Optics Buying Advice. . . .

[Nathan]

I see lots of "What scope for my ###?" threads and inevitably, they seem tainted by what the LGS has in stock or is pushing. That's OK for the gotta have it today types or need it now set, but I thought I would share some more measured advice.

Which optic:
I've tried to write on this and there are many opinions best left to a different thread. . .

Frankly, I would come up with a clear what you want list first:
- low magnification range
- high magnification minimum
- weight
- form factor - i.e. basic size
- BDC, Turn turrets or Max Point Blank Range methods
- durability factor - safe queen, range, hunting, field sniper, dropping it out of a helicopter(or flight of concrete stairs might happen)
- Optical clarity - daytime (not into sun), hunting (dawn to dusk), night use, in a dark building w/o light

Then try some at the big box store, especially if they will let you go outside or you can look into a dark corner inside. The optical difference mid day is minimal from $200 - $4000, IMHO, but you have to show yourself. Frankly, dusk is a good time to look through an optic out side. Unlike what your eye doctor says, I will tell you to look into the sun. . .or more correctly 10 - 20 deg off direct. That will blurr a crap scope. . .and some high dollar ones too! Anyways, you decide. . .

Price:
So here is the challenge. Optics are pretty much:
(lens quality + mechanicals) x brand name adustment x age of design adjustment x retailer profit adjustment = price

Obviously, we want to minimize profit and brand name markup.

My methods are simple:
1) Sign up for Natchez SS mailing list. . .they have regular good sales, refurbs and demo deals sent to your email.
2) Frequent the Cameraland NY website for demo deals and generally good prices and sales on optics of all types.
3) Sample List. . . SWFA's sample list has tons of optics that have been demo'd and are being resold at reduced pricing.
4) Check MidwayUSA.com. . . .They often have pretty low optics pricing, a coupon code (like $20 off $200) and free shipping.
5) Small retailers - I have had good luck with like a Brunoshooterssupply, etc. They are reputable.

Methods I generally fail with:
1) eBay - Too much risk of FakeoOptic making your Leupold and selling it there, even bouncing it out of a US warehouse making it seem like it is coming from the USA.
2) Buying used - Some good deals can be had, but a 5 yr old $500 optic could be worth $450 or $100. The state of the art in lens grind, glass and coatings changes fast. How will you know? Also, usually the lifetime warranty is gone.
3) Used or not Suggest Retailer on Trijicon or EOTech - These brands are really cracking down on this. That means you could buy a NIB from a non-approved retailer and have the reticle go bad(happens) and be stuck buying a new optic for a mfgr defect.
4) eBay NIB - Tends to sell for full value and warranty coverage is unclear.

Rings, Bases and Scope Covers:
-Save some money for these. . .Rings and bases define zero repeat-ability. When you drop your 10+lb rifle with 3+lb optic, you better have good rings and bases unless you plan to sight it in again beforee you shoot the Elk you are looking at!
- Frankly AR's pretty much require an AR style 1 pc mount. . .I like ADM, but there are cheaper and more expensive. If you are spending $100 on a BUIS, spend the extra for a repeatable return to zero mount. Never put a ring on a handguard. . .Asy yourself, how did I align that to the top rail?? Oh yea, SWAG method! It will bend/mark your scope likely.
- Scope caps - You need to keep your optics clear in the field and you don't want to be spitting on them and wiping with a likely dirty cloth. You just paid $100's for the coating you are now grinding on! Optics are cleaned with IPA and a soft/clean qTip and light pressure, or clean air.
-
So, this is definitely incomplete advice based on my limited experience. What is your experience/advise?

[rickyrick]

Good info on this stuff.

Most optic threads end up being top notch scope at highest price or nothing else will do.

I would really like it when people ask for a middle or lower price scope, they get that info... If a particular brand is crap, that's fine... But there are scopes decently priced that do work for their needs. They should get that info as well

I have had good luck buying weavers on eBay lately.... I'm going for the vintage rugged look.

[Nathan]

Yea, I see lots of folks pushing high end tactical scopes on everything, but frankly, a 2.5 lb 56mm 4-30x scope just isn't right on most rifles.

Most people just need a 14 oz scope that holds zero with a plex reticle and some detail about max point blank range methodology.

A few of us are ready to slide into BDC usage.

Most have no interest or capability to master a $3500 USO scope.

[Clark]

My USO scope story:
I bought a USO scope used off a forum.
It seems it was bought and sold many times in it's life.
I was having a hard time with it, until I realized that it has double pitch threads on the adjustable objective, and this scope was clocked 180 degrees off.
I called up USO and explained to the nice lady.
I said I can see a nut that opens the Nitrogen seal.
She screamed at me, "DON'T TOUCH THAT!............. send the scope here and we will fix it."

