Lee vs. Other molds comparison

BJung · January 4, 2021, 11:13 PM

I started casting in March and am pretty well invested in them. The molds cast decent looking bullets from range lead but my groups haven't looked as good as lead bullets purchased from Oregon Trails..so far.

I will guess that one problem I face is the lead I'm using.

The question I have is if the other "non-Lee" molds cast superior, more accurate bullets (RCBS, NOE..)? Maybe it's like comparing Lee reloading tools to RCBS, Hornady, Dillon, and Redding.. You can make something that shoots decent but not the best.

Any comments from experience?

USSR · January 5, 2021, 07:28 AM

At one time or another, I've had about every make of mold known to man. The absolute best IMHO are molds made by Accurate Molds in Utah. Tom has an extensive catalog of molds he has made, and if you don't see something you like, he will make one to your specs. Can't ask for more than that. Successfully living a Lee-free existence.

Don

dahermit · January 5, 2021, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJung

I started casting in March and am pretty well invested in them. The molds cast decent looking bullets from range lead but my groups haven't looked as good as lead bullets purchased from Oregon Trails..so far.

I will guess that one problem I face is the lead I'm using.

The question I have is if the other "non-Lee" molds cast superior, more accurate bullets (RCBS, NOE..)? Maybe it's like comparing Lee reloading tools to RCBS, Hornady, Dillon, and Redding.. You can make something that shoots decent but not the best.

Any comments from experience?

It depends upon your objective. If one's purpose for casting is to feed a handgun in rapid fire event(s), then it makes sense to go with Lee gang molds. That is my current interest but I consider Lee molds (even the six cavity molds) as disposable...after thousands of casts, they seem to always eventually warp...and I just replace them.

If your purpose is accuracy using cast lead bullets in rifles, I would suggest molds from RCBS, Lyman, Saeco, etc. Join the Cast Lead Bullet Association, peruse their site for recommendations and guidance relative to accurate cast lead bullet rifle shooting.

gwpercle · January 5, 2021, 02:27 PM

The difference in a Lee mould and an NOE mould is like ...cars .
The Lee is a Ford Fairmont ... the NOE is a Lexus
I've owned both and I own a lot of Lee moulds because over my working years I could afford them and the Ford Fairmont .
I owned a lot of used Lyman moulds also (from E-bay)
But... just to see what all the hoopla was about I ordered a custom NOE 4 cavity mould made to my spec's that I couldn't buy anywhere else.
Geeze Loueeze... I had no Idea what I had been missing ... think Lexus .
Finely crafted , finely fitted , well finished ... a work of art .
After breaking it in casting with it is like kissing a pretty girl who likes you ... a lot !

Do yourself a favor ... buy one NOE mould and try it !
I would bet money you find yourself buying more ... they are that sweet to cast with ... just makes casting enjoyable .

I have 30-35 moulds already and didn't really need any more and I don't spend money willy-nilly but I have purchased 4 more NOE moulds just because they are that nice and NOE has some long discontinued models tha Lyman no longer makes .
Gary

BJung · January 5, 2021, 06:26 PM

All I can afford now is the Ford Fairmont, given the many calibers I want to load for. But let's say I compare NOE cast bullets to Lee cast bullets for accuracy; whether pistol or rifle. Would it be a fair comparison of groups, on group of loads using Sierra SMK or Berger bullets to loads using Winchester or Speer randomly picked?

Mike / Tx · January 7, 2021, 06:14 AM

I started out casting with a 6C Lee mold for my 454. Sorta jumped outta tha skillet and into tha fire.

That was close to a decade ago and I've added a significant number of molds to my shelf. I can say you get what you pay for with the custom makers. As mentioned think top quality.

As to accuracy, over 45+ years if stuffing my own rounds I've had plenty of smiles from picking a powder charge and seating a jacketed bullet and getting a nice group with minimal fuss. Cast on the other hand is a critter of a different color.

With cast your inducing multiple variables that any one of can effect the end result. The general rule of thumb is fit is king and lube is queen. There is now powder coating which adds another addition to the mix. Using traditional lubes works but not all are are the same nor do they hold up to loads equally. As funny as it sounds the old Alox works as good now as it did 50yrs ago, but there are other lubes that cover a range of loads as well. White Label makes great stick lubes which and be used in lubsizers or pan lubing, or you can donthe powder coat.

