1851 navy cartridge conversion???

wolfe 21 · June 16, 2011, 10:24 PM

OK, I've gotten the idea that I need a '51 navy to play with as everyone says they just melt into your hand. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in Black Powder as I quite frankly hate to spend time cleaning guns and it sounds like that is commandment 1 with BP. SO....,

My question is simply, this. Who makes a Metallic Cartridge conversion of an 1851 Navy pistol that shoots some type of readily available ammunition (.38 spl, 44 spl, 45 colt, etc) that is safe to use with modern smokeless powder factory and cowboy loads. Also, does anyone make what I've seen refered to as a "blacksmith's conversion." Basically a standard BP navy, with the loading rod instead of an ejector and a gated conversion cylinder. Steel frame, cased or blued, 5.5 or longer barrel. If not, what is a good source for a Richards-mason with the navy grip or similar conversion. I want something like the first gun in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agpo3HLSAdo.

I am familiar with Cimarron's Man with No Name, just looking for other options and price points.
James.

Fingers McGee · June 16, 2011, 11:05 PM

There are a viariety of Mason, Richards Mason and Open tops available from Buffalo Arms, Cimarron, and Taylors as well as GunBroker and Guns America that are chambered for .38, .44, and .45 calibers are are safe to use with standard smokeless loads.

Ideal Tool · June 16, 2011, 11:17 PM

Hello, Wolfe 21. You asked about a "blacksmith conversion" I have a Kirst cartridge conversion cylinder for my 1971 Colt re-make 51' navy. It drops right in place of percussion cyl. I haven't the heart to start cutting on that beautiful case-colored frame, so barrel has to come off to load..No real problem though..still faster than percussion loading. One thing with this type though..the barrels are bored for the .375 ball..so you must use .38 Long Colt, either hollow base or "heel" type bullets for proper fit...regular .38 special bullets will fall right through! Kirst alos makes conversion cyl. for the
.44 percussion..these are 5 shot cyl. chambered for .45 Long Colt or Schofield. Best of luck!

Tanker6 · June 17, 2011, 06:31 PM

I think I may have posted this directly to you in another thread Wolfe, but I shoot '71/'72 Open Tops in .38 special from Taylors. I've been extremely pleased with how accurate they are.

Good Hunting!

wolfe 21 · June 17, 2011, 08:21 PM

yes we had a discussion of your open tops in another thread, and that is part of the reason I am trying to find something similar that still appeals to my eye. I just can't seem to get past the ejector rod on most of the conversions. It looks like an afterthought, because it quite frankly was one.
I've bought more than a few guns because they looked purtty and for no other reason (case colored ruger with pearl grips and a duotone 1911 with cocobollo wood spring to mind, as well as a Canadian Centennial '94 Winchester).

MJN77 · June 17, 2011, 08:48 PM

Unless you find a custom gun maker.......
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3920
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3930
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3787
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3782
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3928
....these are pretty much your only options.

wolfe 21 · June 17, 2011, 09:13 PM

kind of like the Richards mason conversions as they retain the square barrel lug of the 51, but the 72 open tops aren't bad either. I'm just not certain about the look. It looks like the '60 army style barrel on the '51 navy frame. Not sure how I feel about that, though the price is definitely closer to where I want to be. The man with no name is exactly what I want, but I can get a new blackhawk and a box of ammo for what my LGS is asking for it.

Guess I'll have to shop around a little.

James.

Ideal Tool · June 17, 2011, 10:16 PM

Hello, Wolfe 21. Since that "after thought" ejector bothers you...just be patient for awhile..there is a Colt Thuer conversion unit being developed.

Fingers McGee · June 17, 2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfe 21

I just can't seem to get past the ejector rod on most of the conversions.

That's one of the reasons I bought a pair of the Man With No Name conversions. Retains the sleek looks of the Navy and chambers 38 specials. With BP loads, the spent cases fall out on their own so the ejector rod isn't needed.

wolfe 21 · June 18, 2011, 01:22 AM

Yeah, that seems to be the option I'll be going too. The man with no name is pretty much everything I want, but now I have a question. Is it safe to run modern .38 spl loads thru. I've been using Remington green box LRN .38's in my .357 Rugers and had planned to use the same ammo in whatever conversion I buy.

Also, anybody with high round counts experience any issues or parts failures. I tend to shoot a box of shells a trip, 2 trips a month to the range. If I start reloading or decide to try the cowboy shoots at my local shooting range that could easily become 2-4 boxes per trip plus competitions, putting me into the 600 rounds a month territory.

