45acp Taper crimp dimension Question

William_IV · March 4, 2005, 12:05 PM

Hello,
I'm new to this site and new to Re-loading. My question is this
According to the Sierra Handbook The case head dimension is .473 for the 45 acp, When I set my taper crimp die to get a .473 result. The case is still loose; How do I know, Because when I Squeeze the wheel on my calipers the case walls move in toward the bullet. In addition the O.A.L. Decreases when I cycle dummy rounds into my chamber and eject them from my 1911.
I'm using a Sierra 185 Tournament master #8810 bullet with a dillon progressive press.
I've also read that if the Taper crimp puts any kind of noticeable depression on the bullet then to much crimp is being applied.

Anyone have any input?

Thanks,
William

Edward429451 · March 4, 2005, 12:21 PM

My 45's come out at .473 and hold the bullet secure. You must have bad brass, undersized bullets, or a junk caliper.

Ozzieman · March 4, 2005, 12:38 PM

I use a single stage press and RCBS dies and the OLD man that taught me everything I know showed me to bring the press all the way up and screw the die down untill it touches the case holder and then back off 1/2 turn. Its worked for me in the 10,000's of rounds that I have loaded.

Edward>>>>> Heinlein is super cool

William_IV · March 4, 2005, 01:18 PM

Bad Brass? i'm using new winchester brass, and trimming my cases, my bullets measure right, and my calipers are digimatic with certification papers. I use them at work and have never had any problems with them. could there be any thing else i'm over looking. Could it just be the particular target bullet
i'm using.

"Just wanna Shoot safe"

William

Edward429451 · March 4, 2005, 01:45 PM

It could very well be the bullet(s) themselves. Pretty light bullet (unfamilier with your specific bullet) does it have a short shank as comared with heavier bullets of the same caliber?

If you keep rechambering the same bullets that seat themselves deeper, is there a point in which they stop going deeper? What length do they stop at? COAL.

William_IV · March 4, 2005, 02:16 PM

coal =1.155 this is a full profile jacket, the bullet shank is .2370 long before
tapering off to a point. Bullet diameter is .4510. Should I just crimp them a littl tighter untill they don't move in the casing.

knightkrawler00 · March 4, 2005, 02:21 PM

I've always crimped cast bullets to .470". I add bullet diamater and case neck thickness together and subtract .001" to find the after crimp diameter on jacketed rounds. Remember, you have to add the case thickness twice. .473" case mouth diameter is maximum spec and can be under that a bit.

Since the bullet is being set back into the case upon chambering, your brass may not be getting sized down enough. Whether it is thin brass or an oversized sizing die, I don't know. Measure your sizing die inside diameter and give Dillon a call and see what that spec is.

Edward429451 · March 4, 2005, 02:32 PM

Yes I'd ry crimping a little tighter. .470 is probably as far as you want to go. What happens under that is the brass will slip past the headspace groove and jam, usually accompanied by a fail to fire from the light primer strike. (ask me how I know).

A safer test is to put a loaded round on a bathroom type scale and apply pressure up to 30 lbs or slightly above to see if it telescopes within the case, thats how I do it.

T- Bone · March 4, 2005, 04:41 PM

How much are you expanding the cases? I only expand enough to barely start the bullet into the case, and it takes very little crimp to snug up nicely.

dodgestdshift · March 6, 2005, 09:21 PM

After sizing take the bullet you are going to use and try to balance it on the case mouth. If it balances, there is something wrong with your sizing step. Actually sizing is what stops the bullet from moving into the case not the crimp.

When you bell the case, you should be barely able to see the belling, but the bullet should now balance on the case mouth. Seat the bullet. Set the crimp to just remove the belling, and the bullet should be held solidly.

Dgremlin · March 7, 2005, 04:02 AM

So basically, just a very light crimp is required? (I just loaded my first .45 ACP ammo and was going to ask about this.)

rbwillnj · March 7, 2005, 07:38 AM

.470 Thats the accepted standard in the bullseye community for cast bullets.

Nortonics · March 7, 2005, 07:43 AM

You wouldn't by chance be loading Remington Golden Saber lead into those .45's would you?