The guy who sold it to me wanted to be really white about it and pay for the shipping to USO, but I was going be magnanimous and pay for shipping, so we split the tiny shipping cost.

[jmr40]

I'd add eye relief as a factor to consider. Especially for quick snap type shooting often encountered when big game hunting. Scopes with short eye relief are usable on the bench or anywhere that you have time to set up a shot, but if it has to be done fast generous eye relief makes it much easier.

Scope quality has improved in the last 20 years a bunch. There are a lot of $200 scopes out there that are as good or better than scopes that sold for $400 twenty years ago. There are a lot of scopes selling between $300-$400 that are as much as I could imagine ever needing, and a few selling for $200-$300 that I'd not feel at all handicapped with.

I like a scope with dots on the reticle. Not hard at all to learn how to use and they don't hurt a thing if you choose not to. On the scopes I prefer, Redfield, Leupold or Burris they are $10-$50 more expensive. On a hunting rifle I wouldn't want to be twisting dials. But for a target shooter they are a little more precise at distance. There are good options for those in the $350 range.

There are some sub $200 scopes that are usable. But in my opinion many of the scopes starting at about $200 are so much better that it is wise to just pay a little more. I simply haven't seen anything selling under $100 that I'd feel good about.

You can pay more, and they are better scopes. But in my opinion once you get above $300-$400 the tiny bit of extra quality just isn't worth the cost. And I wouldn't argue with someone who felt $200 was enough.

[Clark]

My scopes average $400.
My favorite for deer is the Leupold VX3 3.5x10x40 CDS.

[Nathan]

I'd add eye relief as a factor to consider.

Thanks. Yes that is key. As well as eye box flexability....or how misaligned you can be and see through the scope.

[AllenJ]

...or how misaligned you can be and see through the scope.

That is huge in my opinion for a hunting scope.

I really like your write up, it gives people a good guide to buying the right scope. For normal hunting distances optical clarity difference between scopes costing a couple hundred dollars and those costing much, much more is to overstated. How much clarity do you need to see a deer at less than 200 yards?

One question I do have though, you said:

When you drop your 10+lb rifle with 3+lb optic, you better have good rings and bases unless you plan to sight it in again before you shoot the Elk you are looking at!

Do you actually know anyone who hunts with a 13 pound rifle

[sourdough1938]

I think the warranty should get a lot of attention. I ordered a scope through wally world which sounded like a good deal. When I got it home I opened the package took the scope out and found the warranty card. I read the warranty, put the scope and card back in the box and took it back to the store.
To use the warranty you had to pay shipping to the manufacturer and return plus they wanted $25 to examine the scope which would not be refunded even if it turned out to be their fault! The warranty only applied to the original owner.
There are plenty of good scopes in all price ranges that have good warranties so do not get one that the manufacturer is hesitant about repairing or replacing.

[Banger357]

A few months ago I had to bite my tongue when a guy insisted he needed a Nightforce 8-32x56 with some kind of fiddly ultra-fine reticle. To put on his AR-10 for hunting Muleys in WA. This guy could have used your list. I think his list was 1. Is it TACTICAL? 2. Will it impress people at the range? 3. Does it have a SUPER COOL name? 4. Have I seen it on COD? 5. Will it match my cerakote? 6. Will it convince people I have appendages of equine proportions?

I wish I had some countersnipers to sell him...

[Nathan]

I hunt with a heavy rifle. It is between 13 and 14 lbs, but when I need to shoot 400 yards, it is like shooting 100 yards with most guns! Weight is good, if you can carry it.

[Nathan]

Too bad he bought that Nightforce when the $800 Countersniper would have worked as well at the 50yd range!

[coyotewsm]

I have had good luck with Nikons. With that being said the last one I owned is now more than ten years old so quality could have changed. My most recent addition is a Sightron 3x12x42 mildot. I bought it to replace my 4.4x14 x40 Nikon Buckmaster. The difference in brightness and clarity is very noticeable. I still haven't been able to determine if the clicks are repeteable. One thing I do not like about it is where most scopes make an audible click when turning the nobs with my sightron you here nothing. I also bought a Simmons a couple years ago that was in the upper quality range for that brand it was still junk would not recoment it to anyone.

[Txhillbilly]

I've been shooting and hunting for over 4 decades,and in that time I've learned a few lessons about optics.
When I was young,I couldn't afford expensive scopes,so I bought what I could afford.Since I was hunting with my rifles most of the time,it really didn't hurt me performance wise if they just held zero.
In my twenties I started shooting at longer distances and learned very quickly that the optics that I had wouldn't work well,or for very long. That's when I started learning about the price of quality optics,and also after buying a few quality scopes I learned just what I was missing out on.

