Who sets transfer fees?

[FITASC]

Again, in Iowa the cost of the FFL transfer is included in the purchase price.

When the FFL buys the gun on spec - NOT when he buys the gun in lieu of your buddy who seems to be not smart enough to work a computer.

[FrankenMauser]

Okay, my buddy is not very savvy on computers, and found a firearm that he has been looking for. Not only is he not confident on computers, he has never placed a bid on EBay. He mentioned this to an FFL dealer that he has done some work for and the dealer offered to help him out by bidding on it. It was the dealer who bid and paid for the item and shipping. It was the dealers purchase and kept it to "sell' it to my buddy. It was the dealers firearm till he sold it to my buddy for all actual expenses. That was fine except he also charged him $25.00 for the transfer and that was not expected.

The transfer fee is absolutely expected, and par for the course.

FFLs don't buy and sell firearms to be good neighbors. They do it for profit.
Without the transfer fee, he would have sunk time into the item, with no return. (Literally costing him money to buy and resell the handgun, rather than at least paying for the trouble, or even making a very small profit.)

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Pahoo

Okay, my buddy is not very savvy on computers, and found a firearm that he has been looking for. Not only is he not confident on computers, he has never placed a bid on EBay. He mentioned this to an FFL dealer that he has done some work for and the dealer offered to help him out by bidding on it. It was the dealer who bid and paid for the item and shipping. It was the dealers purchase and kept it to "sell' it to my buddy. It was the dealers firearm till he sold it to my buddy for all actual expenses. That was fine except he also charged him $25.00 for the transfer and that was not expected. .....

Again, in Iowa the cost of the FFL transfer is included in the purchase price.

It's my buddy's complaint and I agree .....

And I think the rest of the universe disagrees.

When an FFL buys a firearm from a distributor or takes it in as a trade-in, he resells it for a profit that's enough to compensate him for the amount of time he expends in doing the paperwork. When an FFL works a Gunbroker auction on behalf of a customer and then sells the gun to the customer with NO markup on the gun or the shipping -- where's he supposed to make his living if you don't even want him to charge a minimal $20 for a transfer fee?

IMHO you (and your friend) are incredibly unrealistic in your expectations. I just went through the same transaction with an FFL in the next town to where I live. I have a Gunbroker account and I could have bid it myself but, for reasons which don't concern anyone here, on this occasion I chose not to. I watched the auction, I texted my FFL 20 minutes before closing, he put in the winning bid, and I sat back to wait until he notified me that it had arrived.

So not only did he place the bid for me, he also dipped into his own pocket to make the purchase. He used his fax machine to send his FFL to the FFL on the selling end. When the gun arrived, he had to enter it into his bound book -- just the same as he would if he had bought a new gun from a distributor.

For all that he charged me a transfer fee of $30 -- which was less than his usual charge, but he gave me a break because I also gave him a possibly nice pistol to sell on consignment. I have no complaint about paying the transfer fee. I expected to pay it -- in fact, I expected it to be $50, which is the going rate around these parts. I honestly don't see how you or your friend could possibly expect the FFL to NOT charge a transfer fee. I also don't see how you can possibly not understand the difference between this transfer, where there was NO profit on the gun, and a gun he has in stock that has a profit margin of between 30 and 50 percent.

[ibfestus]

You should have to pay the FFL for his time and effort. You can go to a retail store (Cabela's etc.) and you will still pay for the time and effort to make the call, and check the 4473.

My brother in law was a assistant manager at a Wal-Mart Superstore. He had worked for them for a mere 34 years. He signed off on a 4473 that had a mistake/error that he didn't catch. He was fired on the spot...

So that guy that takes your 4473 is literally putting his lively hood at risk. $20 is an absolute bargain.

