Accurate, repeatable seating die?

[mshiermd]

I am getting tired of the variation in OAL with my cheap seating die. Need to move on and would like a little guidance in buying a seating die for .223. My
1in9" will be shooting 50-69gr bullets and the 1in7" will be shooting 75and 80gr missles. Advice appreciated.

[Wildalaska]

Redding.

WildantiverboseAlaska ™

[wncchester]

To make a realistic accessment of what you might need requires that we had some idea of where you are.

How much OAL variation is your "cheap" seater giving and what press are you using?

[jc121]

ok you want the best one get the redding S seating die. It comes with the micrometer adjustments and you can change the neck tension pills out to set your neck tension. they hold up really well. some of the others like the forester has a harder seating cone that is prone to cracking. most all hp shooters I know use the redding S die if you plan on loading any vld type for single seating or the 80's.
Now as far as oal you are going to get different oal's as all hpbt match bullets are messured off of the ogive so you get consitent settings. the oal does not matter unless you buy a marpat trimmer to cut them all down to the same length. Over kill for regular loading.

when loading rounds for mag length just check a few of them and find out what the longest ones are and set your die for that and the rest will fit in the mag.
now the advantage of the s die is the neck tension. to determine which one you need when you order do the following.
Take the diamiter of the bullet say 224 and add the thickness of the case neck which will run about 20 and add it twice for both sides of the neck and you will come out with like .264. then you subtrack 20 for neck tension so a tension pill like .245 should do the trick. with this you can play with the neck tensions as some brass and bullets will vary slightly and you can incress the pressure or lessen it the same way.

Good luck

[rwilson452]

One problem I have seen getting a constant OAL is not the problem of the die but the bullet. A friend was having difficulty getting the bullets set right. I went over and checked his rounds with a Sinclair Comparitor They were very close when checked this way but were not when measured from the tip. My conclusion was that the ogive of the bullets were not consistant. This was with rifle bullets not pistol stuff.

[Wildalaska]

If you use Lapua scenars, you will get consistent results

WildshillAlaska ™

[jc121]

yeah but I believe the lapua's only have a 70 in the match line so that hurts if he wants to use the vld type of round. some of the sponsered shooters from lapua and vitivouri powders use other brands of bullets for that reason. they are considering increasing their line.
what bullets are you using that the ogive is not the same? are you using like a stoney point bullet comparitor to messure the ogive on you loaded rounds. the only time I have seen it really bad is when the bullet is sticking in the die a little because of inproper neck tension so it never stays the same from round to round.

you must remember if you use bullets like hornady, sierra or some of the others you will get inconsitences in the same box. it is caused by them using several dies at one time and depending on the wear and such you can and will get small differences in the bullets. It should not matter to much for a regular loader.
you can try a test if you wish. go to the store and purchase a box of hornady, sierra and berger. You will see the bergers come from one die and are very consitent.

I could go into testing and the use of wilson dies and arbor presses but you do not need that info for regular loading.

if as you say the ogive was correct and the length was different that is that way on all non fmj or ballestic tip rifle rounds. it is the way it is formed in reverse. you can not change that . just buy quality to get better results or live with it. no other choice unless you trim and then you start getting different weights after that.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

My RCBS gave me problems when I first got started, because the set screw on my adjustment ring, kept slipping. Being a brass set screw against a steel dye body, it would loosen and let the ring slip a little every so often.

I found two ways of correcting this. First I took the set screw out and put a shotgun shot ( about a #6 shot) inside, and replaced the set screw. This lets the lead BB seat up against the steel dye body, and seems to work fine. The second way is to remove the ring from another dye, and place it on top of your set ring, thus creating a lock nut. The second way is a little more trouble to get just right, but I guarantee, once it is right, it will load every round exactly the same, provided your bullets are all the same.

[cdoc42]

I agree with rwilson452. Nosler bullets have been the most consistent for me regarding the ogive position. Old Hornady manufactured bullets had a lot of bullet-to-bullet variation, even from the same box (and lot number), but these have improved greatly. I measure all my seated bullets using a comparator.

