Howell .45LC conversion cylinder

Hdonly · April 13, 2025, 06:48 AM

i have an 1858 Pietta New Model Army Sheriff 44. I purchased a Howell .44LC conversion cylinder. I was wondering if .44LC practice ammunition with plated lead bullets @ 880fps rating is safe to use. The Howell website says not to use jacketed bullets. Are plated bullets considered jacketed? I have really never dealt with plated bullets other than .22LR.

Hdonly · April 14, 2025, 08:01 AM

In case anyone wants to know, I did email the company with so far no response. I ask this question because it seems many of the brands of .45LC practice rounds use plated bullets.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 14, 2025, 11:48 AM

I don't have an official answer to your question. I can anecdotally report that I reload almost exclusively with Berry's plated bullets. I have shot my .45 Colt reloads through both a Howell's conversion cylinder and a Kirst Konverter cylinder with no apparent damage to me or the guns. My reloads are a bit milder than yours though -- around 750 fps.

Ricklin · April 14, 2025, 12:23 PM

Plated bullets are not jacketed. They behave like cast lead. Berry's warns to limit the velocity of their plated bullets, or perhaps they used to. Been a while since I have loaded any pistol ammo, been shooting .22 and 9mm lately.
I've loaded a lot of plated bullets, they behave like lead.

Throckmorton · April 14, 2025, 02:43 PM

plated and jacketed not the same ,plated are just prettier for the most part,and use cast lead data

Driftwood Johnson · April 14, 2025, 09:15 PM

So which is it? You mentioned 44LC in your first post, then 45LC in your second post. By the way, there is no such thing as 44LC (44 Long Colt). 45LC, usually refers to 45 Long Colt. There is also no such thing, despite what some boxes of ammo say, the official SAMMI name for the cartridge is simply 45 Colt.

Study this photo. It is of an antique Colt Richards Conversion. Pictured with the revolver are 4 antique 44 Colt cartridges. This was a cartridge developed for these conversion revolvers. Notice the bullets are the same diameter as the cartridge cases. This cartridge was developed specifically for this revolver. The bullets were .451 diameter, as were the cartridge cases. The bullets were 'heeled' meaning the rear were slightly smaller diameter, allowing the bullets to seat in the cases, but as I said, both were the same diameter. Just like modern 22 Rimfire ammunition.

Study this photo. These are all 45 Colt cartridges. Most of them are quite old, except the one all the way on the right, which is one of my reloads. Notice, unlike the 44 Colt cartridges, ALL the bullets are the same diameter as the INSIDE of the cases. All modern cartridges (except 22 Rimfire ) are made that way, with the bullet seated INSIDE the case.

Anyway, using velocity to define safe ammunition is misleading. It is PRESSURE that causes a revolver cylinder to burst, not velocity. It is easy to duplicate velocity in handloads with widely varying pressures.

Here is my old EuroArms 1858 Remington with the R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinder that I bought for it over 20 years ago. Maximum SAAMI pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi. However ammunition sold as Cowboy Ammunition will be loaded down slightly and develop less pressure. Your Howell conversion cylinder should be completely safe to shoot with 45 Colt Cowboy loads. Be sure they have lead bullets.

armoredman · April 14, 2025, 10:41 PM

I've been using a Howell on my Uberti New Model Army for a while, and I have yet to shoot anything but my own cast reloads. I can tell you when I used to use Berrys that they do say use cast data. You should be fine as long as you stay under the velocity limits.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 15, 2025, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson

So which is it? You mentioned 44LC in your first post, then 45LC in your second post. By the way, there is no such thing as 44LC (44 Long Colt). 45LC, usually refers to 45 Long Colt. There is also no such thing, despite what some boxes of ammo say, the official SAMMI name for the cartridge is simply 45 Colt.

Study this photo. It is of an antique Colt Richards Conversion. Pictured with the revolver are 4 antique 44 Colt cartridges. This was a cartridge developed for these conversion revolvers. Notice the bullets are the same diameter as the cartridge cases. This cartridge was developed specifically for this revolver. The bullets were .451 diameter, as were the cartridge cases. The bullets were 'heeled' meaning the rear were slightly smaller diameter, allowing the bullets to seat in the cases, but as I said, both were the same diameter. Just like modern 22 Rimfire ammunition.

And today this cartridge is sometimes referred to as ".44 Colt Original," to differentiate it from modern .44 Colt ammunition that uses a .427" projectile, loaded in a case with a length somewhere between .44 Special and .44 Russian.

