Mexico deported more than 30,000 illegal workers

[AZ]

if they can do it why can't we
az

Mexico deported more than 30,000 illegal workers in five months
EFE - 6/9/2002

TUXTLA GUTIERREZ, Chiapas - Officials in the southern Mexican state of Chiapas deported more than 30,000 undocumented immigrants between January and May, officials reported Thursday.

Most of the deportees were Central or South Americans who had tried to traverse the republic to illegally enter the United States, said Javier Bolaños of the National Migration Institute (INM).

Chiapas borders Guatemala and is one of the main crossing points for undocumented immigrants entering Mexico.

Nearly half of those deported over the past five months were Guatemalans, added Bolaños, who said 3,000 - or 10 percent - of the overall number had been deported by officials during the last week, alone.

Mexico has agreements with most Latin American countries that enable it to deport undocumented immigrants to their nations of origin.

Nearly 1,000 Ecuadorians were intercepted aboard fishing vessels on the high seas over the past few months, Bolaños added, noting the immigrant smugglers are increasingly using maritime routes because they are safer and cheaper.

http://www.thenews.com.mx/noticia.asp?id=27486

[Standing Wolf]

We need to follow Mexico's lead in a serious way.

[glock glockler]

The main problem here is socialism, both in the US and in other countries.

It is a problem for us because 1) we do get parasites who want to get on the dole, and 2) it holds our industry and innovation back. The other countries in South and Latin America suffer from this as well. Mexicans and others wouldn't be trying to come here if their own countries didn't suck so much.

To solve this we must 1) ditch socialism in the US and 2) ditch solialism in other countries. See, isn't that simple?

[Libertarian]

Why can't we do it? Because it is racist when we defend out jobs and our country and it is only right when they defend theirs.

[Dagny]

We can't do it because it's like pouring water back into a leaky bucket.
The deportees are back here within a week or two.

We MUST shut down the attraction of easy welfare.
Before the flames start, these illegals DO get easy welfare
as witnessed by those who have to provide it:barf:

[bullet44]

"illegals DO get easy welfare"

Big time,hospitals, schools,etc.

[foghornl]

Where did Mexico deport them to? The USA???? Probably. Just like the Cuban Boat Lift of the '70's. Most of what we got was the criminals that even Fidel didn't want.

[Selfdfenz]

You know we got a problem when the illegals from other South American countries headed to the US start to clog up the system in Mexico so much it starts threatening the steady and uninterrupted flow of Mexican illegals headed to the US.

Mexico......we are sorry.

Looks like the Mexican government WILL protect its "turff" in this matter. Kind of funny.
S-

[RobW]

Don't blame Mexico, it is our own insanity!

[SpyGuy]

these illegals DO get easy welfare

That is certainly half the problem. Unfortunately, most people fail to realize or acknowledge the other half of America's "easy welfare" problem.

Besides the attraction of "social services," many--if not most--illegal immigrants come to America seeking some form of employment. There is a huge demand for these "migrant workers" in agriculture, manufacturing, construction, and other industries requiring cheap, unskilled labor. And that is the main reason why there is no immigration reform. Peel back the onion on this issue and, after you get through the layers of liberal ideology and rhetoric, you will find that it all boils down to cheap labor for big business. Because money drives politics--on both sides of the aisle--much more powerfully than does ideology.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not a business basher. I fully support the concepts of free market and free economy. But that's where our current problems lie. Our market and our economy are no longer free: they are controlled, regulated, and manipulated by central government and a corrupted legal system. And business, unable to scale back the government regulations or legal precidents, does the next best thing: it circumvents the restrictions by hiring illegal immigrants (or by moving their business operations to other countries).

The three things that drive the demand for illegal immigrant workers are:

1) A welfare system that effectively removes vast numbers of citizens from the low-end labor market. Immigrant advocates claim that illegals and other migrant workers are good for America because they do the jobs that no Americans want. What they fail to mention is why Americans don't want those jobs. Because the people who used to make up the labor class of America would now rather sit in their government subsidized homes on their government subsidized butts watching government subsidized TV and smoking government subsidized cigarettes. Go back sixty or more years and look at who worked the fields, the construction, the manufacturing of America: American citizens, many--if not most--of whom were white.