James

Hawg · June 18, 2011, 05:32 AM

You'll need two for CAS plus a lever action rifle and a shotgun.

MJN77 · June 18, 2011, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Is it safe to run modern .38 spl loads thru. I've been using Remington green box LRN .38's in my .357 Rugers and had planned to use the same ammo in whatever conversion I buy.

In short...I wouldn't. These guns are meant to be fired with black powder, or "cowboy" loads. While you could shoot standard factory smokeless loads through it (for a while at least) the open top design isn't the strongest revolver out there. If you shoot BP or equivalent smokeless loads it'll last forever. I have put about 600 rounds through mine, and have not had so much as a hiccup. It loves BP.

Fingers McGee · June 18, 2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfe 21

Is it safe to run modern .38 spl loads thru. I've been using Remington green box LRN .38's in my .357 Rugers and had planned to use the same ammo in whatever conversion I buy.

These guns are made to chamber and fire standard velocity .38 special loads. The only restriction in the Uberti instruction manual is against using 'High Speed or High Velocity" (+P) cartridges. While I don't shoot more than 50 - 100 rounds a month thru mine; nor have I used any jacketed ammunition, I've had no trouble with factory loads or reloads in the 750 fps range. The LRN .38s you are using are perfectly fine.

BTW, contrary to popular belief, a 'Cowboy load' is one that has a lead bullet and does not exceed 1000 fps out of a single action revolver. It is not a mouse phart or pfffttt load.

Hawg · June 18, 2011, 10:27 AM

I'm thinking I read somewhere the factory conversions are a little beefier than the standard bp open top.

wolfe 21 · June 18, 2011, 01:23 PM

good to know. I was aware that hotter loads were not recommended, but just wasn't sure about factory loads. Seems cowboy loads (the ones in the colorful boxes that are supposed to be less powerful) are about the same price as normal ammo around here, so I just buy the normal stuff. Only thing I can't find in a plain loading is .45 Colt. Black Hills, MagTech and Winchester are my choices locally and all are LRN "Cowboy" loads. I've seen Hornady and Winchester JHP rounds, but they're $25 for 20 rounds. I've got a blackhawk and an old model vaquero for times when I want to make a lot of noise. Still never actually shot any full tilt .357 ammo through either one though. Too much $$$.

Anybody seen any of the Conversions in stock. Seems the "man with no Name" and the 72 open tops are out of stock at most of the internet dealers that carry them and even my LGS said he could get me one, but not until they were back in stock at his supplier.

Oh, also, does anyone know if the brass frames can be plated or if there are steel replacements easily available. I'd be tempted to have one of the '51's nickle or chrome plated if that's an option.
James.

arcticap · June 18, 2011, 01:46 PM

Most certainly brass can be plated.

Hawg · June 18, 2011, 01:57 PM

You're not going to find a conversion with a brass frame. They can't handle it.

Fingers McGee · June 18, 2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wplfe 21

Oh, also, does anyone know if the brass frames can be plated or if there are steel replacements easily available. I'd be tempted to have one of the '51's nickle or chrome plated if that's an option.

Are you speaking of the gun frame or the backstrap & triggerguard grip frames? Anything can be plated if you've a mind to. Steel replacement BS/TG grip frames are available from parts suppliers (VTI, Taylors). Replacement gun frames are not. I've heard of some folks having their brass BS/TG frames silver plated by their local jewelry store. I'm sure some automotive chrome shops could/would nickel or chrome plate them for you - at what price I have no idea.

wolfe 21 · June 18, 2011, 02:28 PM

my mistake, yes I was talking about the backstrap/trigger guard frames. I was unsure if the composition of the brass would allow it to be plated. If so, I may just have the BS/TG plated and engraved (ala the conversion in Last Stand at Sabre River). I have always been partial to the looks of what Cabellas calls their Civilian Model '51 navy
http://www.cabelas.com/browse.cmd?ca...3Bcat108592380
Having a cartridg conversion would be even better.
On that note, does anyone make a .45 Colt chamber '51 Navy. I like big slow bullets generally (1911 and .45 SAA)?

James

Hawg · June 18, 2011, 02:57 PM

The 51 never came in a 44 originally. Pietta is the only one that makes a 51 in .44 so you'd have to have to either just get the conversion cylinder or do a full conversion yourself. Kirst makes a conversion kit but due to the cylinder size you're limited to five shots if you go with the .45

salvadore · June 18, 2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

BTW, contrary to popular belief, a 'Cowboy load' is one that has a lead bullet and does not exceed 1000 fps out of a single action revolver. It is not a mouse phart or pfffttt load.