There are a couple of sources for moulds to make the proper heeled projectiles for this load. I don't cast. Several years ago I found a gentleman who occasionally whipped up batches of them for sale and I bought some. I believe he is now fully retired, so I don't know what I'll do if I use up the meager stash I have set aside.

I just found one source for loaded ammunition for .44 Colt: https://blackdogammunition.com/product/44-colt-2/

It's pricey, and the web site says out of stock, so it may or may not ever be available.

Old West Bullet Moulds has the correct mould: https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop...e-cavity-mould

Hdonly · April 15, 2025, 10:42 AM

"So which is it? You mentioned 44LC in your first post, then 45LC in your second post. By the way, there is no such thing as 44LC (44 Long Colt). 45LC, usually refers to 45 Long Colt. There is also no such thing, despite what some boxes of ammo say, the official SAMMI name for the cartridge is simply 45 Colt."

Well, just excuse my fat fingers. Pretty sure everone knows what I was talking about.

Driftwood Johnson · April 15, 2025, 11:22 AM

The old 44 Colt cartridge was designed to be chambered in the cylinder of a Colt Richards Conversion. The cylinders for these were cut down from 44 caliber Colt 1860 Army revolvers.

A breech plate was added to the frame of a standard 1860 Army revolver.

The breech plate included a loading gate so the revolver could be loaded without dismantling it. The breech plate also included a firing pin which can barely be seen in this photo, and the hammer was reshaped with a flat face to strike the firing pin.

Because the breech plate occupied space in the frame, the cylinders were cut down to make room for them.

This photo shows the Richards Conversion cylinder on the right, with a replica 1860 Army cylinder on the left.

This photo shows how the nipple area of the Cap & Ball revolvers was machined away and a new set of ratchet teeth cut into the cylinder. Two of the original cartridges are sitting in the chambers of the Richards Conversion cylinder.

The 44 Colt cartridge was designed to be used in the cut down cylinders of the Cap & Ball revolvers. The bullet was the same diameter as the round balls used in the C&B revolvers, about .451. The case was designed to fit into the cylinders, with an OD around .451 or so. These numbers are from memory, I don't have the revolver or ammo in hand right now. Because the bullet and the case shared the same OD, a heeled bullet was needed.

I bought a mold for a 44 Colt heeled bullet from Old West Bullet Molds a few years ago.

At the left in this photo is one of my original 44 Colt cartridges. Note the tiny rim. Note how the bullet is the same OD as the case. I ordered some 44 Colt brass from Starline a few years ago. So next to the original 44 Colt cartridge is an empty Starline 44 Colt case. Then a Starline 44 Colt loaded with a heeled bullet from my Old West Bullet Mold. All the way on the right is a modern 44 Special cartridge. Note the 44 Special case is slightly smaller in diameter than the 44 Colt case, and the bullet is seated INSIDE the case as with all other modern cartridges.

This photo shows some of the cast bullets and some loaded rounds. On the left is a Starline 44 Colt case, and another case with one of the Old West bullets seated. I discovered that 44 Russian brass also fits the chambers perfectly. I decided to load my '44 Colt/Russian' rounds into 44 Russian brass because I wanted less powder in the case, so as not to stress the cylinder, which is over 150 years old.

Driftwood Johnson · April 15, 2025, 11:28 AM

"Well, just excuse my fat fingers. Pretty sure everone knows what I was talking about."

I asked because at one point, one of the conversion cylinder manufacturers was also making a cylinder for 44 Colt. This is the modern 44 Colt cartridge which uses a .429 or so bullet, and is not suitable for an 1858 Remington. 44 caliber is actually a bit of a misnomer with the old C&B revolvers. "44" referred to the diameter the barrel was originally bored, or drilled. Then rifling was cut, making most of the old '44' caliber Cap & Ball revolvers actually 45 caliber. Just the old fashioned way of calling out the caliber.

armoredman · April 15, 2025, 10:16 PM

Thank you for the detailed explanations and the pics - learn something new every day.

Hdonly · April 16, 2025, 01:53 PM

Just got the 45colt practice ammunition I ordered in. The box is labeled 850fps This seems to be in line with many brands of Cowboy loads I have seen. That is the limit that the email response I got from Howell this morning stated as safe for this conversion. Many have stated that loading tables recommend using lead bullet loads for plated bullets also. I feel these should be safe to use.

armoredman · April 16, 2025, 09:26 PM

Enjoy is good health, sir.