[Unclenick]

Jc121,

I think you've got a couple of issues here that need segregating out. COL and ogive seating depth. You will have noticed that match bullets are formed so the base is at the bottom of the jacket cup. This is to keep the base maximally uniform by having it against the forming die. As Harry Pope said long ago, the base is what steers the bullet. You can mess a nose up considerably, even filing slants across it, and still not open groups up much. But put a slight angle on the base, and you might as well get a slingshot and hope for the best. Anyway, after forming the base and inserting the core, the bullet ogive and nose are formed. As a result, any tiny errors in total jacket cup length or the ogive profile formed accumulate at the tip of the bullet (the part that isn't as important as the base). That means the tips don't all match, and you can see several thousandths of difference in bullet lengths out of the same box as a result. If you want your COL to be more consistent, you will need to first trim the bullet meplats uniform with Tubb's tool or the Sinclair tool for it. Tubb also sells a bearing surface comparator, and in some brands that will be a telling point as well, as it affects the net length of the ogive when the bullets are of otherwise uniform length.

Next you have the ogives themselves not having exactly identical profiles, always. That difference will throw almost any seater off a little. Rule of thumb: +/- 0.005" of seating depth difference will not be detectable on the target with a highly precise load. +/- 0.010" difference is not detectable on the target for most loads. More can move you off a seating depth sweet spot and should be avoided.

Because the ogives vary slightly, the only way to accurately measure seating depth consistency for bullet throat engagement is at the ogive near the front of the bullet bearing surface, where it actually will engage the throat. To the best of my knowledge, only the Sinclair variant of the Stoney Point/Hornady type comparator gauge will do this. Their inserts are stainless rather than aluminum and are made using a chambering reamer, so they touch down on the bullet right where the throat will. They will fit in the Stoney Point style comparator body, but Sinclair makes its own. The difference is the Sinclair centers on the caliper jaw rather than being offset as the Stoney Point/Hornady is for their chamber headspace gauge. The centering makes it a little easier to tell when the head of your case is sitting straight on the caliper jaw. It also makes it usable with the Davidson comparator base, which can be used on the opposing jaw to ensure repeatable casehead positioning. These are sold by the casehead diameters they cover with steps, and either the #1 or the #2 will include the service rifle match rounds, as both have steps for .378", and .472" caseheads, covering .223, and .308/.30-06, among others. The Combination of Davidson's base and Sinclair's comparator body and nose inserts is the most accurate arrangement currently available for use with calipers, IMHO.

If you want the actual headspace-to-bullet ogive to determine how far your bullet will be off the lands when the firing pin pushes the case shoulder up against the chamber shoulder, you need to measure the case headspace (casehead to shoulder) and subtract that from your bullet ogive position reading. Again, you can use the Sinclair comparator body and put in the aluminum Stoney Point/Hornady inserts for case shoulder-to-casehead measuring. These should also be used in conjunction with the Davidson base if you go the Sinclair comparator body/nose tool route, so you compare apples to apples. It is consistency in the difference between the two measurements that you actually care about. The Redding Instant indicator makes this measurement in one shot, but I don't know if it picks up the ogive at the throat diameter as the Sinclair tool does?

The Redding Competition Seater Die is the best choice in my experience. I have also heard people extol the virtues of the slightly less expensive Forster version, but I've never tried it. The Redding eliminates bullet runout so effectively that after I bought my first one I never even bothered to try anyone else's. YMMV, but you'd have to do some awfully effective convincing to give me a reason to switch.

My links above are all to Sinclair for one-stop shopping, but you may want to check Bruno and others to compare prices on the non-Sinclair brand items? And we haven't even discussed bullet spinners or sonic void detectors. It all depends on how much trouble you are willing to take?

