.22LR mv and SD

[tangolima]

Aguilar super extra 40gr plated RN has been my go-to ammo. It is a compromise between performance and my cheapness. So far I'm quite happy with it.

I took the chance to measure its mv yesterday, for the first time ever. 10 shots, mean=1234fps, SD=20fps, SD/mean=1.6%. I wasn't impressed. It is lousier than my worst handload 3x over.

Did you measure yours? What budget ammo of similar price but with smaller SD would you recommend?

Some said sorting the rim thickness would help. But does it?

-TL



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[FrankenMauser]

With some of the stupidly expensive .22 LR match ammo, I have seen SDs in the single digits for 20+ rounds.
But most common stuff is going to be ~40(+) fps for a 20 round test, and it is not uncommon to see SDs approaching 80 fps in 20+ rounds for cheap and/or bulk ammo.

The *generally* most consistent 'cheap' option is CCI Standard Velocity 40 gr RN
CCI Blazer 40 gr RN is a decent 'high velocity' alternative. (It is CCI Mini-Mags without the copper wash on the bullets. --Which is good. Copper hurts accuracy for .22 LR.)

I shoot a lot of Eley Club and Wolf Match Extra (made by Eley). SDs for a bad lot are often in the teens. Most lots will hold to about 8-10 fps, but there's always something to push the ES out. Every lot of ammo drops rounds here and there.

Yesterday, I tested a bunch of ammo in two rifles. (But did not have my chrono.) One rifle I occasionally shoot in matches, and one that I *want* to shoot for PRS22 and PRO, but the dang thing keeps letting me down. I had SK Rifle Match give me a 10-shot group that had about an inch of vertical stringing at 50 yards. That is okay for rabbits, but not PR(x) matches. Right next to that SK group was CCI Std with about 3/8" to 1/2" vertical spread. (I didn't measure anything.)
Some rifles hate some ammo. And every type of ammo drops shots here and there.

Though I do like several varieties of Aguila (non-bulk pack), the testing that I've done with it does show less consistency that I'd like. It is still my squirrel and rabbit popping ammo, but you won't ever seen me use it in a match now.

Rim thickness, in my opinion, depends on the rifle, firing pin type, and firing pin / striker spring. Rifles with very heavy springs and not-sharp firing pins do not care (unless the rim is too thick to close the bolt). Rifles with broad or round firing pins might prefer a thinner rim, or a heavier spring.
Rifles with "sharp" flat firing pins tend to do better with thicker rims, because there is, theoretically, more priming compound for that sharp point to crush.

We had a big match last weekend, with some top level talent competing.
I overheard a local top shooter ask Chris Baxter if he tried sorting by rim thickness. (The guy that recently made waves on Instagram by shooting a .22 LR MPA action with a $15k structured barrel to 1,200 yards.)
The answer, summarized, "It isn't worth my time. I lot test and order a bunch of what works."
(If you look at the most popular rifles for top shooters, the firing pins are nearly always round or square and broad, with heavy strikers and heavy springs. And that spills down into cheaper options, too - like the CZ457 and Tikka T1x. Consistent ignition is incredibly important for rimfire ammo.)

My absolute bottom line for rimfire ammo is never, ever buy bulk pack if you want consistency. Even if is an otherwise "good" load, the bulk packaging and handling causes problems. Leading theories in the precision rimfire world, and from ballisticians, is that the priming compound gets cracked. Poor performance results, once all of your primers are initiating differently, with differing brisance.
Good priming, and keeping it intact, are the foundation of good rimfire ammo. The rest comes from powder charge, bullet, and crimp.
But without good, intact priming compound, the rest doesn't matter.
Don't buy bulk ammo. Only buy boxed.

[tangolima]

Thanks for the input!

My Aguilar isn't too bad then. The group I shot was at 100yd. Vertical string is 3" max spread. Estimated 90% spread is 2.3". I can make it better by adjusting the barrel tuner, which is set for 150yd. As it is, higher MV hits lower and lower MV hits higher. It will come together closer at 150yd.

