Colt Cobra/Agent and +p

[M14fan]

Can Colt Cobra from 60s handle +P loads for carry? Ammo recommendations?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Those who have them put a very limited diet of +P through them. I haven't heard of any problems doing so. If you ask Colt they will probably tell you no. They aren't rated for it.

[Dfariswheel]

Starting with the heavy shrouded barrel Colt "D" frames of the mid-1970's Colt rated the steel frames for "Up to" 3,000 rounds of +P.
The aluminum frames were rated for up to 1,500.

After those amounts of +P the gun was to be sent back to Colt for inspection and possibly frame replacement.

The pre-shrouded models were not factory rated for +P ammo.
However, many people shoot the "D" frames with standard ammo for practice and load the +P for carry.
+P won't blow up a "D" frame Colt, but it does cause faster wear and the gun will need action maintenance sooner.

[Outpost75]

First measure end shake. Any end shake you can "feel" on a Colt (about 0.002") is too much and shooting ANY +P in an alloy frame which is already loosening is NOT recommended.

Barrels cannot be set back to reduce B-C gap on an LW frame due to risk of frame damage. The factory fix to correct excessive barrel-cylnder gap was to refit a +0.005" longer cylinder. But today those parts are no longer available.

In a correct and tight as-new or armorer serviced gun using +P for carry and standard pressure for practice and training is OK. Do not use full charge duty ammo for quals. Use a STEEL duplicate gun for quals if full charge duty ammo is required by your department. Rotate out and replace with fresh the +P carry ammo from your LW at 60-day intervals. Shoot up the rotated out old ammo in your light frame off-duty or backup piece to confirm POI and to refamiliarize yourself with its recoil. Other wise avoid unnecessary use of +P ammo in the LW gun.

Keep a log of type and number of rounds fired. Armorer inspection should be done annually. In a pre-1972 lightweight alloy gun limit +P to no more than 1 box of 50 rounds annually and not more than 500 rounds spread over the entire service life of the gun. This assumes annual armorer inspection and adjustment and repair as needed.

Colt no longer services pre-1990 guns, claiming parts are no longer available. Colt service is also very spotty today! Ordinary repairs have a long lead time and guns are occasionally "lost". You can no longer depend upon getting a factory rebuild or frame replacement.

I recommend Frank Glenn or Sandy Garrett for Colt inspection, assessment, repairs or rebuilds.

[M14fan]

Thanks for the great info. I have several of different vintage. Plans are to shoot mostly 148 or 158 gr wadcutters/semiwadcutters. I do have a very few 130gr +P rounds. Just wanted to be sure a cylinder full here or there would be safe.

Very helpful information you have all shared here.

[Outpost75]

I carry my 1961 Colt Agent as EDC now that I am retired because I want the more compact, lighter gun for strong side hip pocket carry. Usual ammo is Federal factory wadcutter in the cylinder. The reload is 135-grain Speer Gold Dot, which is speed loader friendly and shoots to the same POI. I have a second heavy barrel Parkerized Agent as a New York Reload carried in an Azula IWB holster behind hip at 8:00 accessible to weak hand as a backup and spare. It is fed the same ammo. A 1982 Detective Special which is +P rated gets the heaviest range use, to save abuse of the lightweight guns. It resides in the travel bag and is packed with a mix of the same ammos.

[M14fan]

Another question:
PPU 158gr semiwadcutter. Rated at 905fps. Too hot or not?

[Outpost75]

CIP practice is to quote velocities from a solid test barrel rather than a vented test barrel which simulates revolver ballistics. I would measure velocity over a chronograph. If velocity is not over about 750 fps from your 2-inch snub it is not +P.

Standard pressure US commercial 158-grain lead ammo produces about 700 fps from.a 2- inch snub and 780 fps from a 4-inch.

Common 158 lead +P ammo like the Federal 38G is rated on the box at 890 fps from the 4-inch SAAMI vented test barrel. Velocity in typical 4-inch revolvers is similar in typical .38 Special chambered guns assembled at Mean Assembly Tolerance having B-C gap of Pass 0.005" / Hold 0.006".

The expectation for 158 +P is -50 fps for a true 2-inch snub. -60 fps in a 1-7/8" S&W.

Velocity will be about 10 fps less in .357 chambers and an additional 10 fps less for each 0.001" the B-C gap is larger than Mean Assembly Tolerance.

[44 AMP]

Back in the day when Colt still serviced these guns, they would not state they were rated for +P loads, officially.

They did say that occasional +p use should not harm the guns, but did request that if you shot +p, that you return the gun to Colt for inspection every 1,000 rounds. I don't think that's an option, today.

I have a Cobra, am not a big Colt revolver fan, but I like this one. Though it will never see 1,000 rnds during my lifetime, I just won't be shooting it that much, not even close. Mine has Pachmayr grips, and I really like the fact that it can use S&W K frame speedloaders which are everywhere.

Its kind of a nightstand gun, for me, though it lives in a desk drawer with a couple of speedloaders and is my pocket gun if I need to check out something in the yard during the night.

[M14fan]

Again. Thanks for the quick and very helpful responses. They are appreciated.

[Outpost75]

FWIW it always pays to MEASURE Colt, Ruger and S&W cylinders on evidence guns indicated for destruction. This is the only way you might get lucky and find a "long" cylinder for a future rebuild. Over 20 years stripping over a hundred guns for salvageable parts I have found only four S&W Long cylinders, two Colts and one Ruger. You may find these on refurbed cop guns but seldom in regular civilian production. Look for the INS (QC inspected) stamping on a Colt LE grip frame or a six- pointed star rebuild stamp on an S&W.

