The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 21, 2017, 07:02 PM   #1
ARqueen15
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2017
Posts: 47
Combo/survival rifle vs Separate Guns

I'm in the process of planning to restock my rather depleted armory.

I've got a sidearm covered and an AR in the works as a primary defence rifle.

my question is about the remaining areas of what we'd call an arsenal.
specifically the question of a shotgun and a .22 rifle which everyone always suggests and that do have their uses. With that in mind would you opt for a combo or survival type gun with mutiple calibers like the chiappa x-caliber or m6 ( a 12 gauge + .22 over under setup) vs a dedicated 22 like a 10/22 or m&p 15-22 and a typical mossberg 500/Remington 870?

what do you think the pros and cons would be? what would you opt for if you already had a sidearm and battle rifle?

the niche I'm envisioning is probably small game like tree rats and bunnies with the 22 as well as turkey and even deer with the 12 gauge. another obvious able is survival in the absence and perhaps in addition to my other firearms. I don't know how realistic it is to take game with such a rifle..
the sights might not be tuned for both barrels and obviously a single shot can work but it does preclude follow up shots....then there's the question of Amy optics you might add and how to zero two barrels (it does have a rail which is good).

I don't know if these combo rifles are accurate ( barrel looks short, 18.5, and that looks like that would reduce the range of 12 gauge given shot spread for hunting), durable, and reliable enough as I have no experience with chiappa or even any mutlical gun.

thanks!

Last edited by ARqueen15; June 21, 2017 at 07:10 PM.
ARqueen15 is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 07:28 PM   #2
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
I'm no expert for sure but I'd choose a 10-22 and a 44 mag revolver. A decent shot can kill game with an accurate 22lr at least as far as a 410 will kill. A 44 mag revolver can repel boarders far better than a single shot 410.
Mobuck is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 07:29 PM   #3
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Unless you high end, most of the cheap combination guns are not very well made, nor accurate. (BTW, when it comes to choke, barrel length is not the deciding factor, the choke is). You can get a separate .22 rifle and a basic Mossberg/Remington 12 gauge pump typically for less anyway.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 07:39 PM   #4
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
I think a well rounded arsenal would contain a good .22lr and a good 12 gauge shotgun. A combo sounds interesting but I'd rather have my CZ452 and 870 or even a good single shot .22 rifle and a good single shot 12 gauge.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 08:12 PM   #5
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,685
Skip the combo guns because their crosseyed accuracy isn't what you want with only one sight. Either the rifle half is accurate or the shotgun side.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 09:03 PM   #6
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Unless it is one of those nice German Drillings.......
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old June 21, 2017, 10:58 PM   #7
CDR_Glock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2010
Posts: 704
Always get separate firearms. For a survival 22, weight is key. A semiauto is not necessary. A bolt action is more accurate and reliable.

For a shotgun, pump is the way to go. You don't have to worry about Load types as they'll cycle. Semiauto can be finicky with low recoil or certain types of birdshot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
CDR_Glock is offline  
Old June 22, 2017, 03:11 AM   #8
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
Not sure what you mean by survival rifle, that could mean a lot of different things.

If I had to head out into the woods for a year and live like a hermit I'd probably go with mobucks suggestion.. 22lr, and a decent handgun..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck View Post
I'm no expert for sure but I'd choose a 10-22 and a 44 mag revolver. A decent shot can kill game with an accurate 22lr at least as far as a 410 will kill. A 44 mag revolver can repel boarders far better than a single shot 410.
I think 44mag is overdone.. I'd go with a scoped 357, I doubt many 2 or 4 legged beasts in north American could tangle with more then a couple shots of that.

I don't have any experience with .410.. but man 12ga is heavy stuff... I mean seriously I could not imagine carrying more then about 100 rounds of that stuff.. 22lr would go MUCH MUCH further for the weight.

I've heard of people taking deer with 22's.. thru the eye I think.. honestly it seems like a tough shot to me.. but I couldn't say for sure though.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old June 22, 2017, 11:48 AM   #9
the possum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 555
Closer shots often tend to be at moving critters; longer shots you usually have more time to line up carefully on a critter unaware of your presence. It seems to me a shotgun would be better for the former, and a centerfire rifle for the latter. But since it's unhandy to carry two long guns, we end up carrying a combo such as a shotgun and an accurate & powerful pistol. I'd like to go the other way, and carry a 20 gauge pistol (if it weren't for those pesky laws) and a rifle. Maybe a Hawdaw could work...