[Scorch]

FFLs get to charge what they think is a reasonable fee for their time, knowledge, and the use of their professional license. How much do you charge for your time/knowledge/skills? Many FFL holders are not part of a larger "corporate entity", and as such they are not paid by the hour. They make their money by selling guns, they buy at wholesale and mark the item up. If there is no mark-up, as when doing a transfer, there is no incentive for the FFL holder to do the work and use his skill and knowledge to transfer a firearm to you, so he charges what he might have made in profit. Getting paid for doing work is required by law, otherwise it is slavery. So, you want the gun, you pay what that person thinks his time and effort are worth. You want cheaper? Go to the cut-rate guys who think $25 for the job is enough. Or the $10 guy. But if you want to be able to buy gun supplies in your area, I suggest you support the local FFLs.

$20.00 in my mind is fair

It's not your FFL, you don't get to determine what the fair price is.

[JoeSixpack]

It's not your FFL, you don't get to determine what the fair price is.

I dunno.. Im gonna back them up on this.. 20 is fair.
And yeah he can decide whats fair.. with his wallet, It's not a one way street.

Let me tell you it takes very little time to actually earn that 20 bucks.
I've overheard phone calls to NICS line.. the conversation is like 3mins.. round it up to 5 to be generious.

Lets say it took me another 5 mins to fill out the form.

That's 10mins of work plus what ever time they need to make their bound book entries.

How many people here are making 60-80 dollars an hour?
Granted I don't know any FFL's doing transfers round the clock like that but that's what it breaks down to.

As far as supporting LGS? Every single actual gun shop that I've checked into for transfers are at least 35, and I love how some charge different prices based on if it's a long gun or hand gun.

Let's also address the fact that if

1. The LGS had the gun I wanted
and
2. At a price I was willing to pay I wouldn't be shipping it in from online in the first place.

The guy I goto works out of his kitchen, It's not as nice as a shop setting but so what? Cut rate? not really.. I just need a FFL they're all equal in the eye's of the law which is all im trying to satisfy here.

Im not quite sure which direction the conversation has taken here.
I absolutely believe FFL's deserve to make a few bucks for their time on a transfer.

The FFL who actually bought the gun im assuming it was gun broker and not ebay as previously mentioned, went well above and beyond!

LGS where you're buying from THEM deserve NOTHING for their time doing paper work, the profit should already be baked into the price of the gun.

[Gunplummer]

I read through the whole mess. I am not amazed at all. It is why I quit doing outside gun work years ago. My question is: Why don't you just get an FFL if it is all gravy? Some of you look at a gun shop like it is an hourly wage job without overhead. Ever look at the hourly rate sign in a car repair garage? I still buy and sell a lot of guns and some of the FFL holders my Dealer has to work with are morons. There is simply no other way to describe them. He (Dealer) has had to send a copy of his FFL by email, FAX, and finally giving up, by regular mail. One guy even sent the rifle to ME. Stop whining and get an FFL. Wonder how long you will charge $20?

[JoeSixpack]

What is "outside gun work"? are you a FFL and you mean you no longer do transfers?

I thought about getting a FFL just for side cash.
I would probably just do transfers and maybe sell online thru gun broker or something.
Main problem is I have cats, some people are allergic so I have no good place for someone to come do paper work.

You're right B&M has overhead.. unfortunately the price still has to be something someone can live with.

I can't pay you 50 bucks just cause you got an electric bill and rent to pay.. no B&M shop should be depending on transfers to keep the lights on.

I'd ask you how much profit are yo making on a gun? do you think you should some reason make even more or equal on a transfer where you have zero money invested in the value of the gun?


Perhaps you can answer a question for me, If you have a FFL how does private collection vs inventory work?
Also I suppose this means the complete elimination of private sales..

EX: I could not privately sale a gun to my uncle if I have a FFL I would assume.. even if that gun was in my private collection.. if such a thing still exists once you have a FFL.

I mean if I was to order a gun using my FFL for my own collection how does such a thing even work.

[FITASC]

I mean if I was to order a gun using my FFL for my own collection how does such a thing even work.

