Henry 30-30 Ammo Problem

Vukota12 · August 23, 2012, 05:46 PM

I usually shoot Remington 150gr but on the way to the range today I picked up a box of PPU 170gr. After firing the first round I had a huge problem trying to cyle the next round. The lever felt jammed and I had to pull on it like I was trying to take it off the rifle, just to get the catridge to eject. I unloaded the rifle and used the Remington ammo instead, without a hint of even a single issue. I switched back to the PPU and the same problem happened again.

The casing, dimensions and skirt are all exactly the same size as the Remington ammo (which works without a flaw) so I'm confused why this is happening.

Has anyone ever had a similar issue or could possibly give suggestions as to why this is happening with the PPU ammo? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

the rifleer · August 23, 2012, 06:07 PM

Is the over all length of the loaded cartridges the same? It might be too long?

Vukota12 · August 23, 2012, 06:43 PM

I don't have anymore loaded Remington catridges, but here is a comparison of the spent catridges. Remington on the left, PPU on the right. There is absolutely no difference, so I don't see why I would have such a problem getting the PPU casing to eject.

big al hunter · August 23, 2012, 07:24 PM

From the pictures I would say you have high pressure in the ppu case. Look at the primers. The ppu is smashed tight to the sides of the primer pocket and the hole were the firing pin is in the bolt left a mark around the pin mark. Don't shoot any more of those.

Vukota12 · August 23, 2012, 08:02 PM

I definitely can see the difference in the primer pocket between the Remington and PPU. For further analysis here is a comparison of an unfired an fired PPU round...

I don't really see the mark around the pin mark that you mention. Here is a better pic comparison of the spent Remington and PPU rounds. I don't see any marks on one that is not on the other...

Thank you for the replies!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot · August 23, 2012, 08:33 PM

In spite of the fired primers looking close to the same, the PPU primer looks to be slightly flatter with a slightly larger crater around the firing pin strike.

This could be because of a softer primer cup material on the PPU case.

However, a crater around the firing pin strike is not a plus. It appears that the firing pin hole is overly large on this rifle, and such cratering is not a plus for the rifle's quality when it happens with standard pressure loads such as the Remington/Peters shows.

But, with your discription, and your photographs of the fired cases, it almost has to come down to excessive pressures of the PPU cartridges. What else could it be?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

big al hunter · August 23, 2012, 10:07 PM

It still appears to have more pressure or soft primers. If it is not pressure it could be bad brass. Normally brass expands upon firing and contracts slightly after the pressure subsides, allowing for easy extraction. Overly soft brass will not contract enough. Either way you probably should let the manufacturer know you had a problem. They will probably want to have the rest of the box back for testing, and you might get a refund.

Guv · August 24, 2012, 08:47 AM

Maybe the bullet was jammed into the rifling grooves?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot · August 24, 2012, 10:53 AM

Big Al Hunter,

Yes, I thought of the soft brass possibility after I sent my post off.

If that was the case, the soft brass very likely will not spring back after firing to the degree that brass of typical hardness does.

That could cause the hard extraction.

And I still don't like that over sized firing pin hole!
CDOC

Vukota12 · August 24, 2012, 03:17 PM

I will definitely not be using the ammo in the rifle again and will be sending off a letter to the company to see what they might have to say about the issue.

Again I want to thank you guys for your responses and opinions!

Vukota12 · August 31, 2012, 07:59 PM

Here is a brief follow-up for those interested....

On the 24th I sent a 3-paragraph e-mail to PPU explaining in detail exactly what happened, along with my concern and dissatisfaction of their product. Three days later I received a reply which simply stated....

"To investigate this problem, that we never faced before, please let me know the lot number of your ammo. That is four digit number stamped inside the box."

That was it. No apology, no remorse, no concern. So I replied with the stamp number and I'm still waiting to hear back.

I guess so much for the days when a company actually cared about their consumer

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot · August 31, 2012, 08:10 PM

Well, I'd tend to agree with you at first, but I'd say to give them a chance to reply to the info you have sent their way.

Then ???????

CDOC

Big Shrek · August 31, 2012, 09:12 PM

Is it just me or does the PPU case look like it has an ever-so-slightly smaller diameter at the rim??

Break out a Micrometer, if you don't have one, GET ONE...they're Invaluable when determining rifle issues and tolerances...
B'sides, they're only $10 at Harbor Freight Tools

Anyway, take multiple measurements and see what you come up with...
It could be something as simple as the extractor not getting a proper grip on the case...
or a worn extractor that can't get a grip on a smaller diameter case...as .01 can make all the difference in the world

Marlin had an issue with the 2005-2011 Marlin 60 & 795's accessory rail...as it was supposed to measure .43" wide...
yet many were coming out with .44"-.46" widths...which meant the pic rails that were tuned to the .43" specs didn't fit...
so .43" to .44" can make a difference...do I haveta make a One Red C-Hair joke here??