Sturm · March 7, 2005, 10:15 AM

William_IV, I set my bullet seating die to remove all the flare from the expander operation and measure diameter at the case mouth. I make a reduction with taper crimp based on the caliber. Recently another reloader ran this procedure on a forum, I glanced at and said OK, basically a formula for what I have been doing for years. After thinking about, I threw some variables into the calculater to see if it would cover different taper crimp values, different case wall thicknesses and guess what?
It works and it's easy to follow. Just requires that you have a dial caliper, which I'm guessing you do, so here goes:

Case Wall Thickness x 2 + Bullet Diameter - .002" (Subtractor for Amount of Crimp Desired)

Here's a particular .45 ACP example: CWT = .010" x 2 (.020") + BD .451" - .002 (ACD) = .469" your diameter after Taper Crimping.

.002 is usually a good amount of taper crimp and maybe too much for a .452 sized cast bullet, so when using larger diameter lead bullets you can adjust the ACD to .0015, or .001" and the formula works exactly the same except you are reducing ACD from .002" - .001". With 9mm, I usually hold Taper crimp at .0015" (15 Ten Thousands, or 1.5 thousandths) One reason this method is worthwile is because wall thickness can vary among different manufacturers of brass and this formula takes that into account!

MADISON · March 8, 2005, 09:33 AM

...can't give you the domentions of a Taper Crimp. I can tell you how I did/do it.
Remove the decapping stim from your sizing die. It can be steel or carbide. Then re-adjust the die to give you a good solid crimp. If that works for you buy yourself a Taper Crimp die or a used set of .45ACP dies.

virginia scout · March 9, 2005, 09:53 PM

I see in this thread Golden sabers are mentioned as a possible cause. Are you having problems with these bullets? If so what problems?

Nortonics · March 10, 2005, 06:46 PM

Just that Golden Sabers can give ya grief with their 'power band' technology if you don't understand it. Seems a lot of folks have problems taper crimping these things and getting it to hold the bullet tight enough, which can sometimes be attributed to trimming the cases too short. The combination of a shorter case length and trying to achieve a known OAL, along with how well your taper crimp die does its job, can all make for difficulty in achieving a decent grip.

I just saw that in William's original post that he was trimming his cases. I ran into this issue with Golden Sabers in the .380 ACP caliber, back when I was trying to defy known better judgment of not having to trim handgun brass. Drove me nuts, until I figured out that the trimming was the root cause of my problem.

Now I've got a whole set of handgun brass trimming jig's that sit rather lonely from non-use...

PDshooter · March 11, 2005, 09:09 AM

Buy yourself a "cartridge max gauge" from wilson, or midway. Then you can do spot CK on your loaded rds. That what I do.

WESHOOT2 · March 12, 2005, 08:04 AM

1) Size ALL cases (highly recommend undersized sizer from LEE / EGW for fired cases); case neck tension secures the bullet, NOT CRIMP.

2) Use minimal flare, sufficient to cause no bullet damage.

3) Crimp enough to remove flare, and ENSURE finished rds fit the chamber of actual gunbarrel.

Bullets that move in the case are bad.
None of this information is an opinion or guess; all tested fact.

brickeyee · March 12, 2005, 01:24 PM

a Wilson max gauge is very useful.
Another sugestion is to seat and crimp seperately. A taper crimp die is pretty cheap and avoids messing up die settings.

Harlie · March 12, 2005, 09:37 PM

Why are we trimming new brass .45 ACP cases? Have never, ever trimmed a .45 case yet and have loaded 100K+. Key is not to over expand case mouth and .470 for crimp. Enjoy your reloading, it's good therapy

dodgestdshift · March 13, 2005, 11:50 AM

Harlie:

Only had to trim cases for one bullet. For this bullet the case had to be trimmed to the minimum in the manual. If I didn't, the loaded cartridge would sometimes fail to feed. I stopped using that bullet, and don't trim now.

snuffy · March 14, 2005, 01:15 PM

1) Size ALL cases (highly recommend undersized sizer from LEE / EGW for fired cases); case neck tension secures the bullet, NOT CRIMP.

2) Use minimal flare, sufficient to cause no bullet damage.

3) Crimp enough to remove flare, and ENSURE finished rds fit the chamber of actual gunbarrel.

Bullets that move in the case are bad.
None of this information is an opinion or guess; all tested fact.

------------------------------

Weshoot2, you and another guy on the glock talk reloading forum must be twins! He and I had quite a discussion once about his insistance that you control bullet grip by the sizing/ expander die dimensions. My statement was, you prevent set back by a good taper crimp.