2) Federal and state labor laws that make hiring, employing, and firing citizens a complex and costly proposition. Everything from minimum wage mandates to social security "contributions" to unemployment insurance to discrimination policies to OSHA requirements. Given a choice between hiring a citizen "by the book" and hiring an illegal "under the table," which do you think is the more attractive candidate, particulalry for unskilled, seasonal labor. Even IF an employer gets hit with an INS slap-on-the-wrist and the accompanying fines, it would probably still be cheaper and less of a headache to continue to hire the illegals.

3) Corrupt tort practice in this country that turns every business into a deep pockets cash cow for for the unscrupulous worker (and his/her more unscrupulous lawyers) who decides to sue (or just threaten to sue) the business for any perceived injustice, real or imagined. Of course these practices are enabled by the thousands of pages of workplace rules and regulations foisted upon businesses by the government. Again, the illegal immigrant has been favored because (up until recently) he/she was (a) generally more grateful to have a decent job; and (b) not willing to expose him/herself to deportation. Of course, this benefit is quickly diminishing as pro-immigrant activists (i.e., money-grubbing lawyers) have started filing lawsuits on behalf of illegals who are protected from deportation and have been coached in the ways of entitlement. Yes, now everyone can have a shot at the American "tort lottery" game.

Only when we eliminate the social welfare, the over-bearing government regulations, and the corrupt tort practices in this country will we see an end to illegal immigration.

[Libertarian]

To a question posted earlier: Mexico is being invaded by Central Americans looking for work in their rich cousin to the North. It is all a matter of perspective.

[Russ Howard]

The Libertarian "solution": Get rid of socialism and welfare and then immigration won't be a "problem".

Problem with the Libertarian analysis:

1. People want to come here largely because our economy is far better than the [relatively] corrupt socialist countries they live in.

2. Eliminating welfare and socialism will make our economy even more attractive for immigrants than it is now.

3. Therefore, getting rid of welfare and socialism will cause a gigantic increase in illegal immigration (and legal, if we fully open the borders as most libertarians want).

4. With fully open borders, net immigration will occur until OUR quality of life drops so far that the typical would-be immigrant is no better off moving here than staying where they are or going elsewhere.

Whether or not we eliminate welfare, the great bulk of the world's population would be better off here than where they live now. Thus, were we to totally open the borders as libertarians want, billions would want to move here.

BILLIONS.

Imagine that.

Think society's in your hair now? Wait till our population's 10 times its current size. This is something anyone who values freedom should intuitively understand.

[1goodshot]

Mexico is a corrupt 3rd world country,I cant blame them for wanting to leave,but I don't want them coming here.

[SpyGuy]

Problem with the Libertarian analysis

Russ, I'm not sure if your post was directed at me, but I'll respond.

While I lean towards the Libertarian end of the spectrum on many issues, I have never advocated open borders. A "nation" without borders is no longer a nation. We should continue to allow legal immigration, but we should shut down illegal immigration to the maximum extent possible.

I think we should build a solid wall across our southern border as it is by far the most porous. Illegal immigration across that border represents the greatest threat to our existance and our security as an independent nation. As I have said before, a property with a fence around it to keep people in is called a prison (e.g., the Berlin wall), but a property with a fence around it to keep people out is called a home. We need to protect our home by screening whom we allow in as guests or residents of our home.

We should also overhaul the INS that currently allows vast numbers of foreigners on visitor, student, and other temporary visas to simply disappear into our society.

That said, we should still eliminate the welfare, socialism, regulations, and legal jeopardy that currently makes illegals attractive candidates for filling business hiring needs. From reading your post, you seem to imply that socialism in America is good because it stifles the sucess that would draw more illegals.

But your arguments fail to address my thesis: illegals are drawn to this country because there is a ready supply of jobs for them (as well as a ready supply of social services). Eliminate the job supply and the government handouts, and there will be significantly less incentive to come to America, no matter how much better the overall standard of living is here. It sucks not having any viable means of support; it sucks even more so when it happens in a foreign country with no relatives or friends (or socialist government) to fall back on.

[Jonbenjon]

A huge number of the illegals in this country are male, with their family still in the country of origin. They work sweatshop conditions for 6 to 8 months, then go back home.

These folks are not sucking up on the social services....and since many of them are working under a false ssn they actually pay into the system without any hope of getting money back out.