A German Drilling could do both well, and I've seen several sell for less than $800 lately on Gun Broker, and there's a bunch in the ~$1000 range now. I'd greatly prefer one of these for that fast follow-up shot; like I said the critters may be moving fast, or there could be several of them.

Lothar Walther and other companies make chamber inserts/adapters so you can shoot .22 or other sub caliber rounds out of bigger rifles. These seem to be more popular in European countries that limit the number of guns a person can own (or just make it difficult to buy another gun). Some use set screws, lock collars, and indexing marks so you can get them shooting to the sights, and be repeatable when removed/reinstalled.


I'd love to see someone make a single shot .22 using a thin barrel liner and some kind of action that's small and weighs only a couple ounces. The idea being, you could mount it right on an existing centerfire rifle or shotgun, positioned so you could just tilt the gun a little to use its own set of sights, and have a trigger/button that could be fired via the off-hand thumb. That pesky law about needing a 16" barrel would make it less handy, but I think still doable with many guns.
the possum is offline  
Old June 22, 2017, 12:42 PM   #10
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
My answer to the perfect gun is "one of each"

The closest I have had to depend on a survival gun was my first two years in Alaska. I lived in a little cabin in Lignite, north of Healy. I got laid off in the winters and had zero income coming in. I had several other rifles/pistols but fed my family (wife and two toddlers) with a Savage 24D 22/410.

I still have that thing but I'm pretty sure my "having to survive" days are over.

But I'm still buying guns just in case.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old June 22, 2017, 09:11 PM   #11
ARqueen15
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2017
Posts: 47
thanks for sharing your thoughts, anecdotes, and ideas.

kraig...very impressive to have freed your family with that little combo. the 410 has always seemed like more of an experts gun to me fit anything beyond very small game, close up so that's a feat!

as was suggested I certainly agree that any sort of combo gun is going to be lacking when compared to two separate guns in the desired combos.

the flip side to that is I've never carried more than one long gun on any hunt (I've usually had a sidearm + .22 rifle (for small game) OR shotgun for birds....I admit, I don't know anyone who does carry two long guns. so in theory this combo gun could give you the flexibility of 2 guns while carrying one.

the comments on the sights though suggest accuracy might be tricky with whatever barrel isn't sighted in though I guess you could try to pattern it abdominal adjust accordingly.

all told the combo gun could be a bug out bag candidate.

with all that said, I'm inclined to pick up a decent 12 gauge like an 870 or mossberg 500 since they would let me hunt almost anything provided I had the right ammo and didn't fill small game with too many pellets.

comparatively, the. 22 seems like a fun to have option that isn't nearly as versatile though there's no denying ammo is far cheaper and infinitely lighter.
ARqueen15 is offline  
Old June 22, 2017, 10:23 PM   #12
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,744
Easy

n a survival situation, the 12 guage and 22 will be more practical to put meat on the table than a 223 AR. Also a 308 bolt gun is more practical for survival than a semi auto AR. Handguns are not all that useful in a survival situation but better than no gun for sure. 357 magnum is hard to beat for # of rounds carried vs power. No it ain't no 44 magnum but well placed a 357 will kill a bear and a miss with a 44 won't.

My recommendations therefore would be:
Accurate compact 22 LR or 17 hmr with a scope. So a 10/22, Marlin 22, CZ 17 etc. In a survival situation the 17 hmr will have the advantage in accuracy, range and weight while the 22 will have the advantage in stealth if quiet ammo is chosen.

12 guage pump or semi auto shotgun with choke tubes and 26" barrel maximum. Shot size selection makes the shotgun the most versatile game getter. I think the Mossberg 500 switch barrel combos make a lot of sense but a short barrel turkey gun will do it all with one barrel with different screw in chokes and a selection of ammo. In a defense situation, it's hard to beat a shotgun as the most effective stopper.

Third would be a 308 or 3006 bolt gun that will take any game in north America out to several hundred yards.

Lastly would be a 357 magnum revolver. 9mm has an advantage of capacity and something like a 44 mag would have the advantage of power while 357 is the best balanced chambering in a backwoods survival gun and makes a great combination handgun/rifle chambering that can be an effective hunting cartridge at close range and with 38 special ammo may even do the job of a 22 on small game.
rc is offline  
Old June 23, 2017, 07:05 AM   #13
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
Another vote for two guns, .22 rimfire and pump shotgun.
For no other reason than being able to arm two people instead of just the one the combo gun would allow.
Hunting in pairs with both guns would probably increase the chance of success.
Hunting alone with one of those two choices would about cover most circumstances, too.
Especially after scouting and knowing who and what is where.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old June 23, 2017, 11:01 AM   #14
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
I had a Savage 22/20ga. Jack of all trades and master of none. I wasn't very good with the shotgun barrel, actually it's only value came in shooting critter's that could be had with the 22! In a survival situation I'd want my 22 mag and a 20 or 12 ga pump shotgun. Even killing an elk with a 22 mag should be really easy if you use the rifle properly. Most the shotgun would probably get is grouse, 20 ga works very well. Come to think of it, I'd probably hold on to either a 20 or 12ga in a SxS. I've got a pump that hasn't been fired in years. In a survival situation you should probably shoot what your comfortable with but not an auto loader.