Just an observation, I have loaded .45 Colts with full load equivalant with pyrodex and shot them out of both revolver and '73 copy and have watched cowboy competitions on youtube. It appears the cowpokes need a decent power factor to meet rather than one not to exceed.

Hawg · June 18, 2011, 04:48 PM

They do have a power factor to meet, it's just not very good. Some shooters can fire five rounds before the first one hits the target. At least it seems that way.

wolfe 21 · June 18, 2011, 11:46 PM

yeah, I've also been looking for something a little more stout to work up some hot .45 Colt loads. I've heard they are supposed to be a real handful if you load them to max pressures (still less than a .44 mag, but will definitely let you know you've shot something). The cowboy loads I've experienced seem to not have much more pronounced recoil than a single six in .22 mag, just louder.

James.

Hawg · June 19, 2011, 04:39 AM

.45 Colt can be loaded beyond .44 mag pressures. 44-40 can be loaded to 44 mag pressures but the thin cases wont last long. A case full of bp will let you know fired something.

wolfe 21 · June 19, 2011, 04:06 PM

Does anyone make a cartridge conversion of the 58 Remington. I understand that's basically all the 75 new army is, but I've also never heard much good about the current production '75's so I wondered if a converted '58 might be better. Would this frame hold up to any hot ammo, or would this still be a cowboy only gun?

James.

June 16, 2011, 10:24 PM	#1
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	1851 navy cartridge conversion??? OK, I've gotten the idea that I need a '51 navy to play with as everyone says they just melt into your hand. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in Black Powder as I quite frankly hate to spend time cleaning guns and it sounds like that is commandment 1 with BP. SO...., My question is simply, this. Who makes a Metallic Cartridge conversion of an 1851 Navy pistol that shoots some type of readily available ammunition (.38 spl, 44 spl, 45 colt, etc) that is safe to use with modern smokeless powder factory and cowboy loads. Also, does anyone make what I've seen refered to as a "blacksmith's conversion." Basically a standard BP navy, with the loading rod instead of an ejector and a gated conversion cylinder. Steel frame, cased or blued, 5.5 or longer barrel. If not, what is a good source for a Richards-mason with the navy grip or similar conversion. I want something like the first gun in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agpo3HLSAdo. I am familiar with Cimarron's Man with No Name, just looking for other options and price points. James.

June 16, 2011, 11:05 PM	#2
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	There are a viariety of Mason, Richards Mason and Open tops available from Buffalo Arms, Cimarron, and Taylors as well as GunBroker and Guns America that are chambered for .38, .44, and .45 calibers are are safe to use with standard smokeless loads. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

June 18, 2011, 01:22 AM	#10
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	Yeah, that seems to be the option I'll be going too. The man with no name is pretty much everything I want, but now I have a question. Is it safe to run modern .38 spl loads thru. I've been using Remington green box LRN .38's in my .357 Rugers and had planned to use the same ammo in whatever conversion I buy. Also, anybody with high round counts experience any issues or parts failures. I tend to shoot a box of shells a trip, 2 trips a month to the range. If I start reloading or decide to try the cowboy shoots at my local shooting range that could easily become 2-4 boxes per trip plus competitions, putting me into the 600 rounds a month territory. James Last edited by wolfe 21; June 18, 2011 at 01:31 AM.

June 16, 2011, 11:17 PM	#3
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, Wolfe 21. You asked about a "blacksmith conversion" I have a Kirst cartridge conversion cylinder for my 1971 Colt re-make 51' navy. It drops right in place of percussion cyl. I haven't the heart to start cutting on that beautiful case-colored frame, so barrel has to come off to load..No real problem though..still faster than percussion loading. One thing with this type though..the barrels are bored for the .375 ball..so you must use .38 Long Colt, either hollow base or "heel" type bullets for proper fit...regular .38 special bullets will fall right through! Kirst alos makes conversion cyl. for the .44 percussion..these are 5 shot cyl. chambered for .45 Long Colt or Schofield. Best of luck!

June 17, 2011, 06:31 PM	#4
Tanker6 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 193	I think I may have posted this directly to you in another thread Wolfe, but I shoot '71/'72 Open Tops in .38 special from Taylors. I've been extremely pleased with how accurate they are. Good Hunting!

June 17, 2011, 08:21 PM	#5
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	yes we had a discussion of your open tops in another thread, and that is part of the reason I am trying to find something similar that still appeals to my eye. I just can't seem to get past the ejector rod on most of the conversions. It looks like an afterthought, because it quite frankly was one. I've bought more than a few guns because they looked purtty and for no other reason (case colored ruger with pearl grips and a duotone 1911 with cocobollo wood spring to mind, as well as a Canadian Centennial '94 Winchester).

