, he is the one shooting at everything moving. Front sight - P-R-E-S-S. It is all very simple, too many times people suffer from paralysis of analysis, happens to young officers in combat all the time. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

January 4, 2013, 11:29 PM	#108
Anaconda1492 Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Posts: 46	Your adrenaline may be shooting through the roof. Your not going to be as good as you are at the range shooting at paper targets. If you shoot at him you will likely cause him great fear as well though. Perhaps the only thing behind your gun will be your hand and air. I have seen war footage were combatants would hold their ak's with one hand out shooting and keeping their body behind a wall. Last edited by Anaconda1492; January 4, 2013 at 11:36 PM.

January 5, 2013, 12:21 PM	#112
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Starting to get repetitive and circular. Enough chest thumping, and let's not forget the the Rules of Engagement are different in war. This is a matter of satisfying the rules for the justified use of force in a peacetime, civilian context. Closed __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

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January 4, 2013, 05:12 PM	#101
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	Being on the outside of a building and hearing gunfire inside might be a call to arms for some, but being on the outside means you are ignorant of exactly what is going on in there. Running back to your vehicle and retreiving an AR then rushing in cold might put you in the middle of a shoot out between a Narc stake out squad and a Zeta hit team or something equally unexpected, robbery in progress, etc. At the very least you'd impede the exit of victims trying to escape. Should you make it inside you'll be sillhouetted in the doorway rifle in hand and obviously an immediate threat to the shooter. If he spots you first, and if shooting at people running for the exit he almost certainly would, theres no element of suprise on your side. He wouldn't even have to shift his aim by much. Then theres the CCW who figures disgression is the better part of valour, perhaps trying to get his family out of the way. He and his are fleeing a man who's shooting everyone with a Bushmaster and here comes another man with a AR blocking the exit. Possible bad news there. If already on the scene theres no excuse for not doing something. Going in blind and ignorant seldom works out well for anyone.

January 4, 2013, 05:26 PM	#102
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	I must ask, do these thoughts clutter up your minds? or do you all wish to really be involved in this type of confrontation? Scares the crap out of me to think folks would be trying to get to the shooter in order to stop him. Hearing about some real fire fights from my Uncle and cousins all LEO make me think it would be best to get the heck away from there. Hearing about the fire fights my nephew whent thru in afganistan really scares the crap out of me, have yer best friends blown up body parts raining down on ya..... It isnt a game, you could be killed or hurt to the point your family will suffer. Now before you all climb up into my rear end, remember my cousins sis in law was killed at Von Maur, hiding behind the counter. The family is still hurting from that, divorce in one instance. It isnt a game.

January 4, 2013, 10:35 PM	#104
Anaconda1492 Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Posts: 46	Best thing for you to do is runaway and runaway fast as some numbnuts strolling around a shooting area with a weapon is liable to get himself shot by the professionals responding to the situation or by another numbnuts trying to be a hero. The last thing I'd do is try to take on an active-shooter (especially one armed with a rifle) with a handgun and only engage in gunplay as a last resort." Depends on the situation bro. Running away would get you killed in the theater massacre, and the one in the school there was really no where to run. That is not always an option . If you do run away you have to be conscious enough to run away in zig zags or you could easily be shoot. Engaging an active shooter is not what happens usually the active shooter engages you or people nearby. If you can take the shoot safely you should. For example, say you could flank the shooter or at least keep his head down, and cause him to panic you could save lives.

January 4, 2013, 10:48 PM	#105
Anaconda1492 Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Posts: 46	Then theres the CCW who figures disgression is the better part of valour, perhaps trying to get his family out of the way. He and his are fleeing a man who's shooting everyone with a Bushmaster and here comes another man with a AR blocking the exit. Possible bad news there." Good point this is a very complex subject. The only thing i can think of is training to help minimize this. I think for these kind of things you need to have gun on hand to really help out much. By the time you go to your car and retrieve your rifle your about as good as the police that are on the way.

January 4, 2013, 11:23 PM	#107
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	The "no surrender" ideology is VERY bad for civilian defense cases, IMO. Shooting someone after they surrender is considered murder in most places! Now, if you mean, you will not be engaging in negotiations while an active shooter is murdering innocent people, that is legal.

January 5, 2013, 08:13 AM	#109
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	The last dozen responses to this thread have immaculate knowledge to incorporate into your own ways of thinking. A bit of all of those responses, is creating a better outlook for most people who wouldn't know what to do. Good job guys. Keep it going.