FFG or FFFG ?

[rebs]

I have both a 58 cal made in Italy for Cabelas with 20 " barrel and a 50 cal T/C new englander with 27" barrel. These are both older guns. Can I use FFFg in both of them or do I need some FFG ?
What is the differences between FFG and FFFG ?

[4V50 Gary]

General rule of thumb is the more the "F's" in a grain, the coarser it is.

F is a coarse grain. This and larger ones are used for very big bores (think small cannons - note there are larger grains too).
FF is a coaser grain used in muskets or 50 cal and larger (think .72 cal like the Brown Bess or 10 GA smoothbores).
FFF is finer, used in .45 cal or smaller. Good for revolvers and smaller caliber rifles.
FFFF is superfine and used for priming pans.

The finer the power the greater the pressure created. You can use FF for priming pan and up until the late 1700s or around 1790s, a soldier's musket was primed from his paper cartridge.

Now, for 50 cal, I would use FF and stick with it.

[rodwhaincamo]

.50 cal has been generally considered the mid cal for 2/3F use. Many use 3F in calibers of .58 and above as it needs a little less and leaves a little less fouling.

Lyman shows their .50 and .54 cal firearms with both 2 and 3F max loadings.

4F is widely used in small calibers where the powder charges are also smaller. Hazard's Pistol Powder paper cartridges during the Civil War were shown to contain 4F that was as powerful as Swiss despite being .44 cal. And metallic cartridges from the late 1800's were taken apart by the curator for display and he found plenty of 4F and finer in them despite some being large caliber.

The 1st edition of the Lyman's Black Powder Handbook contained loading data for 4F Goex (max of 37 grns) in an 1860 with a ball.

4F burns and creates pressure quicker, which makes it dangerous to use in larger charges. It is frowned upon outside of priming pans and small calibers, but is listed as a viable powder for the Ruger Old Army revolver.

I use 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7 in my two .44/.45 cal revolvers and .50 cal rifle.

[rodwhaincamo]

The difference between granulations, which is rough sizes, is the rate of burn and pressure created. In general the more F's the less fouling, though some powders (Swiss and Olde Eynsford) are cleaner than others.

Many claim to get better accuracy from 2F vs 3 in larger calibers, and more so it seems in shotguns. Some guns just have a preference. It wouldn't hurt you to try both.

A general rule of thumb is to reduce the max load of 2F by 10% when using 3F instead.

[Pahoo]

Rebs,
You might find some of the previous replies, a bit confusing or at least, I think so. You have been asking a whole bunch of basic questions and that is fine. At this point, I would suggest buying one of the Black-Powder manuals, Like the series by Sam Fadala. Also get some manuals from the manufacturers of you M/L's. .....

One note of safety is to only use FFFF-G for priming charges on Flintlocks. You can also go one the internet and find pictures and descriptions of Black-Powder grading. ......

Be Safe !!!!!

[maillemaker]

General rule of thumb is the more the "F's" in a grain, the coarser it is.

I think you mean the finer it is.

I shoot 3F in everything - revolvers, muskets, and smoothbore.

As was already said, 3F burns faster than 2F due to more surface area from the finer particles. So you can generally get the same performance with less 3F than a given charge of 2F.

Some people find that 2F shoots more accurately with a given gun and load.

As was already said, it's worthwhile to do a load workup with both powders and see what works best.

Steve

[bedbugbilly]

Steve says it well . . .

I have always used 2F on .50 or larger and 3F on anything smaller -

BUT

when I have been short of one or the other, I have just used what I had and adjusted the load. AND . . . in over fifty years of shooting, I have never felt the need or used some of the heavy loads that some folks seem to feel they need to use. But I won't add anymore on that to avoid any confusion.

In my C & B revolves, I PREFER 3F but when short of it, have used 2F. The same on my rifles and smoothbores - percussion or flint - depending on the caliber.

$F (FFFFG)? Keep it for priming flintlocks only.

The only thing I ever used 1F (FG) for in all the years I've been shooting were small (i.e. 1" bore) cannons and a 4 gauge original percussion "market gun" that I had in my collection. A few shots out of that 4 gauge was enough to last me a lifetime.

OP - if you are new to BP, do yourself a big favor and pick yourself up a good Black Powder ML Handbook or Manual. Read it and study it as it will provide you with all kinds of information.