That's what a lot of us kitchen table FFLs were doing back in the 70s and 80s; bringing a gun into "inventory for display purposes"

[Gunplummer]

Outside gun work is repairing guns for other people. You have to have an FFL to do that. The only way you can legally do that with out an FFL is if the owner is standing there while you repair his gun. You cannot "Hold" guns for people. All repair guns in the racks have to be tagged. The whole system is kind of vague. I would think that what ever trade name you pick (Joe's guns) is inventory, and private transfers go in your name. Could be wrong there.

[Aguila Blanca]

FFLs I know keep their personal firearms at home, guns they buy and stock for resale are at the shops and in the shop's bound book. Doesn't matter if the resale guns are new or used, or from a collection they bought. The only exception is the guy who has a range and shop on the same premises. The rental guns are his personal guns, not in the bound book for the FFL business.

It's one thing to discuss how much of a fee is reasonable for doing a transfer, but to argue that an FFL should be expected to buy a gun through an auction, handle the exchange of FFLs, put out HIS money to have the gun shipped to him, enter it into his bound book, and then transfer it to a customer -- all for NO fee -- is just plain silly.

[44 AMP]

I'm not an FFL holder, so I don't know the current cost of the license, BUT I do remember the big screams that were heard when the CLINTON administration raised the FFL fee from $30 to $300. And I believe renewal are full cost.

The intent (though never officially stated) was to make dealing so expensive that the little guys would give it up. And, it worked. Somewhere between a third and half of FFL dealers disappeared within a couple years. The "kitchen table" guys, mostly.

Interestingly enough, my state has a law limiting the maximum FFL dealers can charge for background checks. It's part of the unworkable and unenforceable background check law passed by initiative a couple years ago. The law is so poorly written State agencies (including the state police) refused to enforce it, without specific direction on how to do so. Such direction is still awaiting..

[FITASC]

I'm not an FFL holder, so I don't know the current cost of the license, BUT I do remember the big screams that were heard when the CLINTON administration raised the FFL fee from $30 to $300. And I believe renewal are full cost.

And I was one of those who gave it up. Way back when we also had to log ammo, even .22lr............then they stopped that ridiculous idea.

[dogtown tom]

JoeSixpack .........Let me tell you it takes very little time to actually earn that 20 bucks.
I've overheard phone calls to NICS line.. the conversation is like 3mins.. round it up to 5 to be generious.

Lets say it took me another 5 mins to fill out the form.

That's 10mins of work plus what ever time they need to make their bound book entries.

You have given me my laugh of the day.
Do you really think that the FFL transfer fee only cover the time it takes you to fill out the 4473 and for the dealer to call in the NICS check?

Are you really that ignorant of what a dealer does?

1.When a customer calls or emails me to begin a transfer.....I take the call or answer his email.
2. I email the seller a copy of my FFL with shipping instructions.
3. When the gun arrives I unpack it, dispose of the box, bubble wrap and packing peanuts.
4. I log the manufacturer, model, serial#, type and caliber.
5. I log the name and address of the shipper (and often I have to do detective work to find out who actually shipped the gun and who is the transferee)
6. I notify the customer that his firearm has arrived.

ALL OF THAT OCCURS BEFORE THE CUSTOMER EVER SETS FOOT IN MY PREMISES!!!!!!!

"Ten minutes of work"????? Unbelievable.

How many people here are making 60-80 dollars an hour?

How many people here are better at math than you?
How many people here understand that there are more expenses to running a business than the face time with the customer?
How many people here get free alarm systems, free safes, free electricity, free office supplies, free rent and free insurance on firearms? That stuff ain't free and you should know that.

Granted I don't know any FFL's doing transfers round the clock like that but that's what it breaks down to.

Granted, you don't really know jack squat about anything to do with FFL transfers.

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP I'm not an FFL holder, so I don't know the current cost of the license, BUT I do remember the big screams that were heard when the CLINTON administration raised the FFL fee from $30 to $300. And I believe renewal are full cost.