Hdonly · April 19, 2025, 05:55 AM

My Howell conversion cylinder is a six shot cylinder. Most videos I watched on Youtube stated to only load five chambers. The conversion cylinder that I got has an extra bolt latch cut in between two of the cylinders creating a safe position where the hammer is in between two firing pins. I wonder if this is something new Howell is now doing.

Hawg · April 19, 2025, 03:40 PM

The pics on Howell's site show the extra notch.

armoredman · April 19, 2025, 09:41 PM

Mine has the safety notch - the hammer is too wide to fit in it, so it only gets loaded with 5 rounds if I was going to carry it, which I haven't yet. On the line it gets loaded with 6.

Hawg · April 19, 2025, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armoredman

Mine has the safety notch - the hammer is too wide to fit in it, so it only gets loaded with 5 rounds if I was going to carry it, which I haven't yet. On the line it gets loaded with 6.

Hammer? The notch is for the bolt.

Hdonly · April 20, 2025, 06:32 AM

Yes, I saw it on the website. I was just kinda curious if they always did that because none of the youtube videos I have seen mention it. I must say that the Howell conversion cylinder fits really good. No excessive tolerances anywhere. Good lock-up and close cylinder gap. Polish on the cylinder is not as good as it is on the gun, but it's acceptable.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 20, 2025, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by armoredman

Mine has the safety notch - the hammer is too wide to fit in it, so it only gets loaded with 5 rounds if I was going to carry it, which I haven't yet. On the line it gets loaded with 6.

Hammer? The notch is for the bolt.

Howells has made a few variations over the years. I bought one of the early (original) type from R&D for a Pietta clone of an 1858 Remington. Like the original black powder cylinder, it had six bores, and a safety notch between each pair of bores.

Some time after that, Howells sold the design and the rights to Cimmaron. Because he had sold the rights to that design, he could no longer sell it, so to get back into the market he had to make some changes. I don't remember exactly what those were.

Somewhere along the way, either R&D or Cimmaron came out with a version that had five chambers bored out and one that wasn't bored out. That was intended primarily for cowboy action shooters, since CASS rules call for loading five and leaving one empty. I don't remember if that was one of the ways Howells got around having sold his original design to Cimmaron.

I think it also matters if your conversion is for a Colt (clone) or a Remington (clone). The Remington conversions should have the safety notches between the firing pins for the chambers.

Hdonly · April 20, 2025, 01:58 PM

Mine is for the Pietta Remington. It is six shot but only has one safety notch on the cylinder.

armoredman · April 20, 2025, 03:48 PM

This, Hawg, is not for the bolt.

Edit to add, the conversions I've seen for the 1860/1851, modern ones, have the smaller fake chamber. I haven't bought one yet, but it's on the list for my 1860.

Hawg · April 21, 2025, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armoredman

This, Hawg, is not for the bolt.

Edit to add, the conversions I've seen for the 1860/1851, modern ones, have the smaller fake chamber. I haven't bought one yet, but it's on the list for my 1860.

Point taken but the OP was talking about extra bolt notches.

Hdonly · April 21, 2025, 07:16 AM

That is not a notch for the hammer. That is the hole drilled through the backplate for the alignment pin.

armoredman · April 21, 2025, 06:18 PM

Ah, I misread a few things. I went to the box the cylinder came in and IT says,
"In six shot conversion units, load only five rounds and let the hammer rest on the EMPTY sixth chamber. In the five shot conversion units there are ten cylinder stop notches. Five of these notches are set between the chambers and designed to be used to lock the cylinder out of battery and allow you to safely lower the hammer fully down between the loaded chambers for use in the popular 'Cowboy Action, (SASS) type matches."
Emphasis in the original.
So, I was wrong, and it was never meant for that, copy that. But it could be machined out slightly larger at the top of the hole to do exactly that.

April 13, 2025, 06:48 AM	#1
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	Howell .45LC conversion cylinder i have an 1858 Pietta New Model Army Sheriff 44. I purchased a Howell .44LC conversion cylinder. I was wondering if .44LC practice ammunition with plated lead bullets @ 880fps rating is safe to use. The Howell website says not to use jacketed bullets. Are plated bullets considered jacketed? I have really never dealt with plated bullets other than .22LR.