June 17, 2011, 08:48 PM	#6
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Unless you find a custom gun maker....... http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3920 http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3930 http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3787 http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3782 http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3928 ....these are pretty much your only options.

June 17, 2011, 09:13 PM	#7
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	kind of like the Richards mason conversions as they retain the square barrel lug of the 51, but the 72 open tops aren't bad either. I'm just not certain about the look. It looks like the '60 army style barrel on the '51 navy frame. Not sure how I feel about that, though the price is definitely closer to where I want to be. The man with no name is exactly what I want, but I can get a new blackhawk and a box of ammo for what my LGS is asking for it. Guess I'll have to shop around a little. James.

June 17, 2011, 10:16 PM	#8
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, Wolfe 21. Since that "after thought" ejector bothers you...just be patient for awhile..there is a Colt Thuer conversion unit being developed.

June 18, 2011, 05:32 AM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	You'll need two for CAS plus a lever action rifle and a shotgun.

June 18, 2011, 10:27 AM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I'm thinking I read somewhere the factory conversions are a little beefier than the standard bp open top.

June 18, 2011, 01:23 PM	#15
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	good to know. I was aware that hotter loads were not recommended, but just wasn't sure about factory loads. Seems cowboy loads (the ones in the colorful boxes that are supposed to be less powerful) are about the same price as normal ammo around here, so I just buy the normal stuff. Only thing I can't find in a plain loading is .45 Colt. Black Hills, MagTech and Winchester are my choices locally and all are LRN "Cowboy" loads. I've seen Hornady and Winchester JHP rounds, but they're $25 for 20 rounds. I've got a blackhawk and an old model vaquero for times when I want to make a lot of noise. Still never actually shot any full tilt .357 ammo through either one though. Too much $$$. Anybody seen any of the Conversions in stock. Seems the "man with no Name" and the 72 open tops are out of stock at most of the internet dealers that carry them and even my LGS said he could get me one, but not until they were back in stock at his supplier. Oh, also, does anyone know if the brass frames can be plated or if there are steel replacements easily available. I'd be tempted to have one of the '51's nickle or chrome plated if that's an option. James.

June 18, 2011, 01:46 PM	#16
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Most certainly brass can be plated.

June 18, 2011, 01:57 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	You're not going to find a conversion with a brass frame. They can't handle it.

June 18, 2011, 02:28 PM	#19
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	my mistake, yes I was talking about the backstrap/trigger guard frames. I was unsure if the composition of the brass would allow it to be plated. If so, I may just have the BS/TG plated and engraved (ala the conversion in Last Stand at Sabre River). I have always been partial to the looks of what Cabellas calls their Civilian Model '51 navy http://www.cabelas.com/browse.cmd?ca...3Bcat108592380 Having a cartridg conversion would be even better. On that note, does anyone make a .45 Colt chamber '51 Navy. I like big slow bullets generally (1911 and .45 SAA)? James

June 18, 2011, 02:57 PM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	The 51 never came in a 44 originally. Pietta is the only one that makes a 51 in .44 so you'd have to have to either just get the conversion cylinder or do a full conversion yourself. Kirst makes a conversion kit but due to the cylinder size you're limited to five shots if you go with the .45

June 18, 2011, 04:48 PM	#22
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	They do have a power factor to meet, it's just not very good. Some shooters can fire five rounds before the first one hits the target. At least it seems that way.

June 18, 2011, 11:46 PM	#23
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	yeah, I've also been looking for something a little more stout to work up some hot .45 Colt loads. I've heard they are supposed to be a real handful if you load them to max pressures (still less than a .44 mag, but will definitely let you know you've shot something). The cowboy loads I've experienced seem to not have much more pronounced recoil than a single six in .22 mag, just louder. James.

June 19, 2011, 04:39 AM	#24
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	.45 Colt can be loaded beyond .44 mag pressures. 44-40 can be loaded to 44 mag pressures but the thin cases wont last long. A case full of bp will let you know fired something.

June 19, 2011, 04:06 PM	#25
wolfe 21 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2006 Posts: 205	Does anyone make a cartridge conversion of the 58 Remington. I understand that's basically all the 75 new army is, but I've also never heard much good about the current production '75's so I wondered if a converted '58 might be better. Would this frame hold up to any hot ammo, or would this still be a cowboy only gun? James.