It's interesting that this thread came along, as I had just finished setting up my 650 to load .45 acp's. I got to wondering how the fit was on the shell/bullet. Using a dial caliper, the as sized ID is .448, the after expanding/flaring ID is .449 to .450. The west coast plated ,( now they're called accura bullets), 200 swc measure right at .452. Question is what SHOULD thoses measurements be? Is .002 enough to prevent the bullet from being seated deeper upon striking the feed ramp?

Oh and my crimps are right at .470, using the lee final crimp die.

It took three trys to get the measurments posted correctly. That's what I get for posting before the second cup of coffee, ARGGHH!

WESHOOT2 · March 17, 2005, 06:18 AM

I have spent a good number of years investigating setback; comes from insufficient case-neck tension.
Fact.

I can (as others) break the top of a lead bullet from crimp, but the piece in the case still may not be secure.........
Rats.

BigBoreKindaGuy · March 24, 2005, 12:33 AM

For a rolled crimp...bring the round up inside the crimping die until you just feel it begin to "flange" the case mouth. Take the round down out of the die and screw down a quarter turn. Run the round back up. You should feel the "thump" as the case is crimped. I then take the round out of the die and examine the crimp roll to make sure the crimp roll is slight and NOT a bowed out bevel at the mouth (overcrimped).

I have gotten into the habit of actually crimping...turning the case 1/3....crimping....turning the case 1/3 and crimping. I get a nice symmetric and even crimp on the round.

For taper crimps I adjust the die down until I get a small consistent taper just below the mouth edge with the case mouth edge diameter lessened just enough to see it begin to blend with the jacket of the bullet.

After 25 years of reloading you develop an "eyeballing" measure for knowing when the crimp is correct rather than having to rely on using calipers all the time.

March 4, 2005, 12:05 PM	#1
William_IV Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 76	45acp Taper crimp dimension Question Hello, I'm new to this site and new to Re-loading. My question is this According to the Sierra Handbook The case head dimension is .473 for the 45 acp, When I set my taper crimp die to get a .473 result. The case is still loose; How do I know, Because when I Squeeze the wheel on my calipers the case walls move in toward the bullet. In addition the O.A.L. Decreases when I cycle dummy rounds into my chamber and eject them from my 1911. I'm using a Sierra 185 Tournament master #8810 bullet with a dillon progressive press. I've also read that if the Taper crimp puts any kind of noticeable depression on the bullet then to much crimp is being applied. Anyone have any input? Thanks, William

March 4, 2005, 12:38 PM	#3
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I dont put that much effort into measuring taper crimp I use a single stage press and RCBS dies and the OLD man that taught me everything I know showed me to bring the press all the way up and screw the die down untill it touches the case holder and then back off 1/2 turn. Its worked for me in the 10,000's of rounds that I have loaded. Edward>>>>> Heinlein is super cool

March 4, 2005, 01:18 PM	#4
William_IV Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 76	What else? Bad Brass? i'm using new winchester brass, and trimming my cases, my bullets measure right, and my calipers are digimatic with certification papers. I use them at work and have never had any problems with them. could there be any thing else i'm over looking. Could it just be the particular target bullet i'm using. "Just wanna Shoot safe" William

March 4, 2005, 02:16 PM	#6
William_IV Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 76	C.o.a.l coal =1.155 this is a full profile jacket, the bullet shank is .2370 long before tapering off to a point. Bullet diameter is .4510. Should I just crimp them a littl tighter untill they don't move in the casing.

March 6, 2005, 09:21 PM	#10
dodgestdshift Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Marilla, N.Y. (outside Buffalo N.Y.) Posts: 113	After sizing take the bullet you are going to use and try to balance it on the case mouth. If it balances, there is something wrong with your sizing step. Actually sizing is what stops the bullet from moving into the case not the crimp. When you bell the case, you should be barely able to see the belling, but the bullet should now balance on the case mouth. Seat the bullet. Set the crimp to just remove the belling, and the bullet should be held solidly. __________________ The shortest distance between two politicians is through your wallet. Don N.

March 4, 2005, 12:21 PM	#2
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	My 45's come out at .473 and hold the bullet secure. You must have bad brass, undersized bullets, or a junk caliper.

March 4, 2005, 01:45 PM	#5
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	It could very well be the bullet(s) themselves. Pretty light bullet (unfamilier with your specific bullet) does it have a short shank as comared with heavier bullets of the same caliber? If you keep rechambering the same bullets that seat themselves deeper, is there a point in which they stop going deeper? What length do they stop at? COAL.