[603Country]

I have an old Python, and after many years of shooting it, I was concerned that I’d eventually have problems that would be tough to fix. I bought a S&W 686 to handle the shooting chores. The grandkids will run a lot of rounds through it when they visit.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by M14fan

Can Colt Cobra from 60s handle +P loads for carry? Ammo recommendations?

I wouldn't. Why would you? I would use 148 grain wadcutters.

[Dfariswheel]

There's plenty of premium defense ammo available that isn't +P and has very good performance.

Most any American made defense ammo with a jacketed hollow point will serve the need and not over stress a Colt "D" frame model.

Of course when it comes to +P or other hot ammo wearing the gun, if you ever need to actually use it, the very last thing you'll be worrying about is the gun.

Practice with standard .38 Special and load +P for carry.

[Outpost75]

Federal makes a non+P 110- grain HydaShok Low Recoil Personal Defense load which is optimized for the light alloy snubs. Winchester produces a non+P 110-grain Silvertip for the same purpose. These shoot close to.the fixed sights at 5 to 15 yards from the post-1972 heavy barrel guns having the shrouded ejector rod. They hit.VERY low in the skinny barrel guns pre 1972 which were targeted with 158 LRN. In those earlier guns the best carry ammo is wadcutter.

Common 130 grain FMJ Ball M41 or current similar range, training and practice ammo by Federal and others hits at the same point of impact as wadcutter, is standard pressure and is speed loader friendly. Velocity is about 730 fps from a snub, vs 700 for factory 148 HBWCs.

[GEM38]

I would try both the 148gr. WC & 158gr. SWC. Compare and contrast your range results. I am certain that one might emerge victorious over the other in terms of recoil, accuracy and follow-up shots.

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that the older Agents with skinny barrel hit to point of aim with wadcutter or 130 jacketed, and high with 158s, whereas the later ones with heavy barrel and shrouded ejector rod shoot high with wadcutter but on target with non+P 110-grain. YMMV.

[unit 900]

My 1960's Cobra is loaded with Hornady XTP 158 gr HP ammo when I carry it for CCW. Good penetration in testing and not hard on the gun. Newer carry revolvers are loaded with Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot for short barrels. I'm comfy with both loadings.

[Grump]

I recently spent some quality time with a Detective Special. No matter what load I shot, from light 148-grain full wadcutters, through 125-grain +P defense loads, and some 150-grain loads that I thought were pretty light, all of them were impacting about 6-to 8 inches high at 15 yards. How normal is this?

This thread came up when I was using my Google-fu to try to find point of impact data.

[105kw]

It's not normal.
First a couple of questions, what vintage is your DS?
Second is there any indication anybody monkeyed with the front sight?
I would expect your Colt was probably sited in with 158gr round nose lead bullets at 25yds.
But, expected does not mean that it is fact.

[polychoke]

Somewhat off-subject, the D-frame Cobra in 22LR is a solid, good-looking cousin that you can shoot all day. Mine had a 3" bbl and aluminum frame. I sold it a few years ago when parts and service became scarce.

[Sgt127]

I bought 500 rounds of the PPU 158 gr lead semiwadcutter. Accuracy dropped off. I got home to clean it and I could not see any rifling. It took choreboy to strip the lead out in sheets. Absolutely the worst ammo I’ve ever fired.

I did just pick up a few boxes of the Underwood Hard cast 150 gr wadcutters that I’m carrying in my Kimber K6xs. It’s rated for +P. However, the ammo, though frisky, is not rated +P.

I’m generally not of the thought that a .38 Special will expand out of a 2” barrel. And, if it does, the penetration will be pretty dismal. So, I’ll take penetration all day.

[Rockhanger]

What is the advantage of using wad cutters?
I've seen several people recommend them for carry.

[Recycled bullet]

The advantage of wad Cutters is light recoil and decent close range accuracy. A significant disadvantage is extremely slow Speed Loader reloading due to the flat nose, and generally also low velocity due to wadcutters usually being target loads.

[44 AMP]

What is the advantage of using wad cutters?
I've seen several people recommend them for carry.

The advantage of wad Cutters is light recoil and decent close range accuracy. A significant disadvantage is extremely slow Speed Loader reloading due to the flat nose, and generally also low velocity due to wadcutters usually being target loads.

This pretty much covers it, but a few things need a bit more clarification.

First is "decent close range accuracy". Since wadcutters have been the standard factory target load for generations, they are generally quite accurate, and, out of a snub nose, probably more accurate than most shooters.
Second, "extremely slow Speed Loader reloading" is an opinion. Its quite true you can't fumble and depend on the bullet noses to guide the rounds in, but even wadcutters in a speed loader are a bit faster than loading individual rounds one at a time.

Next point is which wadcutter loads you are talking about. There are two kinds these days. One, and most common, is the classic 148gr target load. The bullets are soft (not usually pure lead, but very close to it), and they are loaded to low velocities (less than 800fps in service length barrels), and shooting them from short barrels reduces their speed even more. The bullets are not made to expand, though being soft, they will deform when they hit something solid. The assumed advantage is the full caliber flat nose is the best for transferring energy to the target, and that is true.

However, the target load doesn't have a lot of energy (significantly less than the service load) and the flat point means it is not designed for best possible penetration. They are made for shooting paper targets where energy and penetration are not important. Low recoil and accuracy, are.

The other kind of wadcutter load available today is different. Some of the specialty ammo makers are offering wadcutter shape bullets, made of harder alloy, and driven faster, intended for use as defensive rounds, relying on the full caliber flat point bullet for effectiveness.

I would not recommend using the target load as a defense load. Full power loads with wadcutter shape bullets are a different matter.