Do you keep a round in the chamber?

[WildBill45]

if one has to ask the question ... then

[manta49]

All guns are loaded all of the time, this includes a round in the chamber.

Not if there is no magazine in it. For safety you always treat it as loaded, not the same as it actually being loaded. And as I said here a loaded firearm does not have a round in the chamber. Loaded and ready has a round in the chamber . I know American soldiers in Afghanistan when they arrive on base they will be told magazine in firearm no round in chamber, to me the firearm is loaded but has no round in chamber so its not ready. But this is an American forum so when in Rome.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by zombietactics

All of us have been conditioned by the media to believe that guns just "go off". It's BS of course, but there is no amount of initial knowledge or experience which will immediately overcome that conditioning.

I respectfully disagree. I was taught to shoot by my grandfather when my age was still in the single digits. Grandpa's grandfather shot himself through the jaw when cleaning an "unloaded" firearm. Grandpa made it abundantly clear that guns do not "go off" by themselves, they go off when people pull the trigger.

FWIW, I am now 70+ years of age, so I learned that lesson a loooooong time ago.

[FALshootist]

Quote:
All guns are loaded all of the time, this includes a round in the chamber.

Not if there is no magazine in it. For safety you always treat it as loaded, not the same as it actually being loaded. And as I said here a loaded firearm does not have a round in the chamber. Loaded and ready has a round in the chamber . I know American soldiers in Afghanistan when they arrive on base they will be told magazine in firearm no round in chamber, to me the firearm is loaded but has no round in chamber so its not ready. But this is an American forum so when in Rome.

manta49, if you served, thank you for your service.

That said, I could care less what the military does. Pretty much every modern police force carries with a round in the chamber and a full magazine. Most are Glocks.

The same for me. Any gun I may or may not own has a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber.

[manta49]

manta49, if you served, thank you for your service.

That said, I could care less what the military does. Pretty much every modern police force carries with a round in the chamber and a full magazine. Most are Glocks.

The same for me. Any gun I may or may not own has a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber.

I never said police forces did not carry with a round in the chamber. And I never said people shouldn't carry with a round in the chamber. I did say people should take advice and make up their own minds what way they carry their firearms.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by zombietactics

If a gun cannot fire, it is therefore "unloaded". If the gun requires manipulation - besides disengaging a safety - it's "unloaded"

If a gun requires nothing more than the manipulation of simple controls (and trigger) in order to fire ... it's "loaded".

Unfortunately, everyone on the internet does not get to make up their own definition of what "unloaded" means and apply it to others.

As your bio shows that you are in northern California, you need to review your definition of "loaded" as it is applied by many state laws (including yours).

CA Penal Code 25850

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory.

1.1. “Loaded”

A firearm is “loaded” when there is:
1.an unexpended cartridge or shell,
2.consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot,
3.in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm…including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm.

http://www.shouselaw.com/12031.html#1.1

[ttarp]

magazine, or clip thereof

Aww man, I'm going to say clip whenever I feel like it now...

[zombietactics]

Unfortunately, everyone on the internet does not get to make up their own definition of what "unloaded" means and apply it to others.

As your bio shows that you are in northern California, you need to review your definition of "loaded" as it is applied by many state laws (including yours).

I believe I was clear to the extent that the media and government often are mistaken in their definitions. We are often treated to stupidities like "the shoulder thing that goes up", or "30-caliber assault clips" ... or even the inaccurate use of the made up term "assault rifle".

I am aware that the law (i.e. "government") gets it wrong as well. Note the use in the law of the term "clip", which does not somehow redefine the meaning of that term or make it synonymous with "magazine", for anyone who knows what they are talking about. Does the presence of a side-saddle full of shells attached to a shotgun render it "loaded"? No thinking person would say so, having even a rudimentary understanding of shotguns. Yet, the law seems to say so. That fact that the law defines an unloaded gun as loaded is of as much concern to me as if they defined "cat" as "any animal with fur". A dog would remain a dog (and not a cat) nonetheless.

The definitions of words are not a matter of legal decree beyond the application of the law itself. If we were discussing a legal matter regarding loaded vs. unloaded. I'd be careful to use legal definitions and point them out as such. We aren't, so I didn't.

The definition of the word "loaded", in common use for centuries, is what is at issue. Please study the etymology of the word and come independently to the same conclusion, assuming you are open to study and self-correction. You can start with it's usage prior to the invention of firearms. An arrow with the nock placed in on the serving point of the string is not considered "loaded", because it is only when the bow is drawn that it is "loaded" ... i.e. "under load". That's where the term comes from, and forms the basis of all further understanding of the term. The term has a history, and it's meaning is clear for anyone wishing to learn it.

I understand the law, and abide by the law. I have no problem telling people that the law - or the language that it uses - is stupid, in any case where it is stupid.

[mavracer]

Zombietactics
If you load one round into the magazine and load that magazine into the gun the gun is now loaded
Not sure how you can come up with it being unloaded as that would mean the gun is empty, the chamber is unloaded the gun is loaded.