March 4, 2005, 02:21 PM	#7
knightkrawler00 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2004 Location: Prosser WA Posts: 103	I've always crimped cast bullets to .470". I add bullet diamater and case neck thickness together and subtract .001" to find the after crimp diameter on jacketed rounds. Remember, you have to add the case thickness twice. .473" case mouth diameter is maximum spec and can be under that a bit. Since the bullet is being set back into the case upon chambering, your brass may not be getting sized down enough. Whether it is thin brass or an oversized sizing die, I don't know. Measure your sizing die inside diameter and give Dillon a call and see what that spec is.

March 4, 2005, 02:32 PM	#8
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Yes I'd ry crimping a little tighter. .470 is probably as far as you want to go. What happens under that is the brass will slip past the headspace groove and jam, usually accompanied by a fail to fire from the light primer strike. (ask me how I know). A safer test is to put a loaded round on a bathroom type scale and apply pressure up to 30 lbs or slightly above to see if it telescopes within the case, thats how I do it.

March 4, 2005, 04:41 PM	#9
T- Bone Member Join Date: February 27, 2005 Posts: 25	How much are you expanding the cases? I only expand enough to barely start the bullet into the case, and it takes very little crimp to snug up nicely.

March 7, 2005, 04:02 AM	#11
Dgremlin Member Join Date: November 25, 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 34	So basically, just a very light crimp is required? (I just loaded my first .45 ACP ammo and was going to ask about this.)

March 7, 2005, 07:38 AM	#12
rbwillnj Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northwest NJ Posts: 38	.470 Thats the accepted standard in the bullseye community for cast bullets.

March 7, 2005, 07:43 AM	#13
Nortonics Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Location: Murderapolis Posts: 521	You wouldn't by chance be loading Remington Golden Saber lead into those .45's would you? __________________ Tom.

March 7, 2005, 10:15 AM	#14
Sturm Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 584	William_IV, I set my bullet seating die to remove all the flare from the expander operation and measure diameter at the case mouth. I make a reduction with taper crimp based on the caliber. Recently another reloader ran this procedure on a forum, I glanced at and said OK, basically a formula for what I have been doing for years. After thinking about, I threw some variables into the calculater to see if it would cover different taper crimp values, different case wall thicknesses and guess what? It works and it's easy to follow. Just requires that you have a dial caliper, which I'm guessing you do, so here goes: Case Wall Thickness x 2 + Bullet Diameter - .002" (Subtractor for Amount of Crimp Desired) Here's a particular .45 ACP example: CWT = .010" x 2 (.020") + BD .451" - .002 (ACD) = .469" your diameter after Taper Crimping. .002 is usually a good amount of taper crimp and maybe too much for a .452 sized cast bullet, so when using larger diameter lead bullets you can adjust the ACD to .0015, or .001" and the formula works exactly the same except you are reducing ACD from .002" - .001". With 9mm, I usually hold Taper crimp at .0015" (15 Ten Thousands, or 1.5 thousandths) One reason this method is worthwile is because wall thickness can vary among different manufacturers of brass and this formula takes that into account!

March 8, 2005, 09:33 AM	#15
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	45acp Taper crimp dimension Question ...can't give you the domentions of a Taper Crimp. I can tell you how I did/do it. Remove the decapping stim from your sizing die. It can be steel or carbide. Then re-adjust the die to give you a good solid crimp. If that works for you buy yourself a Taper Crimp die or a used set of .45ACP dies.

March 9, 2005, 09:53 PM	#16
virginia scout Member Join Date: March 9, 2005 Posts: 22	Why the question on the golden sabers. I see in this thread Golden sabers are mentioned as a possible cause. Are you having problems with these bullets? If so what problems?

March 10, 2005, 06:46 PM	#17
Nortonics Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Location: Murderapolis Posts: 521	Just that Golden Sabers can give ya grief with their 'power band' technology if you don't understand it. Seems a lot of folks have problems taper crimping these things and getting it to hold the bullet tight enough, which can sometimes be attributed to trimming the cases too short. The combination of a shorter case length and trying to achieve a known OAL, along with how well your taper crimp die does its job, can all make for difficulty in achieving a decent grip. I just saw that in William's original post that he was trimming his cases. I ran into this issue with Golden Sabers in the .380 ACP caliber, back when I was trying to defy known better judgment of not having to trim handgun brass. Drove me nuts, until I figured out that the trimming was the root cause of my problem. Now I've got a whole set of handgun brass trimming jig's that sit rather lonely from non-use... __________________ Tom.