Mobuck · September 1, 2012, 06:47 AM

I don't shoot 30-30 but have noticed some lots of other calibers in the "foreign made" cartridges show what I'd consider high pressure symptoms. Not having a lot of instances to compare, I can only use the few observations that I've encountered but I don't use those types of ammo anymore. The only Privi ammo I currently use is 69 grain BTHP in .223 which has proven very accurate in a couple of my AR rifles. I've stopped using S&B entirely in anything after having a near lockup of the bolt in a Savage 110 in 243.

SteelChickenShooter · September 1, 2012, 07:34 PM

I bought a Henry 30-30 and dialed it in without any problems using Remington and Winchester.

Vukota12 · September 3, 2012, 01:51 AM

Quote:

I bought a Henry 30-30 and dialed it in without any problems using Remington and Winchester.

Well if sometime in the near future you happen to have the chance, grab a box of PPU 170gr. I'd be curious to hear how you make out!

jhenry · September 3, 2012, 08:50 AM

Before spending too much time blaming the PPU ammunition, I would fire some in a Winchester or Marlin 30-30. It may well be that the Henry is to blame, not the ammo.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot · September 3, 2012, 01:45 PM

Jhenry,

You may be correct.

I loaded up some .357 for a brother-in-law's Marlin rifle, and they showed pressures and extraction problems first crack out of the box.

Had use recommended loads, but ----------

Well, fired the rest of the ammo from my RUGER security six wheel gun with zero problems or issues. Not one!

So, it could be, as Jhenry indicates, the rifle. Give it a try.

CDOC

Vukota12 · September 3, 2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Before spending too much time blaming the PPU ammunition, I would fire some in a Winchester or Marlin 30-30. It may well be that the Henry is to blame, not the ammo.

Well I'm just trying to explore all options/scenarios in relation to the cause of the jamming. I will be putting the ammo through 2 different 30-30 rifles this week, and I just picked up a micrometer to do some measurement comparisons. I don't know anyone else who owns a Henry 30-30 so I was just hoping to get some results from another owner using the same ammo.

10-96 · September 3, 2012, 08:08 PM

I hope that's just a fluke you're having. If not, that might shake a lot of work I put into some of my own loading.

I shot a lot of the .223 Monarch (Academy brand PPU), I was very pleased with it's performance. It mirrored my handloads using Winchester brass. On a whim, I weighed the PPU, PPN, Winchester, LC, FC Nato, Remington, and Federal cases for weight and water capacity. I don't have the numbers here in front of me, but the PPU, PPN, and Winchesters were all within two or three tenths on averages for weight and had about the same results for water capacity.

I know you're running a 30-30, but just maybe they tend to not only run softer in the brass, but thicker as well. Who knows, there may be other issues at hand with them as well. And I do believe PPU tends to load ammo a little hotter than their U.S. counterparts, but that's just a suspicion on my part.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that on a whole, I really like the PPU stuff I've worked with so far.

TurkeyOak · September 3, 2012, 08:23 PM

I bought some Serbian Monarch 30-30 at Academy because they were out of Federal. Never again!
They wouldnt feed right or extract right. I was worried i was tearing up my Marlin.
Fortunately I had some Feds on hand and they still worked.

10-96 · September 3, 2012, 08:30 PM

TurkeyOak-
If you have the time, it might benefit a lot of shooters in the long run if you drop a line to those folks. It maight be starting to appear they don't unnerstand the .30-30 as well as they think they do.

SteelChickenShooter · September 7, 2012, 10:06 PM

I guess I just don't know what PPU ammo is or where it comes from. I have no interest in obtaining it or trying it. I have and use a couple popular brands of 30-30 ammo as mentioned (Remington & Winchester). I've always had very good experience with Henry rifles and my 30-30 is no exception. It's sort of unique with the lack of a loading gate and that long magazine tube. Then take that cutout in the tube to fit the 30-30 shell. Resembles that of a common .22 magazine tube. I like the rifle and am well satisfied with what it is and what I shoot. Maybe sometime if I ever see or find whatever PPU ammo is, I'll try it and post the results.

Salmoneye · September 8, 2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

I guess I just don't know what PPU ammo is or where it comes from.

http://www.prvipartizan.com/

Salmoneye · September 8, 2012, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I loaded up some .357 for a brother-in-law's Marlin rifle, and they showed pressures and extraction problems first crack out of the box.