April 14, 2025, 11:48 AM	#3
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,983	I don't have an official answer to your question. I can anecdotally report that I reload almost exclusively with Berry's plated bullets. I have shot my .45 Colt reloads through both a Howell's conversion cylinder and a Kirst Konverter cylinder with no apparent damage to me or the guns. My reloads are a bit milder than yours though -- around 750 fps. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

April 14, 2025, 12:23 PM	#4
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,329	I load plated same as lead Plated bullets are not jacketed. They behave like cast lead. Berry's warns to limit the velocity of their plated bullets, or perhaps they used to. Been a while since I have loaded any pistol ammo, been shooting .22 and 9mm lately. I've loaded a lot of plated bullets, they behave like lead. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

April 20, 2025, 03:48 PM	#22
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	This, Hawg, is not for the bolt. Edit to add, the conversions I've seen for the 1860/1851, modern ones, have the smaller fake chamber. I haven't bought one yet, but it's on the list for my 1860. Last edited by armoredman; April 20, 2025 at 03:59 PM.

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April 14, 2025, 08:01 AM	#2
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	In case anyone wants to know, I did email the company with so far no response. I ask this question because it seems many of the brands of .45LC practice rounds use plated bullets.

April 14, 2025, 02:43 PM	#5
Throckmorton Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: Washougal,Wa Posts: 145	plated and jacketed not the same ,plated are just prettier for the most part,and use cast lead data

April 14, 2025, 09:15 PM	#6
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,052	So which is it? You mentioned 44LC in your first post, then 45LC in your second post. By the way, there is no such thing as 44LC (44 Long Colt). 45LC, usually refers to 45 Long Colt. There is also no such thing, despite what some boxes of ammo say, the official SAMMI name for the cartridge is simply 45 Colt. Study this photo. It is of an antique Colt Richards Conversion. Pictured with the revolver are 4 antique 44 Colt cartridges. This was a cartridge developed for these conversion revolvers. Notice the bullets are the same diameter as the cartridge cases. This cartridge was developed specifically for this revolver. The bullets were .451 diameter, as were the cartridge cases. The bullets were 'heeled' meaning the rear were slightly smaller diameter, allowing the bullets to seat in the cases, but as I said, both were the same diameter. Just like modern 22 Rimfire ammunition. Study this photo. These are all 45 Colt cartridges. Most of them are quite old, except the one all the way on the right, which is one of my reloads. Notice, unlike the 44 Colt cartridges, ALL the bullets are the same diameter as the INSIDE of the cases. All modern cartridges (except 22 Rimfire ) are made that way, with the bullet seated INSIDE the case. Anyway, using velocity to define safe ammunition is misleading. It is PRESSURE that causes a revolver cylinder to burst, not velocity. It is easy to duplicate velocity in handloads with widely varying pressures. Here is my old EuroArms 1858 Remington with the R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinder that I bought for it over 20 years ago. Maximum SAAMI pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi. However ammunition sold as Cowboy Ammunition will be loaded down slightly and develop less pressure. Your Howell conversion cylinder should be completely safe to shoot with 45 Colt Cowboy loads. Be sure they have lead bullets.

April 14, 2025, 10:41 PM	#7
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	I've been using a Howell on my Uberti New Model Army for a while, and I have yet to shoot anything but my own cast reloads. I can tell you when I used to use Berrys that they do say use cast data. You should be fine as long as you stay under the velocity limits.

April 15, 2025, 10:42 AM	#9
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	"So which is it? You mentioned 44LC in your first post, then 45LC in your second post. By the way, there is no such thing as 44LC (44 Long Colt). 45LC, usually refers to 45 Long Colt. There is also no such thing, despite what some boxes of ammo say, the official SAMMI name for the cartridge is simply 45 Colt." Well, just excuse my fat fingers. Pretty sure everone knows what I was talking about.