[jc121]

yes you are right I just tried not to go into to much detail.
I use all the stoney point stuff you mentioned.
I use the forester sizing die when I reload at home and then the redding S die for seating. when at the range for working up loads and when travelling like the nations at perry I will take the sinclair arbor with me. also have 3 of the wilson micrometer seating dies and a couple of the neck sizing dies plus all the other goodies to go with it. I only use lapua brass with bergers over them. when travelling or working up loads I will play with seating depths, powder charges, neck tensions to set the load for each rifle and so on. I will set up a wilson mirometer seating die for each rifle and adjust for throat wear as needed. with the wilson neck sizing dies I have for use in building loads and emergencys when away from home. when working up loads at the range I will use the arbor press with the neck dies. ( as you know the sinclair arbor will not work with full size case dies) It lets me do the final work to get it all just right.
I only use the marpat on my 6.5 and my 155 308 palma loads as I have not seen much to gain on my 75 or 80 vlds as of yet out of my gas guns.

[flashhole]

I have both the Forester Ultraseat and Redding Competition seat dies. They are both excellent, you will be happy with either one. A poor mans substitute is a Hornady Seat Die that also has a sliding/guiding shaft to keep the bullet straight but the tolerances aren't as tight. The Hornady can also be outfitted with the optional micrometer. It makes the die look cool but doesn't provide added functionality.

Yes, you need to use the ogive profile to attain repeatable seating depth. All other efforts are a waste of time.

[Unclenick]

jc121,

Note that the Redding S dies are sizing dies, not seaters. If you bought a die set with either a FL or neck-size-only S die (or both), I don't know if you will have got the Competition Seating Die or their standard seating die with it? I think they may have sets with either, but I'd have to look? The Competition Seater has a micrometer adjustment and a sleeve that sticks out the bottom that slides up into the die as you seat the bullet, as Flashhole described, while the standard sizer does not.

Agree that the meplat uniformers don't seem like a believable concept for a gas gun. After reading Harold Vaughn's experiments filing bullet noses to a slant and how little that does to groups, I am guessing most of the advantage is psychological. Teams have claimed better scores using them, but the psychological confidence is a huge factor, and teams get better with practice, and wind and weather and light are better some days than others. So, how do they tell if it's real? You'd need a double-blind study of at least 62 shooters of fairly equal ability, with 31 shooting with uniformed meplats and 31 without, while still other persons placed the rounds in their chambers so they couldn't see which they were getting? That many are needed just to meet the statistical rule of thumb for getting a normal distribution. But, they will let you make more uniform COL measurements.

[prime8]

Isnt it more important to have a consistant ogive, than oal? I guess my reasoning is the ogive contacts the rifling, and not the tip. Is this a correct understanding, or did I miss something? I understand that seating the bullet to deep, or not enough, will change the pressure. But as long as Im within acceptable oal variations , isnt ogive placement more important than oal?

[jc121]

Yeah your right I got that backwards. I wrote that at work with like 3 or 4 interuptions. LOL

[flashhole]

yes

[Martyn4802]

What Unclenick said.
Inaccuracy from slight variations in seating depth, and bullet point deformation is negligible. More importantly, bullet alignment and concentricity is where the attention should be placed. I use Wilson seaters, or custom made seaters equal to Wilson's, to control both alignment and concentricity.
I seriously doubt that the seater you are using in any way has an impact on OAL variations from round to round.

Martyn

[UGH]

I use Redding competition seating dies. They are about as accurate as you can get. But using a lesser quality bullet will vary in length and give you all kinds of variations. Like others are saying, Measure from the ogive to get an accurate seating depth.You should pick up the tool at the link below to do this.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...904&t=11082005

[Tim R]

Get the Forester. I use Reloader 15 for my 223 and I think about every bullet I load with enough powder is going to be a compressed load. The Redding while a good seating die will not stand up to repeated seating of compressed loads. This problem came up in the High Power shooting circles long ago. Reddings responce has been don't seat compressed loads.

I have a Redding Competition seating die for 308. Works fine.

I have the Forester Ultra seating die for 223. Works fine and is built like a tank. A precision tank at that.

I've won money and matches using both seating dies. The Forester is better built.

Get the Forester!