[zombietactics]

No, a gun in a condition where no round is chambered is unloaded, as it cannot be fired. This is similar to the manner in which old military cannon were not considered "loaded" or "in battery" unless a fuse was inserted. The fact that a ball, wadding and charge were present did not make the cannon "loaded" without that fuse in place (or a primer charge placed in the vent field).

"Unloaded" does not mean "empty". It simply means that the gun is incapable of being fired through simple manipulation of its controls. Even current dictionaries make this distinction ... "loaded" is roughly synonymous with "charged" or "in battery". To "charge" a weapon is to place a round in firing position.

[Theohazard]

Guys, I think this argument is showing us why many people are taught to refer to "Condition 1", "Condition 3", etc. when referring to semi-auto firearms; simply saying a gun is "loaded" or "unloaded" just isn't descriptive enough.

[Dave T]

I believe I was clear to the extent that the media and government often are mistaken in their definitions. We are often treated to stupidities like "the shoulder thing that goes up", or "30-caliber assault clips" ... or even the inaccurate use of the made up term "assault rifle".

I am aware that the law (i.e. "government") gets it wrong as well. Note the use in the law of the term "clip", which does not somehow redefine the meaning of that term or make it synonymous with "magazine", for anyone who knows what they are talking about. Does the presence of a side-saddle full of shells attached to a shotgun render it "loaded"? No thinking person would say so, having even a rudimentary understanding of shotguns. Yet, the law seems to say so. That fact that the law defines an unloaded gun as loaded is of as much concern to me as if they defined "cat" as "any animal with fur". A dog would remain a dog (and not a cat) nonetheless.

The definitions of words are not a matter of legal decree beyond the application of the law itself. If we were discussing a legal matter regarding loaded vs. unloaded. I'd be careful to use legal definitions and point them out as such. We aren't, so I didn't.

The definition of the word "loaded", in common use for centuries, is what is at issue. Please study the etymology of the word and come independently to the same conclusion, assuming you are open to study and self-correction. You can start with it's usage prior to the invention of firearms. An arrow with the nock placed in on the serving point of the string is not considered "loaded", because it is only when the bow is drawn that it is "loaded" ... i.e. "under load". That's where the term comes from, and forms the basis of all further understanding of the term. The term has a history, and it's meaning is clear for anyone wishing to learn it.

I understand the law, and abide by the law. I have no problem telling people that the law - or the language that it uses - is stupid, in any case where it is stupid.

Well said zombietactics! I concur 100%.

Dave

[mavracer]

No, a gun in a condition where no round is chambered is unloaded, as it cannot be fired. This is similar to the manner in which old military cannon were not considered "loaded" or "in battery" unless a fuse was inserted. The fact that a ball, wadding and charge were present did not make the cannon "loaded" without that fuse in place.

Well yes a singleshot has to have a round chambered to be loaded otherwise it's unloaded as it is empty.

"loaded" is roughly synonymous with "charged" or "in battery".

No it's not, Right from Merriam Webster "of a gun : having bullets inside"

And "assault rifle" is a very real well defined term "assault weapon" is not

[zombietactics]

... No it's not, Right from Merriam Webster "of a gun : having bullets inside" ...

Please see this link: LINK

... and see the following:

3. charge (a firearm) with ammunition.
synonyms: prime, charge, prepare to fire/use More

You can also check Oxford: LINK ...

1.1 " (Of a firearm) charged with ammunition:
'a loaded gun' "

Is a firearm "primed", "charged" or as such "prepared to fire", without a round in the chamber?

Note the similarity to how we "load" a computer program. It's not "loaded" if it is simply "installed" or because the disc is in the drive. When I have loaded MS word, it's synonymous with "run". If I need to do something besides type (or click buttons) ... the program is not loaded.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by zombietactics

or even the inaccurate use of the made up term "assault rifle".

As often as people get this wrong, I feel like there needs to be a sticky on this: The term "assault rifle" is a well-defined term for a specific type of rifle. The term was coined by the Germans (some day it was Hitler himself) in WWII. Just because many people misuse the term "assault rifle", that doesn't mean it's not a valid technical term. But the term "assault weapon" is a made-up political term; I'm guessing you're confusing those two terms.

[zombietactics]

... Just because many people misuse the term "assault rifle", that doesn't mean it's not a valid technical term. But the term "assault weapon" is a made-up political term; I'm guessing you're confusing those two terms. ...

Yep, you are correct ... I know better, made a mistake, and have no trouble admitting it in this case.

[Onward Allusion]

Aside from NOT being in a holster . . .

This is directed at the guys who believe that the chamber in a semi should be kept empty. What's the difference between having one in the chamber in a semi-auto pistol and a revolver with all chambers filled???

Absolutely no difference. How many of you would keep an empty chamber or even two in a modern revolver that has transfer bar ignition? Probably not a whole lot. If you do keep an empty chamber or two in a MODERN revolver, then you shouldn't be shooting or owning any guns.