Probably would also want a handgun. Forget the idea of protecting yourself from dangerous animals and human's. Escape and evade is a much better tactic for most people. But a lot of people prefer to stand their ground regardless of their lack of training. My hand gun would be a 22 LR, probably my High Standard HD Military. It's light, your can carry a lot more ammo than you'll need and it will do about all the 22 mag will do but a closer range. I'd carry it because it is easy to pack and like I said, escape and evade is the best way to go.
Don Fischer is offline  
Old June 23, 2017, 11:20 AM   #15
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
Don I would agree avoidance would likely be better choices in any WROL situation..
No matter how well your training is.. people stock pile 1k's of rounds but you can't carry that crap with you without a vehicle and you'd probably never get a chance to shoot it all before some lucky shot got you.

rule of averages.

That said, Not all fights can be avoided.. Best to keep 1 eye on defending against such eventualities.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old June 23, 2017, 11:27 AM   #16
the possum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 555
I've always thought a well rounded battery should include a shotgun, .22, pistol, and (centerfire) rifle. The shotgun should be able to handle upland game and waterfowl, and maybe also home defense. The .22 is for small game, pests, and lots of cheap practice. The pistol should be concealable yet powerful enough to still consider yourself "armed" when out and about (on rural property the power and accuracy become more important). The centerfire rifle should be capable of cleanly taking whatever big game you have in your area, and should be accurate enough to take shots longer than what are practical with the pistol or shotgun.

I also see a mid caliber semi auto carbine as very useful if your main rifle is a magnum bolt action (for example), but it may not be worth it if your main rifle also happens to be a hi-cap semi auto.

Quote:
As was suggested I certainly agree that any sort of combo gun is going to be lacking when compared to two separate guns in the desired combos.

The comments on the sights though suggest accuracy might be tricky with whatever barrel isn't sighted in though I guess you could try to pattern it and adjust accordingly.
I'd expect this to be much less of a problem with the German Drillings, since they're generally very high quality. The rifle has its own sight that (usually) pops up automatically when you select the rifle barrel.
the possum is offline  
Old June 23, 2017, 02:17 PM   #17
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
I'M not a fan of one gun for everything, but If I was, I'd look at something like the 45-70.

I load bird shot and rifle bullets in mine. Use heavier shot for small game.

I normally use 405 gr bullets in my 45-70s, loaded between 12-1300 fps (standard Army load.

Using the same powder charge I put a wad over the powder, add 1 oz. of shot held in by another wad and I have a shot gun.

Its been said, the Model 73 Winchester won the west. That's a myth, only works in movies and on TV.

Few farmers, ranchers, cowboys or miners could afford the M73. They used single shot rifles and shotguns. Either bullets or shot. Even rocks and small piece of scrap iron.

The army gave away 45-70 Ammo and guns in order to get people to rid the plains of buffalo, making it easier to get the Indians onto reservations.

As I said, I'm not getting rid of any of my guns, but its hard to beat the versatility of the larger caliber single shot rifles. Get a supply of brass, cast your own bullets and shot, they are pretty cheap to shoot.


The army load for the 45-70 a long range round and is fairly low recoil, even with a steel butt plate, as seen in the below picture of my granddaughter going though over 200 rounds in one after noon through my trapdoor.

__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old June 24, 2017, 08:36 AM   #18
roashooter
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Posts: 508
If I am in survival mode...I can easily carry a thousand rounds of 22....how many of you can carry a thousand rounds of 12 gauge? With a 357mag...all other contingency's are covered.
roashooter is offline  
Old June 24, 2017, 09:05 AM   #19
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,713
I think any gun will do if you can do a good job with that gun.
Ammo is the more important factor.