Lead..yeah another item which throws in variables. A generally preferred alloy is something in the ballpark of a 2 / 4 / 94 alloy would probably cover around 90% of needs, but, and thats the fun part. Adjusting the tin or pure lead percentage can make or break the fill out in a mold as well as on target performance.

Usually final sizing that is around .001" - .002" over bore diameter in autos and about the same for revolver cylinders works out great. That said slugging a bore and making sure that all cylinders of a revolver are equally deminsioned usually results in time well spent. One other issue with some revolvers is the area where the barrel screws into the frame being swaged down. This results in the bullet being squeezed down as it transverse the cylinder, thru the forcing cone and into the barrel which usually results in leading and/or poor accuracy.

As to high dollar mold accuracy verses budget molds, personally I have had awesome groups from both. My general alloy is around a 2/2/96 and can be run from 650 up to around 1600fps on the top end and provides excellent accuracy from a number of firearms. Some of the budget molds are used just for casting bulk round nose or wadcutter types for blasting. Most of my higher end molds are used to pour HP or WFN types for hunting in large caliber or magnum revolvers. From a rest most of the loads developed result in groups of around 2" at 50yds or more. I do however have at least one or more Lee mold in a WFN profile that i use for hunting loads. They are simply wonderful for bulk pours and 20# of alloy makes for plenty of practice.

Go to LASC and look up the PDF by Glen Frexell. It will help answer a ton of questions.

BJung · January 7, 2021, 11:07 AM

Mike. Are you purchasing your lead and mixing in the tin or are you starting with wheel weights and range lead with these molds? Thanks for your opinion. I'm trying to keep the thread interesting. Do you have any photos of good groups with cast bullets you can share?

gwpercle · January 7, 2021, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJung

All I can afford now is the Ford Fairmont, given the many calibers I want to load for. But let's say I compare NOE cast bullets to Lee cast bullets for accuracy; whether pistol or rifle. Would it be a fair comparison of groups, on group of loads using Sierra SMK or Berger bullets to loads using Winchester or Speer randomly picked?

The Ford Fairmont got us from point A to Point B and if that's all you can afford then it sure beats walking... Lee moulds are built to be economical but with a little hand finishing by you , smoothing off a rough edge for the price they can cast great bullets .
So much of the quality of a bullet is based on the talent , knowledge and skill of the man pouring the lead , I've been casting for 54+ years and I strive to cast PERFECT bullets and I can do so with a Lee mould but it takes some knowlege of alloy , what to add , how and when to flux and how fast to open the mould ... I can cast perfect bullets in spite of using a Lee mould not because I'm using a Lee mould .
The Lee moulds are trickier to get perfect bullets out of ... I don't know how to explain it but getting perfect bullets with a NOE mould just seems to come easier .
Lee , Lyman and NOE are the only moulds I have cast with so I can't say anything about the other makes ... casting with a Lee makes you work a little harder ...casting with a NOE makes you smile !
And I pressure cast with an open top pot and Lyman casting ladle and mostly 2-4 cavity moulds . I tried bottom pour pots untill I was blue in the face ... could make lots of almost perfect bullets ...But I want perfectly cast bullets and the ladle gives them to me.
Gary

Mike / Tx · January 9, 2021, 04:16 AM

Here are a couple of 10 shot groups from my 45acp using the HG 68 SWC over 4.2gr of Bullseye..

Probably can't do that right now, maybe close.

I haven't been seriously shooting in...well far too long. Then I was hitting the range about weekly.

That mold is an original Hensley Gibbs 4 cavity iron. After about halfway thru the second 20# pot it starts to get heavy. But it shoots so good.

Here's a link to a couple 454 targets .....
454 post

Another link, long read but maybe useful...
41 loads

Hope those help. Ill get back with you on the alloy.

BJung · January 9, 2021, 11:24 AM

Those are the type of groups I seek to find for my ideal loads Mike. As far as the cast bullet is concerned, do you consider finding the right bullet size (.001" vs .002"..), the alloy, or something special about the mold as important? Then, is there something special you do while cooling or tempering (water drop) your bullets? I've discovered that after I melt and mix my lead in my pot and cast, the bullets still come out in varied weights? Do you separate your bullets by weigh? What's the explanation of the variance in weight? I fill my molds from the bottom. I'm thinking it might be the pressure from the lead weight in the pot.

