conversion

greensleep · April 15, 2011, 01:23 PM

I recently bought a conversion cylinder to convert my 44 caliber ball and cap reproduction Colt army pistols. The cylinder came with instructions to use only 'Cowboy" rated 45 long Colts cartridges in it. Will the cartridges fire safely from this pistol? I'm assuming the grain load of the powder is only 30 to 35 grains or less, right? Having ordered some ammo from a couple different vendors (Goex and Black Dawg) I'm wondering if only black powder cartridges should be used or can I use the "Cowboy" rated smokeless powder cartridges?
Any help out there?

Rachen · April 15, 2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

I recently bought a conversion cylinder to convert my 44 caliber ball and cap reproduction Colt army pistols. The cylinder came with instructions to use only 'Cowboy" rated 45 long Colts cartridges in it. Will the cartridges fire safely from this pistol? I'm assuming the grain load of the powder is only 30 to 35 grains or less, right? Having ordered some ammo from a couple different vendors (Goex and Black Dawg) I'm wondering if only black powder cartridges should be used or can I use the "Cowboy" rated smokeless powder cartridges?
Any help out there?

Howdy sir. The cylinders built by both Kirst and R&D are made from 4140 tool steel and both are proof-tested to SAAMI specifications to chamber low-pressure smokeless, or "cowboy action" loads that does not exceed 1,000 feet/per second velocity. If the box of ammunition says "Cowboy Action", it is safe to use in the conversion cylinder. Hornady, MagTech, Ultramax, Ten-X, and Black Hills all manufacture Cowboy Action ammunition.

Since your Colts are open-top by design, I will try to stay within the 650-800 FPS velocity margin to avoid damaging the recoil shield/frame.

DO NOT use any regular .45 LC defensive ammunition (*ahem, Taurus Judge *ahem), these are loaded close to .357 Magnum velocities and even though the cylinders might hold, the revolver will most likely be wrecked, and I am talking about a Remington/Beals closed frame design. With Colts, your barrel will likely fly off to the land of Oz and you will end up holding some kind of weird looking pepperbox. And these cartridges are usually loaded with jacketed ammo anyway, which is a no-no by itself in black powder barrels.

Me: I always load my own using brass, primers, black powder, and bullets that I purchase separately or make/cast myself. I use black powder only. Full-powered .45 LC ammunition loaded with black powder are very close in velocity and power to conventional cap-and-ball loads and I use these loads for hunting in my Remington Model 1858 Conversion and Model 1875 cartridge revolver. For Colts and other open-tops, I just suggest you load less to avoid stressing the frame.

ZVP · April 15, 2011, 03:15 PM

Out of curiousiry I bought a box of Winchester Cowboy action Bullets. I had been shooting light reloads based on the .38 Spl case. Gonna try them this weekend I hope!
When I went to Winchesters site I was suprised to discover that the CAS load was rated at 800fps with a M/E of 250fp with a 158gr RNFP.
The odd thing is that this is the highest ftlb .38 rating Winchester has though it is not the fastest velocity and Winchester has h=lighter, higher velocity bullets in this caliber but the ftlb of energy is lower on these loads by 15+ ftlbs and more.
Now I realize that maybe the SAMMI Pressure ratings with a lighter, faster bullet would likely be higher but I would have expected that the ME would be higher but they don't rate the ammo higher!
Chances are that the Pressure in the CAS load is well below maximum or they wouldn't sell it for this purpose, knowing that there are reproductions and conversions out there.
It just struck me odd that the actual ME of a 158gr Lead RNFPCAS load would rate higher than high preformance .38 Spl ammo!
The Winchester site is kinda weird and you have to click 3 places to get this information if you'd like to see it.
I always thought CAS ammo was sorta light loaded but I guess that one needs this sort of energy for the Knock-Overs...
I am sure that Open-Top Revolvers are safe with the Winchester CAS load otherwise the Winchester Legal Dept wouldn't let them market it. LOL!
ZVP

ClemBert · April 16, 2011, 09:51 AM

Here are the chrony results from a recent measurement of some .45 Colt loads I made up.

As you can see with 35 - 40 grains of Goex FFFg the average velocity is approaching 1000 fps. These would be considered safe as a "cowboy load" albeit at the upper limit. Keep in mind these were fired out of a Walker with a 9" barrel so your mileage may vary. I would not expect to get as high a velocity out of a 5.5" barreled 1858. I should note that the 35 grain load was using a standard "smokeless" bullet spec-ed out as RNFP, 0.452, and with a BHN of around 15. The crayon lube was removed and replaced with my smokey lube. The 40 grain load was using a 0.452 BigLube bullet that has a low BHN.