I learned to shoot BP from an old gunsmith that was almost ninety - and that was more that fifty years ago. Reproductions were just starting to show up but usually, originals were utilized. That's what I learned on. The best advice that old gunsmith gave me as far as powder charges was - "use enough to get the job don but not so much as to waste powder". Pretty sage advice. Ideally, your charge should be so that when that projectile leaves the muzzle, all o the powder is consumed. If not, it will fly out the muzzle and be wasted. BP is no different than reloading for smokeless cartridges. Start low and work you way up until you fine the "sweet spot" of your firearm. Even with the same make/model of a BP gun, each one can shoot differently. So work with your individual firearm and determine what it shoots best with.

Be safe and have fun!

[Model12Win]

You can use FF for priming pan and up until the late 1700s or around 1790s, a soldier's musket was primed from his paper cartridge.

What do mean?

Flintlock muskets were used by all major armies until they were replaced by percussion muskets and just after that, percussion rifled muskets. This only occured in the late 1830s to 1840s. Up until then, you bet they continued to use the same powder in their musket cartridges to both prime the pan and charge the gun.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Have three calibers. 45-54-& 58. Found all three side locks preferred 2-FFg over 3-FFFg. Don't know why? They just do.

One difference in the F graded powders that I know. 3F can almost match the performance of 2F and can do it with 10% less in measurement. That 10% saving in powder measure shot after shot with 3F appeals to many.
As for me I make and shoot my own corned powder.
"I just load mine up with what I found they prefer.> 2-FF"

[Gunplummer]

I totally agree with PAhoo's post. I started out and bought a book on muzzleloading. A good one will also give you load info and all manner of little clues to help you along. What is in this thread is a lot of confusion for a "Starter" guy. I don't want to scare you, but I know of two people that seriously messed themselves up with muzzleloaders. One incident for sure was lack of knowledge about load process.

[rebs]

I have been reading my second book on muzzleloaders , but also know I have more to learn. I have been shooting pistols, rifles and shotguns for over 50 years. I have been reloading my own ammo for just about as long. I first got into muzzle loaders last year when I bought a used 58 cal from a cousin. A month ago I bought a used 50 cal from a friend at our shooting club. I ask questions to learn and gain more knowledge. I apologize if I have been asking too many questions.

[Pahoo]

I apologize if I have been asking too many questions.

None needed as we are all on a learning curve. I use to be a BuckSkinner and Pahoo, was and still is, my camp name. Some of the most fun I ever had, was during those days. But during those days, I picked up a lot of bad habits by listening to folks without verification. One fella I use to shoot with, lost two fingers during loading. Have never been shot but have been burned too many times. ....

As M/L shooters, we develop our own techniques and questionable habits. I never pass up the chance to read anything dealing with this subject. I have learned much from reading as well as asking questions. .......

Be Safe !!!

[rebs]

I have both "The complete black powder handbook by Sam Fadala" and also "the gun digest black powder loading manual by Sam Fadala". IMHO both are excellent books. I have read the first one and have started to read the second one.

[B.L.E.]

I have used FFFg in shotguns with good results. Also, you have to consider the brand of gunpowder. Swiss or Olde Eynsforth FFg is almost like Goex or Schuetzen FFFg.
Though frowned upon, I have used light charges of FFFFg in my short barrel derringer with good results. By light I mean around 10 grains. With 3f, the gun is so inefficient that even large charges of powder do not give good velocity out of that ultra short barrel.

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I would also recommend the Sam Fadala book.
I rarely use black powder but Pyrodex pistol (fffg equivalent) works well for light to moderate level loads with 50 cal round balls.

[4V50 Gary]

maillemaker - I stand corrected. The more "F" the finer the powder.

[Irish Jack]

The large bore using long powder strings perform better with large grain powder such as 2/F. The reason being the course powder allows a better "Fire Path" through the charge. In many of the large BP Cartridges 1/F cannon grade is used.

[Erno86]

I usually prefer a 90 grain FFG in GOEX, for match loads, for my 50 caliber Thompson Hawken rifle.

I've used an 80 grain FFFG load in the Hawken, but since the powder is faster burning, the FFFG load gives a substantially stouter recoil; and will eventually give me a headache over an extended shooting period.