Had use recommended loads, but ----------

Well, fired the rest of the ammo from my RUGER security six wheel gun with zero problems or issues. Not one!

Not surprising in the least...

This is why many manuals have different load data for the same cartridge in rifle and pistol...

Quick example is that my favorite Hornady #4 manual has a load for their 265gr FP in .44Mag that is a full 1.2gr more powder for pistol than for rifle...

Rifle = 22.2gr H-110
Pistol = 23.4gr H-110

The max pistol load in my Marlin 1894 is a nasty thump, and hard extracting...

Many older manuals with maximum mag pistol data can be overpressure in a longer carbine or rifle...

Always start low and work up...Each gun is a different animal and should be treated as such...

August 23, 2012, 05:46 PM	#1
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	Henry 30-30 Ammo Problem I usually shoot Remington 150gr but on the way to the range today I picked up a box of PPU 170gr. After firing the first round I had a huge problem trying to cyle the next round. The lever felt jammed and I had to pull on it like I was trying to take it off the rifle, just to get the catridge to eject. I unloaded the rifle and used the Remington ammo instead, without a hint of even a single issue. I switched back to the PPU and the same problem happened again. The casing, dimensions and skirt are all exactly the same size as the Remington ammo (which works without a flaw) so I'm confused why this is happening. Has anyone ever had a similar issue or could possibly give suggestions as to why this is happening with the PPU ammo? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

August 23, 2012, 06:07 PM	#2
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	Is the over all length of the loaded cartridges the same? It might be too long? __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

August 23, 2012, 06:43 PM	#3
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	I don't have anymore loaded Remington catridges, but here is a comparison of the spent catridges. Remington on the left, PPU on the right. There is absolutely no difference, so I don't see why I would have such a problem getting the PPU casing to eject. Last edited by Vukota12; August 23, 2012 at 06:57 PM.

August 23, 2012, 08:33 PM	#6
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho Posts: 531	In spite of the fired primers looking close to the same, the PPU primer looks to be slightly flatter with a slightly larger crater around the firing pin strike. This could be because of a softer primer cup material on the PPU case. However, a crater around the firing pin strike is not a plus. It appears that the firing pin hole is overly large on this rifle, and such cratering is not a plus for the rifle's quality when it happens with standard pressure loads such as the Remington/Peters shows. But, with your discription, and your photographs of the fired cases, it almost has to come down to excessive pressures of the PPU cartridges. What else could it be? Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Last edited by Crusty Deary Ol'Coot; August 24, 2012 at 10:53 AM.

August 23, 2012, 10:07 PM	#7
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	It still appears to have more pressure or soft primers. If it is not pressure it could be bad brass. Normally brass expands upon firing and contracts slightly after the pressure subsides, allowing for easy extraction. Overly soft brass will not contract enough. Either way you probably should let the manufacturer know you had a problem. They will probably want to have the rest of the box back for testing, and you might get a refund. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

August 23, 2012, 07:24 PM	#4
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	From the pictures I would say you have high pressure in the ppu case. Look at the primers. The ppu is smashed tight to the sides of the primer pocket and the hole were the firing pin is in the bolt left a mark around the pin mark. Don't shoot any more of those. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

August 23, 2012, 08:02 PM	#5
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	I definitely can see the difference in the primer pocket between the Remington and PPU. For further analysis here is a comparison of an unfired an fired PPU round... I don't really see the mark around the pin mark that you mention. Here is a better pic comparison of the spent Remington and PPU rounds. I don't see any marks on one that is not on the other... Thank you for the replies!

August 24, 2012, 08:47 AM	#8
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	Maybe the bullet was jammed into the rifling grooves?

August 24, 2012, 10:53 AM	#9
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho Posts: 531	Big Al Hunter, Yes, I thought of the soft brass possibility after I sent my post off. If that was the case, the soft brass very likely will not spring back after firing to the degree that brass of typical hardness does. That could cause the hard extraction. *And I still don't like that over sized firing pin hole!* CDOC

August 24, 2012, 03:17 PM	#10
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	I will definitely not be using the ammo in the rifle again and will be sending off a letter to the company to see what they might have to say about the issue. Again I want to thank you guys for your responses and opinions!