April 15, 2025, 11:22 AM	#10
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,052	The old 44 Colt cartridge was designed to be chambered in the cylinder of a Colt Richards Conversion. The cylinders for these were cut down from 44 caliber Colt 1860 Army revolvers. A breech plate was added to the frame of a standard 1860 Army revolver. The breech plate included a loading gate so the revolver could be loaded without dismantling it. The breech plate also included a firing pin which can barely be seen in this photo, and the hammer was reshaped with a flat face to strike the firing pin. Because the breech plate occupied space in the frame, the cylinders were cut down to make room for them. This photo shows the Richards Conversion cylinder on the right, with a replica 1860 Army cylinder on the left. This photo shows how the nipple area of the Cap & Ball revolvers was machined away and a new set of ratchet teeth cut into the cylinder. Two of the original cartridges are sitting in the chambers of the Richards Conversion cylinder. The 44 Colt cartridge was designed to be used in the cut down cylinders of the Cap & Ball revolvers. The bullet was the same diameter as the round balls used in the C&B revolvers, about .451. The case was designed to fit into the cylinders, with an OD around .451 or so. These numbers are from memory, I don't have the revolver or ammo in hand right now. Because the bullet and the case shared the same OD, a heeled bullet was needed. I bought a mold for a 44 Colt heeled bullet from Old West Bullet Molds a few years ago. At the left in this photo is one of my original 44 Colt cartridges. Note the tiny rim. Note how the bullet is the same OD as the case. I ordered some 44 Colt brass from Starline a few years ago. So next to the original 44 Colt cartridge is an empty Starline 44 Colt case. Then a Starline 44 Colt loaded with a heeled bullet from my Old West Bullet Mold. All the way on the right is a modern 44 Special cartridge. Note the 44 Special case is slightly smaller in diameter than the 44 Colt case, and the bullet is seated INSIDE the case as with all other modern cartridges. This photo shows some of the cast bullets and some loaded rounds. On the left is a Starline 44 Colt case, and another case with one of the Old West bullets seated. I discovered that 44 Russian brass also fits the chambers perfectly. I decided to load my '44 Colt/Russian' rounds into 44 Russian brass because I wanted less powder in the case, so as not to stress the cylinder, which is over 150 years old.

April 15, 2025, 11:28 AM	#11
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,052	"Well, just excuse my fat fingers. Pretty sure everone knows what I was talking about." I asked because at one point, one of the conversion cylinder manufacturers was also making a cylinder for 44 Colt. This is the modern 44 Colt cartridge which uses a .429 or so bullet, and is not suitable for an 1858 Remington. 44 caliber is actually a bit of a misnomer with the old C&B revolvers. "44" referred to the diameter the barrel was originally bored, or drilled. Then rifling was cut, making most of the old '44' caliber Cap & Ball revolvers actually 45 caliber. Just the old fashioned way of calling out the caliber.

April 15, 2025, 10:16 PM	#12
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	Thank you for the detailed explanations and the pics - learn something new every day.

April 16, 2025, 01:53 PM	#13
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	Just got the 45colt practice ammunition I ordered in. The box is labeled 850fps This seems to be in line with many brands of Cowboy loads I have seen. That is the limit that the email response I got from Howell this morning stated as safe for this conversion. Many have stated that loading tables recommend using lead bullet loads for plated bullets also. I feel these should be safe to use.

April 16, 2025, 09:26 PM	#14
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	Enjoy is good health, sir.

April 19, 2025, 03:40 PM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,367	The pics on Howell's site show the extra notch.

April 19, 2025, 09:41 PM	#17
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	Mine has the safety notch - the hammer is too wide to fit in it, so it only gets loaded with 5 rounds if I was going to carry it, which I haven't yet. On the line it gets loaded with 6.

April 20, 2025, 06:32 AM	#19
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	Yes, I saw it on the website. I was just kinda curious if they always did that because none of the youtube videos I have seen mention it. I must say that the Howell conversion cylinder fits really good. No excessive tolerances anywhere. Good lock-up and close cylinder gap. Polish on the cylinder is not as good as it is on the gun, but it's acceptable.

April 20, 2025, 01:58 PM	#21
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	Mine is for the Pietta Remington. It is six shot but only has one safety notch on the cylinder.

April 21, 2025, 07:16 AM	#24
Hdonly Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 356	That is not a notch for the hammer. That is the hole drilled through the backplate for the alignment pin.

April 21, 2025, 06:18 PM	#25
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,472	Ah, I misread a few things. I went to the box the cylinder came in and IT says, "In six shot conversion units, load only five rounds and let the hammer rest on the EMPTY sixth chamber. In the five shot conversion units there are ten cylinder stop notches. Five of these notches are set between the chambers and designed to be used to lock the cylinder out of battery and allow you to safely lower the hammer fully down between the loaded chambers for use in the popular 'Cowboy Action, (SASS) type matches." Emphasis in the original. So, I was wrong, and it was never meant for that, copy that. But it could be machined out slightly larger at the top of the hole to do exactly that.