With a short barreled converted BP revolver I think it would be difficult to break the 1000 fps mark with Goex FFFg with any amount of the stuff you can cram into the cartridge. Likely, you'll be able to easily stuff 35 grains in there but with 40 grains you'd need a little assistance from some extra tools like I do.

greensleep · April 16, 2011, 01:22 PM

Thanks folks, especially you Rachen. I'll follow your advice for my first outing with the pistols and see how it goes.

noelf2 · April 17, 2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

The cylinders built by both Kirst and R&D are made from 4140 tool steel and both are proof-tested to SAAMI specifications to chamber low-pressure smokeless, or "cowboy action" loads that does not exceed 1,000 feet/per second velocity.

My R&D documentation says the cylinder is 4150 steel and the plate is 4140, not that it makes a whole lot of difference. Just sayin.

Hawg · April 17, 2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

My R&D documentation says the cylinder is 4150 steel and the plate is 4140, not that it makes a whole lot of difference. Just sayin.

They are, the frames aren't.

Bill Akins · April 17, 2011, 05:43 PM

Greensleep, you didn't mention if your frame is steel or brass. Unless you load your own conversion cylinder cartridges with a really light load, brass frames revolvers are not recommended for use with conversion cylinders. One reason why is on Colt types the ring on the inside of the recoil shield on a brass frame will dent if you use heavy loads. That will cause your cylinder to set back giving you too much barrel to cylinder gap and if real bad can cause your percussion caps to detonate against the recoil shield upon recoil giving you a chain fire, because the ring that held the caps away from the shield is dented/eroded. Naturally the steel frames are harder and won't dent the ring like that. Hopefully yours is steel and you won't have that concern. I just mention it because you didn't say if your frame is brass or steel. If you ever do get a brass frame Colt type that has a badly dented or eroded inner recoil shield ring, you can file the rest of the brass ring away and then make a steel ring to replace it as a fix. That's on Colt types. On 1858 Remington types, they don't have that inner recoil shield ring, they just have the flat face of the inner recoil shield. But if the Remy has a brass frame and you use too heavy of loads, the steel cylinder can dent the (ringless) flat face of the brass recoil shield. So unless you load your own cartridges to very light loads, using a conversion cylinder in a brass frame Colt or Remy style revolver is not recommended.

.

Newton24b · April 17, 2011, 10:48 PM

there is no standard for "cowboy" action ammuntion. it is just an association rule that determines the general velocity for a given bullet weight in a given cartrdidge.
look up cartridge reloading online. Found a copy of the older winchester loading manual online. its titled ww_load_data.pdf
the listed 38 special 'cowboy action load" calls for
4.1 grains of 231 powder iwth a 158 grain lead bullet to create a tested 900 fps velocity in a 6 and 1/8" barrel with 16,000 psi.

in the standard cartridge data for 38 special, it calls for a 158 grain lead bullet with a max charge of 4.5 grains of 231 at 830 fps and 15,800 psi chamber pressure from a 4 inch barrel.

that kind of kills "low pressure cowboy ammunition". also you need to realize that most competition shooters are shooting standard cap and ball loading data in cartridges. most rarely use 25-30 graisn of bp or substitute with a 2-220 grain conical, the standard colt army load.

the main reason they say use cowboy ammunition form the commercial vendors is that jacketed bullets are not safe in your percussion barrel. and no commercial cowboy ammo is loaded without solid lead only bullets.

April 15, 2011, 01:23 PM	#1
greensleep Junior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: N. Fl Posts: 11	conversion I recently bought a conversion cylinder to convert my 44 caliber ball and cap reproduction Colt army pistols. The cylinder came with instructions to use only 'Cowboy" rated 45 long Colts cartridges in it. Will the cartridges fire safely from this pistol? I'm assuming the grain load of the powder is only 30 to 35 grains or less, right? Having ordered some ammo from a couple different vendors (Goex and Black Dawg) I'm wondering if only black powder cartridges should be used or can I use the "Cowboy" rated smokeless powder cartridges? Any help out there?