[jnichols2]

Back to the subject?

I started to carry in January with no round in the chamber.

I reached the point of being comfortable with a round chambered in my double action Ruger LC9. Who is going to "accidently" pull a trigger with a pull as long as a LC9?

I recently bought a Sig Sauer P938, 1911 style single action. I haven't measured the pull length, but it's very short. Also; "cocked and locked" leaves a different impression than "double action".

With safety off, the Sig sure goes off easier than the Ruger.

I'm almost ready to go with a loaded chamber again, but only when I'm ready.

[mavracer]

from your first link the first site
"2. containing ammunition or an
explosive charge: a loaded rifle."


from your second link under english synonyms
" containing ammunition"

You can call it what ever you like but if it's got ammunition in it it's loaded

[manta49]

Absolutely no difference. How many of you would keep an empty chamber or even two in a modern revolver that has transfer bar ignition? Probably not a whole lot. If you do keep an empty chamber or two in a MODERN revolver, then you shouldn't be shooting or owning any guns

What qualifies you to tell people if they should or should not own or shoot a firearm. Giving advice is one thing telling people what to do, and that they shouldn't have or shoot a firearm if they don't agree with you is another.

My advice carry your firearm what ever way you are comfortable with, and don't let people tell you what to do.

[RX-79G]

If you are carrying, I think it is a mistake to carry with the chamber empty. Chances are, you won't have two hands available when the fight starts.


At home, I honestly don't think it matters, and chamber empty greatly decreases the risk of an AD or ND when loading/unloading the chamber.


Keep in mind that a very large number of all ADs and NDs occur when working the slide. Minimizing that need at home is a good idea - especially if your walls aren't bulletproof. I think most people who carry should also leave the gun alone at home, with the chamber loaded in the holster at night.

[LockedBreech]

I keep all my guns chambered, even in storage, except for shotguns and rifles due to the ultralight triggers. Those I keep fired on an empty chamber, safety off, so they're quick to chamber.

If you have quality handguns there's no reason not to chamber, unless they're antique or for some other reason have defective safeties. And not chambering can cost seconds you might not have.

I treat my guns like they're loaded 100% of the time anyway. They might as well be.

[zombietactics]

... You can call it what ever you like but if it's got ammunition in it it's loaded ...

It's not a matter of what I call something, or what I or anyone else want something to mean. Neither does a stubborn insistence (for reasons unknown) contrary to the common use of standard terms-of-art.

You can find clues-to-meaning in common use. For instance, when we reference the "4 Safety Rules", we often reiterate that "all guns should be treated like they are loaded at all times".

In that respect, I don't think we are concerned about a full magazine inserted in the gun. It's the one in the chamber which causes concern, hence the meaning "loaded" in this case.

The phrase "locked and loaded" does not refer to a firearm with only a magazine inserted.

I don't know of a single firearms instructor who thinks that he is telling his students to simply insert a magazine when he commands the line to "load em up".

When you perform a "tactical reload" ... do you end up with just a magazine in the gun? With a slide lock reload, do you not release the slide and chamber a round. How could "re" doing something (reloading) mean something different than simply doing it? Logic and common sense indicate that such a position is nonsense.


Ignorant politicians, reporters, etc. aside ... the term means something, We can tell what it means through common usage. The fact that current common usage closely follows the etymological history of the term all the way to its pre-firearms beginnings only serves to make that meaning clear.

The fact that some do not know the term well, or use it in a sloppy manner is no basis upon which to argue for a meaning not in common use.

[RX-79G]

I don't know of a single firearms instructor who thinks that he is telling his students to simply insert a magazine when he commands the line to "load em up".

I can't think of a firearms instructor who wouldn't kick you off the range for calling a gun with bullets in the mag "unloaded". (And that's exactly what an Israeli instructor might expect when he says to load.)

Autos create a special circumstance where the gun is "kinda loaded". But it is loaded in the most important way because normal gun handling will transform a condition 3 gun into condition 0 even inadvertently - especially at a range where slides are supposed to be locked open when not in use.

In terms of not pointing guns at anything, in the real world we violate this all the time. It isn't an argument that makes less ready guns unloaded or excuses bad gun handling in any condition.


If your argument had any validity, we'd call SA guns in condition 2 "unloaded" as well, because no amount of trigger manipulation is going to fire the gun. But we don't, because that would be stupid. All loaded guns are loaded guns. Causing confusion about this is just going to lead to dead people.

[zombietactics]

... If your argument had any validity, we'd call SA guns in condition 2 "unloaded" as well, because no amount of trigger manipulation is going to fire the gun. ...

No. It's rather the case that an SA revolver requires a firing process which demands that one manually cock for each round fired. I said nothing about ONLY trigger manipulation. I was pretty clear that the manipulation of things like safeties were assumed. The fact that there may be corner-case arguments does not militate anything against common-use definitions and meanings. We know that not all birds fly, but this is not an argument against the common notion that "birds fly".

If you wish to counter my argument, please be certain that you counter the argument I actually made.