I don't want to buy boutique ammos. Aguilar I bought is 500 rounds in a box. It is bulk I think. I tried non plated and went back to plated. Maybe I should revisit.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

"Bulk" ammo that is simply dropped loose in large quantities in a container/box I stay away from most of the time. "Bulk" ammo which consists of usually 50 count cartridges individually held in brackets and then shrunk-wrapped in 10 packs--and then even in cases of the ten packs (which I generally can't afford)-- is what I generally buy because that gives you the consistency of the production lot number. I do buy exorbitantly priced premium ammo in 10 packs because there is a measurable improvement in my rifles over buying cheaper stuff. I know Aquila is quite popular, but it's never been very good in what i shoot it through, and I don't like mixing jacketed and lead in my bores. I generally don't shoot cheap stuff simply because at longer ranges it's going to show--at least in my rifles with me shooting it. The one exception to that for me is Norma's Tac 22 which I've found is consistently very good in everything I've shot it through and thankfully is generally very affordable; I've often found (and chrono'd) it's performance to be very close to other ammo maker's cartridges that are the next level down from their top premium stuff. It does start to fall off at longer distances (say 150 yards +) compared to the second or third tier stuff, but closer in performs outstandingly well at its price point for me. My less than 2 cents.

An SD of 20 for cheapo ammo is actually quite good IMO, only the best of the best have I seen numbers in the single digits. And that only happens if the rifle and me are shooting "in the sweet spot." If you're dancing with hand-loads in the 1,250 fps range you're getting near the area where you'll start being borderline for what conventional 22lr brass can handle.

[tangolima]

The ammo I usually buy is indeed in plastic bag in a big box. I didn't think it is anything worse than the those in 50-round "crate". Quite likely they were all from the same hopper; one just went through additional packaging steps.

Actually I bought individually packaged ammo when the bulk pack wasn't available. I really couldn't tell the difference. Perhaps it was the way I shoot (soda can at 150yd) or that the ammo is lousy enough for that to make difference. I also tried the tac 22. Didn't stay with it as I prefer higher speed to make the soda can jump or to kick dust when it hits the berm. I need that to adjust my hold.

Good to know more. Thanks. I will stay with what I have and revisit options when I have chance. It ain't bad till I did the test. Ignorance could really be bliss.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Quite likely they were all from the same hopper; one just went through additional packaging steps.

The better ammo is generally sorted out for better consistency of tolerances and tested performance; that's what you pay extra for when paying additional money for stuff made at the same time.

[FrankenMauser]

Boxed ammo is, 98.5577734% of the time, better than bulk pack of the same variety.

And ignorance is bliss.
Until I started shooting NRL22, which lead to PRS22, which lead to NRL22X, which lead to PRO series, I thought I knew .22 LR. And I thought my rifles shot great.
I was, after all, the greatest rabbit killing machine of all time!!!!!

But it turns out that it is the most complicated, most incredibly deceiving, most mystical cartridge that is used in competition.
.22 LR is a very difficult cartridge to tame.
You're better off trying to tame the aspects of garbage grade 5.56 rejects, or LC 7.62 Nato "seconds". You'll find the answers sooner.


I greatly enjoy shooting .22 LR precision matches - of any type -- the harder the better.
But I am still learning in every match. This cartridge is a really unique thing in the competition world. I just cannot describe it in any other way. None of our modern ballistics calculators or computers were made for the cartridge. None of our drop tables are correct. None of the traditional wisdom applies.
It is a world of its own.
I love it. (And hate it.)

[stagpanther]

It is a world of its own.
I love it. (And hate it.)

Couldn't have said it better myself; one reason why I'll never stop shooting 22lr as long as I can pull a trigger.

[tangolima]

I wouldn't doubt boutique ammo is better. Money goes to making and sorting. But Aguilar super extra bulk and box? I am not sure it is the case. Boxed is only slightly more expensive. The money goes to packaging.

My 22lr is a training tool for longer range center fired. There is no match to win or record to break. Just my own learning. Of course better consistency is always better.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

I wouldn't doubt boutique ammo is better. Money goes to making and sorting. But Aguilar super extra bulk and box? I am not sure it is the case. Boxed is only slightly more expensive. The money goes to packaging.

My 22lr is a training tool for longer range center fired. There is no match to win or record to break. Just my own learning. Of course better consistency is always better.