The current fee for an 01FFL (Dealer) is $200 for the application and first three years. Each three year renewal after that is $90. Not exactly a deal breaker for someone who is genuinely engaged in the business of dealing in firearms.

The intent (though never officially stated) was to make dealing so expensive that the little guys would give it up. And, it worked. Somewhere between a third and half of FFL dealers disappeared within a couple years. The "kitchen table" guys, mostly.

Not exactly. Those that lost their FFL back then weren't driven out of the business due to the fee, but because they shouldn't have been issued an FFL in the first place. They didn't possess a business license or sales tax permit and many were operating their business contrary to their state and local laws. ATF didn't revoke those licenses, those dealers chose to not renew rather than abide by their state and local laws. Many weren't zoned for a home based business.

When a dealer signs the Form 7 (application) they certify under penalty of law that they intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, that they would abide by all state and local laws and were not using the FFL for enhancing their personal collections.

[Gunplummer]

Yeah!

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue711

Tennessee Arms are having their empty AR lowers on sale for $35 each w/ free shipping. I didn't want to pass up the sale, so I bought 9. The shop I sent them too is charging me $20 per lower. If they were fully assembled guns, I'd understand. But damn near $200 for a single box of parts (I know each part is the technical gun, but they're still just parts) is BS.

You still transferred 9 firearms. It doesn't matter if you feel they're just "parts", the FFL still has to treat each one as a firearm because that's what it is. And $20 per firearm is a reasonable price in most areas, and a darn good price in some.

Originally Posted by TrueBlue711

The purpose I made this post is I feel pretty cheated from a recent transfer and wanted to double check my facts before blasting them on Google/Yelp.

Why in the world are you going to "blast" them on Google or Yelp? You solicited their services and now you're upset that they charged you for those services? Are you being serious here? If you're surprised by the pricing then it's your own fault for not contacting them before you had your firearms shipped there.

Complaints like this one is why Yelp is so terrible. I've seen people leave bad Yelp reviews for the most ridiculous things, like getting upset because they asked for a gun that doesn't exist and the store didn't have it. Guess what: If you feel a shop's transfer fee is too high, don't transfer guns though them. It's that easy.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Pahoo

Okay, my buddy is not very savvy on computers, and found a firearm that he has been looking for. Not only is he not confident on computers, he has never placed a bid on EBay. He mentioned this to an FFL dealer that he has done some work for and the dealer offered to help him out by bidding on it. It was the dealer who bid and paid for the item and shipping. It was the dealers purchase and kept it to "sell' it to my buddy. It was the dealers firearm till he sold it to my buddy for all actual expenses. That was fine except he also charged him $25.00 for the transfer and that was not expected. .....

Again, in Iowa the cost of the FFL transfer is included in the purchase price.

It's my buddy's complaint and I agree .....

Let me get this straight: The dealer bought a gun on Gunbroker, and you and your buddy expect him to sell it for the exact amount he paid for it and nothing more? You honestly expect the dealer to work for free? Should every shop sell all their products for the exact amount they paid for them? You expect shops to never make any kind of profit? Either I'm missing something here or you and your buddy don't understand how retail works...

[JoeSixpack]

1.When a customer calls or emails me to begin a transfer.....I take the call or answer his email.

I just tell my FFL what's headed there way, I don't even need a reply.
"Hey heads up colt 1911 headed your way from blah blah"
Ok let me bump up your work time by 1min for reading the email or taking a call.. not that it really matters if you do or not as the paper work that comes with the gun will have my contact info on it anyway.