Mike / Tx · January 10, 2021, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Those are the type of groups I seek to find for my ideal loads Mike. As far as the cast bullet is concerned, do you consider finding the right bullet size (.001" vs .002"..), the alloy, or something special about the mold as important? Then, is there something special you do while cooling or tempering (water drop) your bullets? I've discovered that after I melt and mix my lead in my pot and cast, the bullets still come out in varied weights? Do you separate your bullets by weigh? What's the explanation of the variance in weight? I fill my molds from the bottom. I'm thinking it might be the pressure from the lead weight in the pot.

I usually try to size as close to bore diameter as I can. For the 45s I use a .452, and it seems to work out great for all of them. For 9mm .356 has done fine, for 38/357 .358 seems to do nicely.

My base alloy is a 1/3/96 and I adjust from there. I add pure and tin to get it to a 1.5/1.5/97 or similar. I use a Lee bottom pour with a PID control for the temp. It will keep it within about 5-10 degrees. I pre warm my molds to about 325 before I start pouring and usually dump the first several pours back in the pot to get the molds up to casting temp. Then its just pour and dump.

Several factors can contribute to the difference in weights. Usually its the mold temp. Hotter molds will cast lighter bullets. Here's a good read...
Impact of alloy temperature and mould temperature on bullet diameter

I tried several test comparing air cooled vs water dropped on each caliber and the most used bullets for each. I personally did not see any advantage in quenching them. Most every quenched round shot more erratic groups than did the air cooled from the same batch. When I tested i alternated one pour to each quench or on the dry towel. Once I had around 50-75 of each I sized, lubed, and loaded after one week or three to give adequate time for additional hardening.

When I pour i like to keep the pot at least half full. I keep ingots setting on a hot plate warming so it only takes a few minutes to come back to temp. Once it settles to within a 5 or so degree of my PID setting I go to pouring. Meanwhile I keep my mold warm by setting it back on the hotplate. And again I usually dump the first couple of pours back in the pot. As for sorting by weight, only for my 454. I pour the Lee 452-300 RF. I have found that at extended ranges having the sorted does help. If I am loading hunting loads I will also be a bit more picky. In general though unless I'm sitting at a solid bench using a rest, I really can't see much difference out to around 75-100yds.

January 4, 2021, 11:13 PM	#1
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	Lee vs. Other molds comparison I started casting in March and am pretty well invested in them. The molds cast decent looking bullets from range lead but my groups haven't looked as good as lead bullets purchased from Oregon Trails..so far. I will guess that one problem I face is the lead I'm using. The question I have is if the other "non-Lee" molds cast superior, more accurate bullets (RCBS, NOE..)? Maybe it's like comparing Lee reloading tools to RCBS, Hornady, Dillon, and Redding.. You can make something that shoots decent but not the best. Any comments from experience?