-TL

That's all that matters, it performs well for your purposes. I sometimes will get consecutive impacts on top of each other with aiguila but there will always reliably be a some outliers that throw the group and targeting. Thing about 22lr (which might be a "hate part" Franken mentioned ) is that it is so vulnerable to environmental changes that it's hard for me to know what is due to conditions and what is due to improper scope dope so it's easy for me to chase the impacts off the target altogether. That's why I pay for the premium stuff that at least theoretically reduces the variability due to consistency of ballistics of the cartridge.

[tangolima]

Try airgun, then you will experience love-hate to a higher level. Sling shot, that another level higher. I did both.

.22lr rifle, I can hit soda can at 150yd better than 50%. Airgun(.25 cal pellet) is clay pigeon at 110yd. Sling shot (1/2" clay ball) is 8" plate at 30yd.

Monkeyed with the barrel tuner at 150yd this afternoon. I got 2" vertical string 10-shot. Unfortunately the horizontal spread is almost 2x. There was wind, so I will try again.

-TL





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[stagpanther]

Try airgun, then you will experience love-hate to a higher level.

Just what I need--another sinkhole to throw thousands of dollars I don't have down.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Just what I need--another sinkhole to throw thousands of dollars I don't have down.

Doesn't have to be that much. My .25 cal regulated PCP cost $400. I hand pump.

Slingshot is even cheaper. Don't buy the cheap ones from China though. They look fancy but don't work well. I went through cancer treatment during pandemic. Shooting slingshot in backyard was my working out and hobby to set my mind on. I think I fired over 15k clay balls.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

I also have a stable of primitive wood and compound archery bows which I've tended to neglect the older I get; If I'm shooting in my yard that's what I'm going to grab for.

[tangolima]

I heard cci blazer and AR tactical are good. I'm getting some from turners to try. 10 cents a round even on sales. Oh well, if it works better. I will do it.

-TL

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[tangolima]

Hey hey, cci blazer kicks butt. Same mv 1235fps. SD went from 20 to 12. Group at 150yd shrank from 3.4moa to 2.4moa. Switching over when Aguilar uses up.

The store sold out AR tactical when I arrived.

-TL

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[FrankenMauser]

Good to hear.

CCI Blazer 40 gr RN is my high velocity option for when I need to stretch my scope reticle a little more. -- Shooting so far that I am out of adjustment in the turret and holding beyond the limits of the reticle, at least for standard velocity ammo.
I've been to a few matches that had us shooting as far as 650 yards, which is a ~130 MoA drop (or ~37.3 mils).


It can also give a slight advantage on windy match days, but I know that isn't important to most people.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Good to hear.



CCI Blazer 40 gr RN is my high velocity option for when I need to stretch my scope reticle a little more. -- Shooting so far that I am out of adjustment in the turret and holding beyond the limits of the reticle, at least for standard velocity ammo.

I've been to a few matches that had us shooting as far as 650 yards, which is a ~130 MoA drop (or ~37.3 mils).





It can also give a slight advantage on windy match days, but I know that isn't important to most people.

How big is the target? I can't guarrantee to hit a torso size target at that distance even with my best center fired rifle. If you have a SFP scope, you can extend the reticle hold big time by reducing magnification. Stacked hold is another option. Not that I have done it in the field. The farther I have shot .22lr to hit some thing with confidence is 200yd. I'm in the HV camp, perhaps for silly reasons.

I ordered 1,000 rounds of blazer last night. One place online had very good price but charged $65 for shipping. The place I ended up was more reasonable. CCI AR tactical is still illusive. It is supposed to be slightly better.

-TL

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[FrankenMauser]

Try SGammo.com next time you are in the market. Over $200, you get free shipping.

---

Target size depends on how difficult the match director/designer wants it to be.
I've shot (or shot at ):
A 12" round plate at 450 yards (predominant wind direction quartering from behind and left, but the plate was sheltered in a gully after ~125 yd).
24" and 48" squares at 500 yards (predominant wind direction being full-value cross-wind).
A standard (24x18"?) IPSC silhouette at 650 (predominant wind straight down range but the berms and topography make everything super swirly and turbulent).