Once a shooter knows what quality optics are worth to them,they will always try to own them.
That's not saying that lower priced optics aren't quality.There are plenty of $200-$500 scopes that are excellent hunting scopes,but if the shooter wants to shoot long range or competition shooting,they better be prepared to pay the price that it cost for good optics.

[tobnpr]

Good stuff, but there was at least one very important criteria missed- one that I often jump in with when I see a "what scope should I buy" thread...

It's the total elevation adjustment available- and this seems to be one specification that's often lacking in a description and sometimes requires some digging to find out. Manufacturers whose scopes have very limited adjustment seem to make this almost impossible to find...

Longest range anticipated for shooting- and the chambering for the rifle needs to be known, along with the ballistics.

There are manyscopes on the market with absurdly limited range of elevation adjustment- as little as 30 m.o.a.- meaning at most 15 minutes of down adjustment is available.

Often, less than half is available simply due to the normal tolerances of fitting the base to the rifle. While down-angle bases help quite a bit, they often won't solve the problem on 600-1000 yard (and beyond) rifles if there's not at least 50 or 60 m.o.a. adjustment available on the scope mounted to it.

It's awfully frustrating to go to dial in a shot at 1000 yards, only to have the turret bottom out well short of what's required. Been there, done that... and learned the lesson.

[coyotewsm]

Txhillbilly. Since you said it I'm wondering what is the price of good optics?

[rickyrick]

I've determined that I will never be able to shoot at 1000 yards recreationally

[Nathan]

Txhillbilly. Since you said it I'm wondering what is the price of good optics?

IMO, it depends on what you ask of them. at $250-$350, a good basic low power optic can be had, but it will be a basic sight it in and forget it.

At $1500, Burris XTR II, Super Sniper and Steiner look pretty good with FFP, good glass, accurate turrets.

At $3000 - $4000, S&B and USO give you everything possible, but how much better can the glass be? Is there some shot that warrants this, or are they this much because tax payers buy 90% of them??

[Road_Clam]

When you belong to a gun club you get a great opportunity to try a ton of different rifle and scope combos. I've shot everything from a 22-250 up to a .50 cal using every optic from a Wal Mart tasco to a $3900 S&B . When it comes to premium optics you get what you pay for to a certain point with respect to clarity. I have 2 mid priced optics a Sightron SIII 8-32x56 and a Sightron SII 36x56 . Both are an awesome value for the money, and excellent clarity. I have a particular shooting buddy who prefers the top tier optics He has a 34mm 5-25x power S&B on a 338 Lapua mag and the quality of that optic is bar none , however we are talking a $3900 optic. Now is the glass better than my SIII ? Yes absolutely , but not at 3 times the cost better for the recreational shooter IMO.

[boondocker385]

Good post. My rifles sport a variety of Bushnell and leopolds. ..none are high end but they are all for hunting. All seem to have good low light performance and are accurate to deer distances. I don't shoot long range any more and in fact am doing more hunting with a pistol and bow.

[rebs]

I would like to ask what power scope you guys recommend for shooting from 50 to 300 yds at paper targets ?

[Nathan]

2-8x, 3-9x or a 10x would be great for most setups where versatility is key.

If you literally mean the best scope for 50 - 100yd paper punching off a benchrest, I'm thinking a Weaver 24x.

A new thread will get you more answers and more opportunity for you to clarify your question. . .like what caliber, rifle, expected group, experience level, competition or not, rest type, secondary uses. . .

[buckhorn_cortez]

How much clarity do you need to see a deer at less than 200 yards?

Depends if you're shooting at twilight light levels or full daylight. At low light levels you notice the contrast, light transmission, and exit pupil differences between a really good scope and an inexpensive one.

In backlit conditions you notice the multi-coating and lack of flare in a scope with good glass that is multi-coated on all surfaces. There is a reason expensive scopes cost more - they generally perform better under adverse lighting conditions.

Always buy the best you can afford. There are some real bargains in the 3x-9x scopes. When you get into the higher magnification ranges you really see the differences in the more expensive scopes.

I still use a 6.5 - 18x Leupold Vari-X III that I bought in 1984 on a .30-.338. I like the scope because it's fairly small, rugged, and the magnification range will let me use the gun to 600+ yards. It was about $425 in 1984 ($960 today).

A quality scope is a good shooting investment and should last a lifetime if carefully chosen to match the rifle.

[tobnpr]

I would like to ask what power scope you guys recommend for shooting from 50 to 300 yds at paper targets ?

I would say, a 3-9; or 4-12. Low end of 3-4x will be a bit high, but usable at 50 yards- especially given that it's paper punching and you're not trying to quickly acquire game in the crosshairs.
These are both very common, produced in large numbers, and therefore decent quality is available at a low cost.