My current guy never returns emails.. I don't even care.. I just call them up once I see it's delivered and be like.. hey you logged blah blah yet.. ok so when's a good time to come over? now? ok see ya in 20mins *click*

2. I email the seller a copy of my FFL with shipping instructions.

Ok I'll give this one to you.. you'll have to email a copy of your license assuming you've never had a shipment from that FFL before..
Usually only needs to be done once per license cycle as most dealers online keep them on file.. CDNN needed neither of the last 2 FFL's I used before my current guy.. already on file.. ok bump it up to another 2 min... after all I'd hope you'd have a canned email ready for this situation or I'll give you 5mins credit if you're the type of person that does it by scratch every time and writes out detailed instructions via google maps on how to get to their location.

3. When the gun arrives I unpack it, dispose of the box, bubble wrap and packing peanuts.

Well that is a might difficult job.. you might have to use a box cutter or something so I'll throw in some hazard pay.
Ok another 3mins.

P.S if you have difficulty with the disposal of such materials then make the customer haul it off.. my old FFL did.. I have no problem with that.
Just more protection for my gun while I transport it home.

4. I log the manufacturer, model, serial#, type and caliber.

Ya I already mentioned this so no credit for this one.

5. I log the name and address of the shipper (and often I have to do detective work to find out who actually shipped the gun and who is the transferee)

Ok now this one Im a bit fuzzy on.. I thought all guns shipped between FFL's had to have some paper work accompanying it, I almost wanna say they need to provide their own FFL license info in return.. but I don't know for sure to make an argument here.

I'll just say it does not "seem" right to me that you can ship a gun to a FFL with absolutely no documentation as to who it's for or who sent it.. anyone could come in claiming they have a gun coming.. I've never been asked to show a invoice of my own for proof of payment.

I dunno can you even ship a gun without a return address at the very least?
either way Im not touching this one.

6. I notify the customer that his firearm has arrived.

Very kind of you sir, but I have a tracking number, I already know when it's delivered.

ALL OF THAT OCCURS BEFORE THE CUSTOMER EVER SETS FOOT IN MY PREMISES!!!!!!!

"Ten minutes of work"????? Unbelievable.

I said 10 + what ever time you need with your bound book..
60-80 breaks down to 15-20 mins per transfer (@$20 which is the most im willing to pay for a transfer)
I didn't think I had to detail every little thing like opening a box, finding a pen, turning on the lights, food and drink while you wait on the delivery, signing for the delivery.. blah blah blah.

seriously how long does it take you to complete a transfer?? an hour?
No no let's be fair you tell me how long it takes you.. would 30mins be fair? I mean if we add up all the little itty bitty parts in the process would 30mins be about right?

ok so I guess that means you could do 2 transfers in 1 hour.. that's 40 bucks, hardly bad money for what is just procedural tasks with no investment in the product you're transferring.
Most of what you listed that I callously left out can be done when the shop is empty anyway.

How many people here are better at math than you?

I dunno but it sounds worthy of another thread and a poll to find out.. you're just the person to get to the bottom of this matter I can see that.

How many people here understand that there are more expenses to running a business than the face time with the customer?

How many people here get free alarm systems, free safes, free electricity, free office supplies, free rent and free insurance on firearms? That stuff ain't free and you should know that.

NO B&M Gun shop should be depending on transfers to keep the lights on, if you are then you're SERIOUSLY in trouble!

Granted, you don't really know jack squat about anything to do with FFL transfers.

How's that? because I left out such trivial things as emailing your license to the sending FFL if it's not already on file? opening and disposing of a shipping box?
I guess my mind can not grasp the complexities of such things.

[44 AMP]

FFLs get to charge what they think is a reasonable fee for their time, knowledge, and the use of their professional license. How much do you charge for your time/knowledge/skills?

Here's the main point, how much do you charge for what you do??? NOT just what the customer SEES you do??

You only SEE the FFL do a little work, and you think its only worth $20 and you're getting ripped off if he charges more. Maybe you know jacksquat about what he does that you don't see, maybe you don't, it DOES NOT MATTER. His rate is his rate. Not happy? go elsewhere and see if you can get a better deal.

Had any dealings with a doctor, a lawyer, a mechanic or other professional people in the recent century???

