Single action mechanism

[frankie viljoen]

I have another question which do not relate to the single action mechanism but to my experience in shooting the single action.

When I use a laser cartridge I am sort of accurate with it and it seems that I have the sights figured out but when I fire live rounds using the sights as I think I should it is way high and all over the place, maybe more to the right.

I did get a good group once but it was off the ring but still on the paper at the top right. I aimed at the bottom of the target, center, at about 10 or 15 meters.
I only shot the gun twice, 20 rounds each time. Obviously I need more practice

[Shoots Left]

For one thing fixed sights are what they are. True zero is not necessarily a thing.

The other thing I would suggest is to invest the $75 or whatever for a half hour one-on-one with a handgun instructor to teach you the proper mechanics of shooting.

That's a good investment for new shooters IMO.

[JohnKSa]

When I use a laser cartridge I am sort of accurate with it and it seems that I have the sights figured out but when I fire live rounds using the sights as I think I should it is way high and all over the place, maybe more to the right.

There are two things going on here.

1. Anticipating the shot/flinching is an extremely common problem with pistol shooting. The brain is highly opposed to loud noises, flashes and abrupt movement right in front of the face and it tries very hard to protect itself and the eyes. It will cause the eyes to blink before the shot, it will also cause movement in the hands. I've been shooting for many years and I still have to practice to minimize this issue.

2. The gun begins recoiling the instant the bullet moves. In a revolver, this causes the muzzle to begin to rise the instant the bullet moves. By the time the bullet exits, the muzzle has risen enough to move the point of impact on the target higher. Careful measurements of the line of the sight and the line of the bore will reveal that in a revolver, the bore is pointed noticeably downward relative to the sights. The sights are, in other words, set up to deal with the expected muzzle rise. So before recoil begins, they point where the muzzle will be pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle. What happens is that before the bullet exits, the muzzle comes up enough from recoil to put the bullet on target. When using the laser cartridge, there is no recoil and so the laser will hit lower on the target than the bullets will.

The larger groups than expected are due to flinching. The higher impact on target, as compared to when using the laser cartridge, is due to the muzzle rise from recoil. Both are, in one sense or another due to recoil. You can't really fix the muzzle rise issue, but practice will help with the group issue.

Welcome to the world of pistol shooting.

[Hawg]

What he said ^^^^ Fixed sights are more of a suggestion. It's up to you to decide how much to hold off to put it on target. Many people can't abide by that and do everything they can to make it shoot to POA. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. If it bothers you then sell it and get something with adjustable sights. I have guns with adjustable sights and I've never adjusted them. I'm just used to holding off to hit what I want. It's just second nature to me.

[Jim Watson]

When I got into SASS, targets were often farther away than they are now, you had to aim and I was not interested in that podunk windage stuff. I was lucky, my Colt .44 Special 7.5" shot where it looked. It even shot .44 WCF to the sights when I got a cylinder to use the same ammo as my rifle. But when I wanted to play gunslinger and put on a 4.75" barrel, the points of impact diverged, the new sights being on with Specials but not WCF. I managed it by loading .44 WCF with 240 gr bullets.
I realized I was not hitting as well with the shorter sight radius and rearward balance, so I had the 7.5" put back on. I shot mostly .44 WCF for commonality with the Winchester, but for practice, loading Specials was easier.

In the meanwhile, SASS had increased the round count so you had to have two revolvers. No Colts turned up to trade another automatic for, so I bought a Cimarron import.
It was less accommodating, throwing left like so many SAAs. I attended my gunsmith. Step 1, he milled the rear V notch square, biasing the cut to the right. That didn't correct it so step 2 was torquing the barrel. That fixed it, but at the cost of a discernable lean to the front sight. At least elevation was OK, so he didn't have to cut down the blade.

[44 AMP]

Fixed sights are more of a suggestion.

They're a bit more than that, at least on a quality firearm, but they are only "perfectly on target" for one load, at one distance.

They're generally close with more than one load, but its not guaranteed.

The real problem I have with fixed sights is simply that, often, the load and distance they are regulated for is not what I'm shooting.

All my SA's are Rugers, and while I did have a collection of Vaqueros, I sold them off a few years ago. I have Blackhawks, Super Blackhawk and s Super Single Six. All have factory adjustable sights. While I rarely adjust the sights, I really enjoy, and prefer the ability to do so, if I have a need.