Think about it....the source for cheap labor in this country has always been legal immigrants...indentured servants in the 1700's, Irish/Chinese/Eastern Europeans/Italians/etc in the 1800's.

So perhaps the source of the problem was the (IMHO) paranoid clampdown on the legal immigration in the early part of the 1900's.

funny thing also, since the welfare reform/back to work thing got going I see that the welfare roles are way down but the flow of folks across the border at night doesn't seem to be slowing down at all....

[glock glockler]

Russ Howard,

If we got rid of our socialist BS, the only immigrants we would get would be those that want to work hard and produce, freeloaders would go to Europe or other socialist countries.

I also believe that we should "helping" other countries ditch their socialism as well. Pick 2 or 3 countries to be economic and political partners, preferably one or two of them would be in our hemisphere, and help them adopt a free-market economy. Their improved economy would help us, as we now have a stronger trading partner, and immigrants would have other good countries to choose from. The partner countries would also serve as evidence that free-market principles work, and they would also become strong political and possibly military allies.

Ideally, they would take it upon themselves to help other countries develop their ecomony, etc. Instead of a world of despotism and poverty, we could have a growing world of peace and prosperity.

Freeloading dolers would become an endangered species

[Russ Howard]

Spy Guy,

It wasn't directed at you. I think I agree with the bulk of what you say, and I don't think I've ignored your analysis, though I'm looking at it from a different angle.

Eliminating "welfare" decreases the allure for some immigrants, especially if you include free government "education" and some other items as welfare. At over $9,000 per student per year, K-12 education alone now costs well over $100,000. Largely paid for by current citizens.

Eliminating welfare may also temporarily cause increased competition for lower paid jobs, temporarily decreasing the allure for immigrants. It's a second order effect. As Jonbenjon points out, illegal immigration has increased even as the welfare rolls have dropped.

You're right that if there's no welfare and they can't get jobs, they won't come. But the only way to keep people from getting jobs in a free-market economy is to make it illegal to hire them and enforce that law. But then you don't have open borders.

I don't think socialism is good. I think it's bad. But getting rid of it will not stop illegal immigration. In fact, it would dramatically accelerate it. The absense of socialism is a far greater draw for immigration than our current welfare schemes. Welfare or not, eliminating socialism and moving to a truer, free market economy would enable unlimited numbers of immigrants to get jobs.

BILLIONS, in fact.

I don't care if they work or not. That's going to suck huge.

[Zander]

...the other half of America's "easy welfare" problem.

Bravo, SpyGuy! Your analysis was so good that I printed it out. Thanks for sharing ammo.

[USGuns]

...the US does not need any more people. Here's my mantra and is the real solution:

"We should be exporting freedom, not importing people."

[Russ Howard]

USGuns: "We should be exporting freedom, not importing people."

Yes!

[SpyGuy]

But the only way to keep [illegal aliens] from getting jobs in a free-market economy is to make it illegal to hire them and enforce that law.

That's certainly one way of doing it. But then, could it really be called a "free-market"? As a "small government" advocate, I would hope that there are other ways of achieving the goal.

I would think that, given the choice between hiring a "legal" vs. an "illegal" (all things being equal), the vast majority of legitimate businesses would hire the legal worker (US citizen or legal immigrant). The problem now is that all things are not equal: the government has created a business environment that favors the hiring of illegals for most jobs that they can perform (typically, unskilled or low-skill labor). If we were to eliminate the government programs as I mentioned previously, the playing field would be leveled. In fact the playing field would likely tilt in favor of the legal laborer, as he/she does have some inherent advantages over an illegal (being able to speak English being one natural advantage).

With the elimination of welfare and other nanny state social services, there will be a much greater supply of legal laborers to fill the low-end jobs in our economy. Will there be enough? I suspect so. Ultimately, self-preservation will drive most of our society's current freeloaders (welfare recipients and many of the unemployed) to seek jobs.

If not, we can always increase the number of legal immigrants. But perhaps a better solution would be for our businesses to continue to expand to where the labor is in other countries, thus giving the residents in those countries greater incentive to stay where they are and build up their own societies.