January 5, 2021, 07:28 AM	#2
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	At one time or another, I've had about every make of mold known to man. The absolute best IMHO are molds made by Accurate Molds in Utah. Tom has an extensive catalog of molds he has made, and if you don't see something you like, he will make one to your specs. Can't ask for more than that. Successfully living a Lee-free existence. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 7, 2021, 06:14 AM	#6
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	I started out casting with a 6C Lee mold for my 454. Sorta jumped outta tha skillet and into tha fire. That was close to a decade ago and I've added a significant number of molds to my shelf. I can say you get what you pay for with the custom makers. As mentioned think top quality. As to accuracy, over 45+ years if stuffing my own rounds I've had plenty of smiles from picking a powder charge and seating a jacketed bullet and getting a nice group with minimal fuss. Cast on the other hand is a critter of a different color. With cast your inducing multiple variables that any one of can effect the end result. The general rule of thumb is fit is king and lube is queen. There is now powder coating which adds another addition to the mix. Using traditional lubes works but not all are are the same nor do they hold up to loads equally. As funny as it sounds the old Alox works as good now as it did 50yrs ago, but there are other lubes that cover a range of loads as well. White Label makes great stick lubes which and be used in lubsizers or pan lubing, or you can donthe powder coat. Lead..yeah another item which throws in variables. A generally preferred alloy is something in the ballpark of a 2 / 4 / 94 alloy would probably cover around 90% of needs, but, and thats the fun part. Adjusting the tin or pure lead percentage can make or break the fill out in a mold as well as on target performance. Usually final sizing that is around .001" - .002" over bore diameter in autos and about the same for revolver cylinders works out great. That said slugging a bore and making sure that all cylinders of a revolver are equally deminsioned usually results in time well spent. One other issue with some revolvers is the area where the barrel screws into the frame being swaged down. This results in the bullet being squeezed down as it transverse the cylinder, thru the forcing cone and into the barrel which usually results in leading and/or poor accuracy. As to high dollar mold accuracy verses budget molds, personally I have had awesome groups from both. My general alloy is around a 2/2/96 and can be run from 650 up to around 1600fps on the top end and provides excellent accuracy from a number of firearms. Some of the budget molds are used just for casting bulk round nose or wadcutter types for blasting. Most of my higher end molds are used to pour HP or WFN types for hunting in large caliber or magnum revolvers. From a rest most of the loads developed result in groups of around 2" at 50yds or more. I do however have at least one or more Lee mold in a WFN profile that i use for hunting loads. They are simply wonderful for bulk pours and 20# of alloy makes for plenty of practice. Go to LASC and look up the PDF by Glen Frexell. It will help answer a ton of questions. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

January 9, 2021, 04:16 AM	#9
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Here are a couple of 10 shot groups from my 45acp using the HG 68 SWC over 4.2gr of Bullseye.. Probably can't do that right now, maybe close. I haven't been seriously shooting in...well far too long. Then I was hitting the range about weekly. That mold is an original Hensley Gibbs 4 cavity iron. After about halfway thru the second 20# pot it starts to get heavy. But it shoots so good. Here's a link to a couple 454 targets ..... 454 post Another link, long read but maybe useful... 41 loads Hope those help. Ill get back with you on the alloy. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

January 5, 2021, 02:27 PM	#4
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	The difference in a Lee mould and an NOE mould is like ...cars . The Lee is a Ford Fairmont ... the NOE is a Lexus I've owned both and I own a lot of Lee moulds because over my working years I could afford them and the Ford Fairmont . I owned a lot of used Lyman moulds also (from E-bay) But... just to see what all the hoopla was about I ordered a custom NOE 4 cavity mould made to my spec's that I couldn't buy anywhere else. Geeze Loueeze... I had no Idea what I had been missing ... think Lexus . Finely crafted , finely fitted , well finished ... a work of art . After breaking it in casting with it is like kissing a pretty girl who likes you ... a lot ! Do yourself a favor ... buy one NOE mould and try it ! I would bet money you find yourself buying more ... they are that sweet to cast with ... just makes casting enjoyable . I have 30-35 moulds already and didn't really need any more and I don't spend money willy-nilly but I have purchased 4 more NOE moulds just because they are that nice and NOE has some long discontinued models tha Lyman no longer makes . Gary

January 5, 2021, 06:26 PM	#5
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	All I can afford now is the Ford Fairmont, given the many calibers I want to load for. But let's say I compare NOE cast bullets to Lee cast bullets for accuracy; whether pistol or rifle. Would it be a fair comparison of groups, on group of loads using Sierra SMK or Berger bullets to loads using Winchester or Speer randomly picked?

January 7, 2021, 11:07 AM	#7
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	Mike. Are you purchasing your lead and mixing in the tin or are you starting with wheel weights and range lead with these molds? Thanks for your opinion. I'm trying to keep the thread interesting. Do you have any photos of good groups with cast bullets you can share?

January 9, 2021, 11:24 AM	#10
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	Those are the type of groups I seek to find for my ideal loads Mike. As far as the cast bullet is concerned, do you consider finding the right bullet size (.001" vs .002"..), the alloy, or something special about the mold as important? Then, is there something special you do while cooling or tempering (water drop) your bullets? I've discovered that after I melt and mix my lead in my pot and cast, the bullets still come out in varied weights? Do you separate your bullets by weigh? What's the explanation of the variance in weight? I fill my molds from the bottom. I'm thinking it might be the pressure from the lead weight in the pot.