With fixed sights, you have to either find and shoot the ammo that shoots to the sights, learn and use the right amount of "hold off" if you can't find ammo that shoots to the sights, or permanently modify the gun to "adjust" the sights to the ammo you have and want to use.

As a handloader, I have lots of options to use finding a load that shoots to the fixed sights, and can usually find something that will, however, that load might not be what I want to use. Usually, what I do is use the load I want, and learn where to hold off, to be on target. I am against modifying the gun, for a few reasons, one of which is because its usually a permanent change.

Adjustable sights avoid all such issues, and are especially a good thing to have on a rimfire.

Historically, fixed sights have been regulated at the factory, for the standard bullet weight and speed of the caliber, and in the US the usual distance was 25 yards.

Back in the black powder days, when there was only one factory loaded bullet weight and velocity for most pistol rounds, fixed sights were nearly always "on" and were more than adequate and vastly more robust and rugged than the few examples of adjustable sights available back then.

Now, with all the different bullet weights and speeds in common use today, and the modern adjustable sights available, I don't think fixed sights have the utility they once did.

[Name of One Who Uses]

Fixed sights work quite well on well-built revolvers. Most issues with POI, at least where windage is concerned, are simply because most shooters don't know how to properly hold and shoot SA revolvers. There's much, much more to shooting SA's straight than lining up the sights and squeezing the trigger. As to vertical dispersion, this is easily addressed by choosing one weight or at least small weight range of bullets, and sticking with it. My first SA was/is an older 4 3/4" Uberti 44 WCF to which I fitted a .44 Special cylinder. I found that if I shot only bullets in the 245-255 gr. range that I had to worry very little with trajectory. I regulated the front sight so that my 245 gr. RN loafing along at ~750 fps (small game load) shot POA at 25 yds. and my hunting load of a 255 gr. SWC running 950-1000 fps would be just about "on" at 50 yds. and a few inches low at 75.

As to the OP's problem, it sounds as though your friend, and I use that term very loosely, may have pulled the trigger while the hammer was in the safe-cock position. This likely would've either broken the tip off the hammer of the safe position or damaged or broken the tip of the trigger sear.
SA revolvers such as these are very simple and easy to disassemble/reassemble if you're ever interested in the inner works.

[frankie viljoen]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

There are two things going on here.

1. Anticipating the shot/flinching is an extremely common problem with pistol shooting. The brain is highly opposed to loud noises, flashes and abrupt movement right in front of the face and it tries very hard to protect itself and the eyes. It will cause the eyes to blink before the shot, it will also cause movement in the hands. I've been shooting for many years and I still have to practice to minimize this issue.

2. The gun begins recoiling the instant the bullet moves. In a revolver, this causes the muzzle to begin to rise the instant the bullet moves. By the time the bullet exits, the muzzle has risen enough to move the point of impact on the target higher. Careful measurements of the line of the sight and the line of the bore will reveal that in a revolver, the bore is pointed noticeably downward relative to the sights. The sights are, in other words, set up to deal with the expected muzzle rise. So before recoil begins, they point where the muzzle will be pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle. What happens is that before the bullet exits, the muzzle comes up enough from recoil to put the bullet on target. When using the laser cartridge, there is no recoil and so the laser will hit lower on the target than the bullets will.

The larger groups than expected are due to flinching. The higher impact on target, as compared to when using the laser cartridge, is due to the muzzle rise from recoil. Both are, in one sense or another due to recoil. You can't really fix the muzzle rise issue, but practice will help with the group issue.

Welcome to the world of pistol shooting.

I do flinch. Firing on an empty chamber once, expecting the round to go off pointed that out to me. There is a difference between 9 mm and 45 Colt.
I think I will try a Russian Roulette method and see if that will help with the flinching?
I was using 185 grain ammo, that was all that was available to me. I have 230 grain bullets but still have to load them. I would also like to try 250 grain bullets if I can get hold of it.

[frankie viljoen]

Originally Posted by Hawg

What he said ^^^^ Fixed sights are more of a suggestion. It's up to you to decide how much to hold off to put it on target. Many people can't abide by that and do everything they can to make it shoot to POA. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. If it bothers you then sell it and get something with adjustable sights. I have guns with adjustable sights and I've never adjusted them. I'm just used to holding off to hit what I want. It's just second nature to me.