Survival in the outdoors or a remote cabin that is isolated from "civilization" sound like a back drop for discussion, but it's still too vague.
A man who needed to feed himself way back in the swampy woods of Louisiana may choose something a lot different than man spending a month is the Selway wilderness of Idaho and still different again would be the choice of the man spending 4 weeks in central Nevada.
A 22 rifle will cover a lot of ground in any one of the 3. But so would a good 308. So would a 375H&H. There would not be a lot of need for that much power in Louisiana, but so what....it would still work. Just not a "custom fit" so to speak.

If you have ammo for your firearm you can do well with about any gun, anywhere. But the key is how well you can use that gun. Skill will trump hardware 99.5% of the time.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old June 25, 2017, 03:54 PM   #20
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,000
an ou/drilling is the answer if a man could only carry one gun

or a drilling with a barrel insert

12gauge
22lr or 22wmr/22hornet etc
and perhaps 30-06 or even heftier tbh a 375hh and you could be dropped down anywhere in the world and do alright if only the wild concern you
Husqvarna is offline  
Old June 26, 2017, 10:59 AM   #21
ARqueen15
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2017
Posts: 47
Some random thoughts...

I found a couple of charts on ammo weights and it sure makes you pause. For home defense I'd stick by a shotgun over near anything but in any situation where i'd be bugging out, it's tough to see it being the top choice. The ammo is just so heavy, it's about 10 pounds for just 100 rounds whereas that same quantity in 5.56 is ~2.75 lbs. And no matter how big or fit one is, there are limits and other things such as water, food, etc, can't really be shrunk or made lighter. Not that I think bugging out is likely or even ideal as living off the land is a whole lot easier in the imagination and TV than reality but if it did happen, i can't see myself humping around a shotgun as my SHTF firearm.

45-70 seems like fun, like one of those marlin guide guns but the ammo prices definitely put me in the camp of admirer and not buyer. I guess reloading could help and brass wouldn't be an issue but that's still a whole lot of lead that has to be bought (or cast which is beyond my abilities) even if you use lower power loads with less powder.

Here's one for all of you that i've been wondering about having never owned a true bolt gun for very long...

How many rounds do you think you could put through a say, .223/.243/.308 bolt gun before it breaks down? I know exactly what that number looks like for a typical main battle rifle like an AK or AR (could be as little as 1500 rounds for a POS rifle with a busted cam or bolt carrier or a broken spring or it could be 10k+ for something well made) as well as a 10-22 which can last for thousands of rounds too. What i'd like to know is how long something like a ruger scout rifle, a howa, or weatherby vanguard would last before needing repairs. Obviously you're going to get to that number faster on a semi-auto platform. Some people will say that they had X rifle for 40 years but in reality maybe that gun has only seen a couple hundre rounds. What i'm looking for is in a round for round comparison how many could you put through an average bolt gun and what would be the most common cause of failure?
ARqueen15 is offline  
Old June 26, 2017, 12:00 PM   #22
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
How many rounds do you think you could put through a say, .223/.243/.308 bolt gun before it breaks down?
A lot. Probably more than an AR 15.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old June 26, 2017, 12:14 PM   #23
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Quote:
And no matter how big or fit one is, there are limits and other things such as water, food, etc, can't really be shrunk or made lighter. Not that I think bugging out is likely or even ideal as living off the land is a whole lot easier in the imagination and TV than reality but if it did happen, i can't see myself humping around a shotgun as my SHTF firearm.
Personally, if you've waited that long before getting out to another location, you need to rethink your plan. That said, the 12 gauge pump can be had to shot slugs, heavy shot like buck, small shot for game birds and even a muzzle loader - that should cover about 95% of the scenarios.

When it comes to survival, KISS is your friend and while ARs are real popular, the guns with the least moving (and breakable) parts rule the day.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old June 26, 2017, 09:18 PM   #24
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,685
It's funny watching people scared of a bit of weight. All guns can be heavy or light. Beyond that how much ammo do you really need. A single shot 12 gauge, muzzleloader, or bolt action centerfire can all weight the same.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old June 27, 2017, 10:48 AM   #25
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
it's not so much the gun.. although some are pretty heavy..
the weight of the gun is really only a problem if you're going to carrying it a lot.. an hour of walking around is fine even with a heavy gun.. but walking around all day.. it wears on you.

The thing of most concern is the ammo weight.. 12ga is heavy stuff.. most loads are AT LEAST 7/8 of an oz (and that's not count hull, wad, powder).. a pound is 16oz.. do the math.. it adds up really quick.

Im not a fan of side settles, butt stock shell holders or slings with shell loops.
I never understood why people would want to make what is usually an already heavy gun even heavier with ammo strapped to it.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12003 seconds with 10 queries