On my "home" range - local, home base, not my property - we shoot to 375 and 380 quite regularly. Those targets are typically 10" or 12" plates (round or square), going down to 2" round if someone wants a real challenge or we're setting it up like a KYL target array. Standard is 10"/12", but it is not unheard of to have 8, 6, 4, and 2 inch out there to tempt people.

[tangolima]

10" at 375yd? Goodness. Where Satan lives needs to have snow storm 2 years in a row before I can hit it with .22lr. impressive!

-TL

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[FrankenMauser]

We shoot a "long gong" challenge every month, from April to October, at the local range.
300 yards.
8, 6, 4, 2 inches.
1, 2, 4, 8 points.
You call the shot and go for what you think you can hit. If you miss, you have to go back to the last target (or bigger, if you call it).
Five attempts of 10 rounds each are added up.
Prizes are given for the best round, and the best total score. And the best "season" score, at the end of the season.

We live where wind is a nightmare. But, sometimes, you get lucky.
Our high score for a single 10-round stage is 29 points. 1-2-4-8-8-4-2.
Most people average about 9-10 points on a good day. (I shot a "long gong" in which my best score was a 4, but the winner also only had a 9 for his best round. And he was shooting an airgun. )

Our next "long gong" is this coming Saturday.
I am excited.
$10 entry fee to miss a bunch of targets and then find out that everyone else missed almost as many? I'm in!

[tangolima]

Interesting. I set up similar challenge for myself before. Progressively smaller targets at 150yd to emulate longer distances. I can only fire 2 shots in quick succession to score on one target. If I hit, then I promote to the next target smaller. If I miss, then I have to wait one minute to restart on next target bigger. The wait is to make myself reread the wind. 10 rounds. The smallest target hit is the final score. It is for center fired. Target too small for .22lr.

Now it has been replaced by 1moa 10-shot game. So far I'm still trying. Getting close.

.22LR is training tool for the challenge. Soda can place on 150yd berm. Just count the hit rate. 70% on good day, below 50% on the others. That is with Aguilar. CCI Blazer will make it better, I hope.

-TL

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[603Country]

I have a Tikka T1X, which is quite accurate. I don’t compete, but did buy a lot of 22 ammo in my search for which ‘cheap’ ammo was most accurate in my rifle. The CCI Blazer turned out to be the best. But, in my critter control efforts, a lead RN bullet wasn’t very effective on Coons and skunks. So then I started to search for the most accurate hollow point ammo, knowing that HP ammo is generally less accurate than RN ammo. For a year or more, I used Remington Golden HP for critters (it shot pretty good) and Blazer when visitors wanted to shoot paper. Both were able to meet the Tikka accuracy promise. But, I ran low on the old box of Remington Golden, so I bought a new box, which didn’t shoot as well as the older ammo. So, I bought some more HP ammo for testing, and I was happy to find that the new Remington Golden Hunter 40 gr HP shot as well as the Blazer. Shooting off front and rear bags I was able to put 10 rounds into 1/2” at 50 yards. No fliers. I bought more. If you want a good shooting HP brand, give it a try.

[tangolima]

That's good. Thanks. You have chance to chrono its speed?

I was told CCI AR tactical could be better than blazer. It is 40gr plated. Not sure whether it is HP though.

-TL

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[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Aguilar super extra 40gr plated RN has been my go-to ammo. It is a compromise between performance and my cheapness. So far I'm quite happy with it.

I took the chance to measure its mv yesterday, for the first time ever. 10 shots, mean=1234fps, SD=20fps, SD/mean=1.6%. I wasn't impressed. It is lousier than my worst handload 3x over.

Did you measure yours? What budget ammo of similar price but with smaller SD would you recommend?

I don't measure velocities, but I do test ammunition whenever I get a new rimfire barrel.

If you like Aguila for the price anyway, try the ordinary standard velocity.

I have some CMMG barrels that shoot Aguila Subsonic very well (1.5" at 100 yards) and will shoot Aguila SV almost as well. I've run through maybe 30,000 rounds of it over the last five years at not much more than $200 a case when it had the diagonal blue stripe on the front of the box. The box shown online is different now, and I've not bought since covid pricing so I can't assure you that it is made to the same standard.