August 31, 2012, 07:59 PM	#11
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	Here is a brief follow-up for those interested.... On the 24th I sent a 3-paragraph e-mail to PPU explaining in detail exactly what happened, along with my concern and dissatisfaction of their product. Three days later I received a reply which simply stated.... "To investigate this problem, that we never faced before, please let me know the lot number of your ammo. That is four digit number stamped inside the box." That was it. No apology, no remorse, no concern. So I replied with the stamp number and I'm still waiting to hear back. I guess so much for the days when a company actually cared about their consumer

August 31, 2012, 08:10 PM	#12
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho Posts: 531	Well, I'd tend to agree with you at first, but I'd say to give them a chance to reply to the info you have sent their way. Then ??????? CDOC

August 31, 2012, 09:12 PM	#13
Big Shrek Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: NorthWest Florida Posts: 1,358	Is it just me or does the PPU case look like it has an ever-so-slightly smaller diameter at the rim?? Break out a Micrometer, if you don't have one, GET ONE...they're Invaluable when determining rifle issues and tolerances... B'sides, they're only $10 at Harbor Freight Tools Anyway, take multiple measurements and see what you come up with... It could be something as simple as the extractor not getting a proper grip on the case... or a worn extractor that can't get a grip on a smaller diameter case...as .01 can make all the difference in the world Marlin had an issue with the 2005-2011 Marlin 60 & 795's accessory rail...as it was supposed to measure .43" wide... yet many were coming out with .44"-.46" widths...which meant the pic rails that were tuned to the .43" specs didn't fit... so .43" to .44" can make a difference...do I haveta make a One Red C-Hair joke here?? __________________ Marlin Specialist Calico Specialist A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.

September 1, 2012, 06:47 AM	#14
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I don't shoot 30-30 but have noticed some lots of other calibers in the "foreign made" cartridges show what I'd consider high pressure symptoms. Not having a lot of instances to compare, I can only use the few observations that I've encountered but I don't use those types of ammo anymore. The only Privi ammo I currently use is 69 grain BTHP in .223 which has proven very accurate in a couple of my AR rifles. I've stopped using S&B entirely in anything after having a near lockup of the bolt in a Savage 110 in 243.

September 1, 2012, 07:34 PM	#15
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	I bought a Henry 30-30 and dialed it in without any problems using Remington and Winchester.

September 3, 2012, 08:50 AM	#17
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	Before spending too much time blaming the PPU ammunition, I would fire some in a Winchester or Marlin 30-30. It may well be that the Henry is to blame, not the ammo. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

September 3, 2012, 01:45 PM	#18
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho Posts: 531	Jhenry, You may be correct. I loaded up some .357 for a brother-in-law's Marlin rifle, and they showed pressures and extraction problems first crack out of the box. Had use recommended loads, but ---------- Well, fired the rest of the ammo from my RUGER security six wheel gun with zero problems or issues. Not one! So, it could be, as Jhenry indicates, the rifle. Give it a try. CDOC

September 3, 2012, 08:08 PM	#20
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	I hope that's just a fluke you're having. If not, that might shake a lot of work I put into some of my own loading. I shot a lot of the .223 Monarch (Academy brand PPU), I was very pleased with it's performance. It mirrored my handloads using Winchester brass. On a whim, I weighed the PPU, PPN, Winchester, LC, FC Nato, Remington, and Federal cases for weight and water capacity. I don't have the numbers here in front of me, but the PPU, PPN, and Winchesters were all within two or three tenths on averages for weight and had about the same results for water capacity. I know you're running a 30-30, but just maybe they tend to not only run softer in the brass, but thicker as well. Who knows, there may be other issues at hand with them as well. And I do believe PPU tends to load ammo a little hotter than their U.S. counterparts, but that's just a suspicion on my part. EDIT: Just wanted to add that on a whole, I really like the PPU stuff I've worked with so far. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

September 3, 2012, 08:23 PM	#21
TurkeyOak Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: North Georgia Posts: 53	I bought some Serbian Monarch 30-30 at Academy because they were out of Federal. Never again! They wouldnt feed right or extract right. I was worried i was tearing up my Marlin. Fortunately I had some Feds on hand and they still worked.

September 3, 2012, 08:30 PM	#22
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	TurkeyOak- If you have the time, it might benefit a lot of shooters in the long run if you drop a line to those folks. It maight be starting to appear they don't unnerstand the .30-30 as well as they think they do. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

September 7, 2012, 10:06 PM	#23
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	PPU Ammo I guess I just don't know what PPU ammo is or where it comes from. I have no interest in obtaining it or trying it. I have and use a couple popular brands of 30-30 ammo as mentioned (Remington & Winchester). I've always had very good experience with Henry rifles and my 30-30 is no exception. It's sort of unique with the lack of a loading gate and that long magazine tube. Then take that cutout in the tube to fit the 30-30 shell. Resembles that of a common .22 magazine tube. I like the rifle and am well satisfied with what it is and what I shoot. Maybe sometime if I ever see or find whatever PPU ammo is, I'll try it and post the results.