March 11, 2005, 09:09 AM	#18
PDshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 607	Buy yourself a "cartridge max gauge" from wilson, or midway. Then you can do spot CK on your loaded rds. That what I do.

March 12, 2005, 08:04 AM	#19
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	or 1) Size ALL cases (highly recommend undersized sizer from LEE / EGW for fired cases); case neck tension secures the bullet, NOT CRIMP. 2) Use minimal flare, sufficient to cause no bullet damage. 3) Crimp enough to remove flare, and ENSURE finished rds fit the chamber of actual gunbarrel. Bullets that move in the case are bad. None of this information is an opinion or guess; all tested fact. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 12, 2005, 01:24 PM	#20
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	a Wilson max gauge is very useful. Another sugestion is to seat and crimp seperately. A taper crimp die is pretty cheap and avoids messing up die settings.

March 12, 2005, 09:37 PM	#21
Harlie Member Join Date: March 1, 2005 Posts: 41	One question Why are we trimming new brass .45 ACP cases? Have never, ever trimmed a .45 case yet and have loaded 100K+. Key is not to over expand case mouth and .470 for crimp. Enjoy your reloading, it's good therapy

March 13, 2005, 11:50 AM	#22
dodgestdshift Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Marilla, N.Y. (outside Buffalo N.Y.) Posts: 113	Harlie: Only had to trim cases for one bullet. For this bullet the case had to be trimmed to the minimum in the manual. If I didn't, the loaded cartridge would sometimes fail to feed. I stopped using that bullet, and don't trim now. __________________ The shortest distance between two politicians is through your wallet. Don N.

March 14, 2005, 01:15 PM	#23
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	how much? 1) Size ALL cases (highly recommend undersized sizer from LEE / EGW for fired cases); case neck tension secures the bullet, NOT CRIMP. 2) Use minimal flare, sufficient to cause no bullet damage. 3) Crimp enough to remove flare, and ENSURE finished rds fit the chamber of actual gunbarrel. Bullets that move in the case are bad. None of this information is an opinion or guess; all tested fact. ------------------------------ Weshoot2, you and another guy on the glock talk reloading forum must be twins! He and I had quite a discussion once about his insistance that you control bullet grip by the sizing/ expander die dimensions. My statement was, you prevent set back by a good taper crimp. It's interesting that this thread came along, as I had just finished setting up my 650 to load .45 acp's. I got to wondering how the fit was on the shell/bullet. Using a dial caliper, the as sized ID is .448, the after expanding/flaring ID is .449 to .450. The west coast plated ,( now they're called accura bullets), 200 swc measure right at .452. Question is what SHOULD thoses measurements be? Is .002 enough to prevent the bullet from being seated deeper upon striking the feed ramp? Oh and my crimps are right at .470, using the lee final crimp die. It took three trys to get the measurments posted correctly. That's what I get for posting before the second cup of coffee, ARGGHH! __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly? Last edited by snuffy; March 14, 2005 at 04:43 PM.

March 17, 2005, 06:18 AM	#24
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	cloning is real I have spent a good number of years investigating setback; comes from insufficient case-neck tension. Fact. I can (as others) break the top of a lead bullet from crimp, but the piece in the case still may not be secure......... Rats. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 24, 2005, 12:33 AM	#25
BigBoreKindaGuy Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Posts: 175	For a rolled crimp...bring the round up inside the crimping die until you just feel it begin to "flange" the case mouth. Take the round down out of the die and screw down a quarter turn. Run the round back up. You should feel the "thump" as the case is crimped. I then take the round out of the die and examine the crimp roll to make sure the crimp roll is slight and NOT a bowed out bevel at the mouth (overcrimped). I have gotten into the habit of actually crimping...turning the case 1/3....crimping....turning the case 1/3 and crimping. I get a nice symmetric and even crimp on the round. For taper crimps I adjust the die down until I get a small consistent taper just below the mouth edge with the case mouth edge diameter lessened just enough to see it begin to blend with the jacket of the bullet. After 25 years of reloading you develop an "eyeballing" measure for knowing when the crimp is correct rather than having to rely on using calipers all the time.