A doctor can charge you what ever they want for an office visit that takes 10 minutes of HIS time (and 50 of yours).

A lawyer can charge you hundreds of dollars for a letter that takes him 5 minutes to dictate.

I went to a small engine repair shop the other day, to see about some work on a lawnmower. SHOP RATE = $60/hr 1hr min.

IF you feel you're being overcharged, remember the story about the guy with the fantastic widget machine.

Totally automated factory, had a fantastic machine that made the world's best widgets. One day, it stops running. He calls the repairman.

Repairman arrives, looks things over, pushes one button, the machine starts running again. Yay! Owner is happy, until the repairman hands him the bill for $1000.

The owner flips out, yells, stomps around, throws a hissy fit $1000 for pushing a button! This is barking stupid, I'm not paying that!!!

Ok, the repairman says. You're right, $1000 for pushing a button is too much. Here's my revised bill.

Hands new bill to the owner. It says:

Pushing one button: $1
KNOWING WHAT BUTTON TO PUSH: $999

Have a nice day!

Or, if you prefer, just go by the old saying "gunfighters don't charge by the bullet".

[Gunplummer]

One cannot be an idiot and have an FFL. Did you miss the part where I said the selling DEALER sent the rifle to ME? I have corrected Dealers more than once that had written down a model number instead of the serial number. Same thing with a mismatched bolt number instead of the serial number. Many of the guns on online auctions are sold by people with no FFL. The Dealer I use will accept them, but wants a copy of the sellers drivers license. I email this to the seller, but the Dealer still gets one now and then with nothing at all attached. It is not as easy as it sounds.

[UncleEd]

It seems to me that under the 2nd Amendment it is our right to have FFLs who do our bidding and keep their tiny greedy hands in their pockets. It's our right.
So, you FFLs, got that, bubs?

P.S.: How about dealers making home deliveries? Ought to be part of the service provided under the FFL. And while they are at it, stop off and pick up
a pizza as part of their service package to the customer.

[dogtown tom]

UncleEd It seems to me that under the 2nd Amendment it is our right to have FFLs who do our bidding and keep their tiny greedy hands in their pockets. It's our right.
So, you FFLs, got that, bubs?

I've read that three times and have no idea what you are trying to say.

As an FFL I would love to see the repeal of the GCA '68 that created the Federal Firearms License.

P.S.: How about dealers making home deliveries? Ought to be part of the service provided under the FFL. And while they are at it, stop off and pick up a pizza as part of their service package to the customer.

More than one newbie FFL has asked that same question. Unfortunately, Federal law/ATF regulations prohibit dealers from conducting business at anyplace other than their licensed premises or a gunshow/special event.

§478.50 Locations covered by license.

The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made;

(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of §478.100; or

(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of §478.100.

[T.D. ATF-191, 49 FR 46890, Nov. 29, 1984, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]

Further, ATF regs prohibit dealers from conducting business from a wheeled

§478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of §478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.

(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]

[JohnKSa]

It was the dealers purchase and kept it to "sell' it to my buddy. It was the dealers firearm till he sold it to my buddy for all actual expenses. That was fine except he also charged him $25.00 for the transfer and that was not expected.

Sounds like he did him a favor.

There are two options when a dealer transfers a gun to a person.

1. Dealer buys the gun from a wholesaler/distributor adds profit and sales tax to his purchase price, sells it to a retail purchaser and performs the transfer to the retail purchaser.

2. Dealer accepts the delivery of a gun already purchased/owned by the retail purchaser, adds a transfer fee (and possibly sales/use tax) and then transfers it to the retail purchaser.

Unless the gun was very inexpensive, the profit plus sales tax would almost certainly be higher than a $25 transfer fee.

[Bill DeShivs]

JoeSixPack-
It's painfully obvious that you have never run a business.
What makes you think that you know what someone should charge for their services? Do you go to work and not expect a paycheck?
People like you are a nightmare for any businessman. No one owes you anything.