I would like to practice some more with the single action. Even though I do not shoot it well, I still like it. At this stage.
If I do sell it I might go for a double action revolver with adjustable sights.

[JohnKSa]

The Russian Roulette/Ball and Dummy drill is useful for detecting flinch. A lot of people have a hard time believing that they are anticipating the shot and reacting. I've convinced a number of folks they have that issue by loading a dummy round, or by leaving a revolver chamber empty without the shooter knowing.

I don't know how useful it is in terms of actually reducing the anticipation, but it will certainly let you know if you are having issues with it.

There are a number of ways people use to deal with flinch. You don't have to use all of them, some will find that one technique works well while others don't, some may find that all have some value, some may find that a few of the techniques are valuable to them.

These are listed in no particular order.

• Good hearing protection. Some people are more sensitive to noise than others and the discharge noise can be a significant part of the whole "experience". Keeping the noise level down makes it a better experience overall and that can help with flinch. At indoor ranges I use foam earplugs and then ear muffs so I get a double effect.
• Good eye protection. I think some people feel more comfortable when they know they are wearing good eye protection.
• Try to shoot in a relaxing environment. Shooting in an indoor range while folks in the next lane are touching off massive explosions from their .500 SuperMagnum is going to make this whole process more difficult.
• Shooting with lighter calibers or airguns to help get the brain used to the idea that shooting a pistol doesn't always have to be a traumatic/explosive event.
• Dry-firing. Shooting without ammunition (as you are doing with your laser training) to accomplish the same purpose as #2. This will also help you develop good trigger technique and strengthen your finger.
• Speaking during shooting to "distract" the brain by giving it a task to do other than anticipating the shot. Some people will say something like "Front sight, front sight..." to help them focus on the front sight and to accomplish the "distraction" task.
• Shooting to a cadence. This is similar to #4, but adds a timing aspect into the equation to help avoid the situation where the brain becomes increasingly "nervous" about the shot breaking that can arise when a person aims for a long time waiting for a perfect shot. In this, the shooter will verbally or mentally say something like: "Gun up, sights aligned, trigger engaged, fire." while going through the accompanying motions.
• Focusing on the front sight, on trying to see it during recoil and recoil recovery, and on seeing the muzzle flash if conditions are such that it will be visible. This can work for some people.
• Being careful to keep shooting sessions to a reasonable length. The heavier the recoil, the shorter the shooting session should be. Particularly if the recoil is unpleasant or painful, you don't want to stretch the shooting session too long--you're just reinforcing your brain's already strongly held belief that the activity is bad by causing discomfort/pain over a long period. This whole process is about conditioning your brain to accept the activity as harmless and enjoyable. Finish up your range session with something that doesn't have a lot of recoil and is pleasant to shoot.
• Stop and take a short break if you want to shoot longer but you can feel that you are starting to have flinching problems. You can dryfire during this break to help calm the flinch reflex.

[Ricklin]

Excellent treatise on a tough subject. A flinch can be a very challenging thing. I made the mistake of shooting a lot of trap with a gun that did not fit me well. I could shoot pretty well and even broke 25 a couple times. What could I not do? Shoot more than 3 rounds of practice!! By the 4th round I was flinching badly, that's rounds 75-100 and is about a normal practice session for seriously shooting trap. Our subconscious will protect our body from repetitive injury 75-100 rounds of 12 gauge with a gun that does not fit well will produce a flinch.
I've since put that issue to bed, my trap single is well fitted and ported, my SX1 is a real pussycat too one ounce trap loads are just enough to get it to run. I quit shooting trap for a couple years, getting back in to it now. 100 rounds of practice a week gets costly.

[JohnKSa]

Good point--gun fit is important.

I have a pistol that I consider very enjoyable to shoot. The recoil is mild, the trigger is good, the gun is accurate.

I let a female friend shoot it and she immediately complained that the recoil was painful. The grip turned out to be too large for her and so she was "cheating" her hand around on the grip to reach the trigger. The result was that the recoil, mild though it might be, was driving the grip into the main knuckle of her thumb right where a blood vessel and nerve was located. The blood vessel ruptured and the nerve complained.

That gun was not a good gun for her, however much I liked it. Had she continued to use it, I have no doubt she would have either developed a flinch, or worsened any existing flinch.