Also remember, one of the reasons for the current high demand for illegals is the cost of doing business in this country (tax, regulatory, and legal burdens) and the cost of living for consumers (again, tax, regulatory, and legal burdens). By eliminating the social services, overbearing regulations, unjust legal jeopardy, and overall cutting the size and cost of government for everyone, then business will have more money to pay wages (and thus attract more and better workers), and consumers will have more money to buy goods (thus allowing businesses to pass on to the consumer the possible higher costs of legal labor).

But then you don't have open borders.

And once again, I don't believe we should have open borders. In fact, I see no legitimate reason why we should. (The argument that we should open our borders because this country once had no restrictions on immigration is as meaningless as stating that we should continue to own slaves because our country once practiced slavery. The world has changed since the time our country was founded and we must recognize and adapt to those changes.)

Constitutionally, there are very few reasons for our federal government. But one reason--perhaps the ONLY good reason--is for the national defense of our country. Protecting our borders and sealing them against invasion and infiltration is a federal imperative. Too bad our federal government does so many (worthless) things it is not authorized to do, and fails to perform one of the few (genuinely important) tasks it is required to do.

[SpyGuy]

Russ, you have emphatically stated that if we were to reform our government and eliminate our socialist programs (as I have suggested), then BILLIONS of illegals would invade our country.

But so far, you have not offered any possible solutions to our illegal immigration problems. (Fancifully declaring that we should "export freedom" is hardly a well-reasoned or realistic policy.)

I would welcome any ideas you might have on preventing or stopping the BILLIONS of illegals from drowing America.

[Russ Howard]

Spy Guy:

Making and enforcing laws against hiring illegals IS consistent with a free market. It's consistent with a free market for the labor of U.S. citizens. It's not consistent, of course, with open borders or with a free market in the labor of illegals.

Again, if you eliminate socialism, you strengthen the economy. That a free-market economy can provide a virtually unlimited number of jobs is not a very controversial assertion. In an unfettered economy, supply will easily create its own demand in that regard.

I disagree with those who think immigrants primarily come here for welfare or to get on the dole. Since immigrants come largely for a better economy and job market and a better quality of life, a truly unfettered free-market America without the restrictions you refer to would be a far greater draw for immigrants, both legal and illegal, than today's mixed, semi-socialist economy is.

Eliminating socialism and moving to a free-market implies getting rid of the minimum wage. With open borders and without the minimum wage, there would be an endless supply of folks coming from countries where they earn a few dollars a month, folks who would be comparatively rich if they could live here and work at even a small fraction of the current minimum wage.

If there are people willing to work for a tiny wage, it will be profitable to hire them, whether they speak English or not, and our former welfare recipients will have to compete with them.

After all, the main reason they come here to begin with is it's relatively less socialist and less fettered than where they are now. So how could making it even more free make it less of a draw?

Consequently, if we don't want to be invaded more than we already are, we need to bite the bullet, strengthen and vigorously enforce the laws against illegal immigration, and re-restrict legal immigration as well -- ESPECIALLY if we plan on getting rid of socialism.

What I'm pointing out is there's no easy way out; no easy way around enforcing laws against illegal immigration. Some people think the easy way out is to eliminate socialism, etc., but that will only make the immigration problem worse.

My goal here was not to go into exactly how to enforce laws against illegal immigration, though I disagree with those who claim it will be difficult once we have the will to do it. The American public first has to decide we will no longer tolerate the invasion.

My goal is to help give us the will to stop it. We don't even TRY to enforce those laws, because both parties have sold out our country's soverignty, our heritage, and our children's birthright to various treasonous special interest groups, with help from foolish libertarian types. And many of us as individuals are willing to sell out our own heritage for a steady supply of cheap labor, so we can have cheap hamburgers, cheap gardeners, cheap maids, etc.

The problem is not that we can't stop illegal immigration. Of course we can. The problem is we don't really want to.

Before we can stop it, we have to want to stop it. And that's not going to happen as long as libertarians keep spreading the false hope that getting rid of welfare and socialism (thus making the economy an even stronger job-creation machine than it already is) will somehow magically stop massive immigration, when in fact it will do the exact opposite.

(Of course, some libertarians will actually tell you they'd be happy to see our population grow into the billions.)

Exporting freedom is hardly a fanciful notion. We've done it before, and it's exactly what we should be trying to do now. The freer the rest of the world, the less demand to move here.