April 15, 2011, 03:15 PM	#3
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Winchester .38 Cowboy ammo Out of curiousiry I bought a box of Winchester Cowboy action Bullets. I had been shooting light reloads based on the .38 Spl case. Gonna try them this weekend I hope! When I went to Winchesters site I was suprised to discover that the CAS load was rated at 800fps with a M/E of 250fp with a 158gr RNFP. The odd thing is that this is the highest ftlb .38 rating Winchester has though it is not the fastest velocity and Winchester has h=lighter, higher velocity bullets in this caliber but the ftlb of energy is lower on these loads by 15+ ftlbs and more. Now I realize that maybe the SAMMI Pressure ratings with a lighter, faster bullet would likely be higher but I would have expected that the ME would be higher but they don't rate the ammo higher! Chances are that the Pressure in the CAS load is well below maximum or they wouldn't sell it for this purpose, knowing that there are reproductions and conversions out there. It just struck me odd that the actual ME of a 158gr Lead RNFPCAS load would rate higher than high preformance .38 Spl ammo! The Winchester site is kinda weird and you have to click 3 places to get this information if you'd like to see it. I always thought CAS ammo was sorta light loaded but I guess that one needs this sort of energy for the Knock-Overs... I am sure that Open-Top Revolvers are safe with the Winchester CAS load otherwise the Winchester Legal Dept wouldn't let them market it. LOL! ZVP

April 16, 2011, 01:22 PM	#5
greensleep Junior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: N. Fl Posts: 11	thanks Thanks folks, especially you Rachen. I'll follow your advice for my first outing with the pistols and see how it goes.

April 17, 2011, 05:43 PM	#8
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	Greensleep, you didn't mention if your frame is steel or brass. Unless you load your own conversion cylinder cartridges with a really light load, brass frames revolvers are not recommended for use with conversion cylinders. One reason why is on Colt types the ring on the inside of the recoil shield on a brass frame will dent if you use heavy loads. That will cause your cylinder to set back giving you too much barrel to cylinder gap and if real bad can cause your percussion caps to detonate against the recoil shield upon recoil giving you a chain fire, because the ring that held the caps away from the shield is dented/eroded. Naturally the steel frames are harder and won't dent the ring like that. Hopefully yours is steel and you won't have that concern. I just mention it because you didn't say if your frame is brass or steel. If you ever do get a brass frame Colt type that has a badly dented or eroded inner recoil shield ring, you can file the rest of the brass ring away and then make a steel ring to replace it as a fix. That's on Colt types. On 1858 Remington types, they don't have that inner recoil shield ring, they just have the flat face of the inner recoil shield. But if the Remy has a brass frame and you use too heavy of loads, the steel cylinder can dent the (ringless) flat face of the brass recoil shield. So unless you load your own cartridges to very light loads, using a conversion cylinder in a brass frame Colt or Remy style revolver is not recommended. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target". Last edited by Bill Akins; April 17, 2011 at 05:52 PM.

April 17, 2011, 10:48 PM	#9
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	not again, there is no standard for "cowboy" action ammuntion. it is just an association rule that determines the general velocity for a given bullet weight in a given cartrdidge. look up cartridge reloading online. Found a copy of the older winchester loading manual online. its titled ww_load_data.pdf the listed 38 special 'cowboy action load" calls for 4.1 grains of 231 powder iwth a 158 grain lead bullet to create a tested 900 fps velocity in a 6 and 1/8" barrel with 16,000 psi. in the standard cartridge data for 38 special, it calls for a 158 grain lead bullet with a max charge of 4.5 grains of 231 at 830 fps and 15,800 psi chamber pressure from a 4 inch barrel. that kind of kills "low pressure cowboy ammunition". also you need to realize that most competition shooters are shooting standard cap and ball loading data in cartridges. most rarely use 25-30 graisn of bp or substitute with a 2-220 grain conical, the standard colt army load. the main reason they say use cowboy ammunition form the commercial vendors is that jacketed bullets are not safe in your percussion barrel. and no commercial cowboy ammo is loaded without solid lead only bullets. Last edited by Newton24b; April 17, 2011 at 10:57 PM.

April 16, 2011, 09:51 AM	#4
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Here are the chrony results from a recent measurement of some .45 Colt loads I made up. As you can see with 35 - 40 grains of Goex FFFg the average velocity is approaching 1000 fps. These would be considered safe as a "cowboy load" albeit at the upper limit. Keep in mind these were fired out of a Walker with a 9" barrel so your mileage may vary. I would not expect to get as high a velocity out of a 5.5" barreled 1858. I should note that the 35 grain load was using a standard "smokeless" bullet spec-ed out as RNFP, 0.452, and with a BHN of around 15. The crayon lube was removed and replaced with my smokey lube. The 40 grain load was using a 0.452 BigLube bullet that has a low BHN. With a short barreled converted BP revolver I think it would be difficult to break the 1000 fps mark with Goex FFFg with any amount of the stuff you can cram into the cartridge. Likely, you'll be able to easily stuff 35 grains in there but with 40 grains you'd need a little assistance from some extra tools like I do.