What's your ideal 10mm Auto?

[RickB]

It's a dream gun thread as I basically asked in the first post

There's a video on youtube of a one-off, factory built CZ combining the large frame of the 97 with a SP01 slide, chambered in 10mm.
It looks really nice, but who knows what type loads they were shooting, etc.

I've handled a Tangfoglio Witness Stock II in .38 Super, which is/was also available in 10mm, and it was very nice in fit and finish, but I didn't get a chance to shoot it.

I suppose I'm still dreaming of a Ben Ten that can actually be shot, but haven't conceded that it's going to be in the form of a CZ derivative.

[agtman]

There's a video on youtube of a one-off, factory built CZ combining the large frame of the 97 with a SP01 slide, chambered in 10mm.
It looks really nice, but who knows what type loads they were shooting, etc.

You mean this one? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iIK6cFPevmE

Yeah, I'm not sure why CZ offered this 'teaser' but then never followed through with production when other makers (e.g., Sig, GrandPower) began offering non-1911 10mms. And especially since CZ's Q.C. in building a 10mm '97'-pattern pistol would no doubt be heads-above the hit-or-miss Q.C. of Tanfoglio's Witnesses.

Better still, you wouldn't have to deal with EAA for warranty service.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

COSteve, the last thing I'm going to use a longslide 10mm for is concealed carry, so overall size is irrelevant. Besides, the Glock 20/21's have the standard Glock triggers, the 40 has the the lighter connector to reduce the pull weight.

My Glocks got a new Lone Wolf Distributor's 3.5lb connector and a 6lb competition trigger spring (stock is 5lb but because the spring works with the trigger pull it makes it lighter and takes up all the slack) back in 2005 as soon as I found out about them. All of my Glock's triggers are nicer than a stock G40s as they've each been tuned.

You can get their Ultimate Trigger kit (3 different connectors and the 6lb spring) for $29 and tune your Glock's trigger safely. It's simple, easy, totally reversible, and works wonders producing a custom trigger approaching the feel of a 1911's (Yep, got 2 of them myself too). Check it out HERE.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

AFAIK, the only 10MM currently manufactured that was specifically designed right from the factory to handle the high pressure of the original Bren-10 ammo is the Glock 20.

My ideal 10mm, would be a Glock 20 with 6 1/2 inch Bar-Sto barrel threaded for a comp, and extended 20 round magazine.

I'd recommend you give KKM precision's long 10mm barrels a look instead. You'll find them, including a 6½" threaded one HERE.

When I was developing my G20/21L back in 2004, I asked Bar-Sto to make me a custom 6" 45-10MM conversion barrel before I discovered Kevin at KKM. The owner of Bar-Sto told me "They'd never work and they'd never sell." and said he wasn't interested in my business.

I proved him dead wrong a few months later and he had to eat his words because of the success of my G20L. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding was when he decided he needed to start making making them himself after all the publicity I started back then with mine on Glocktalk and the brisk sales KKM was doing. (Sadly, Kevin, owner of KKM was killed a few years ago in a motorcycle accident.)

Currently, I have +2 extensions on my mags so I have 17+1 rds of hot 10mm as you can see in the last picture in my post #25 above. BTW, it's now 14 years and over 9,000 rds of hot 10mm ammo through custom my Glock and it still runs like a top. I now use the Jarvis 6" 45 barrel to shoot 45 Super in it too.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

AFAIK, the only 10MM currently manufactured that was specifically designed right from the factory to handle the high pressure of the original Bren-10 ammo is the Glock 20.

My ideal 10mm, would be a Glock 20 with 6 1/2 inch Bar-Sto barrel threaded for a comp, and extended 20 round magazine.

The Dan Wesson Razorbacks were specifically designed for the 10mm as well. There were several folks involved and Dan Wesson made it based on the 1911Forum's group of 10mm fans. I don't know what has changed since CZ bought DW though. Mine has close to 20K through it, almost all full power loads. Changed the springs, still groups well and it is still tight.

[Ben Dover]

Thanks, Steve.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

The Dan Wesson Razorbacks were specifically designed for the 10mm as well. There were several folks involved and Dan Wesson made it based on the 1911Forum's group of 10mm fans. I don't know what has changed since CZ bought DW though. Mine has close to 20K through it, almost all full power loads. Changed the springs, still groups well and it is still tight.

Beautiful guns that work well, however, like all steel guns, they don't flex and absorb some of the sharpness of the recoil like the Glocks do. In addition, the large frame Glock's wider backstrap also spreads out the recoil through a larger contact path in your hand.

I really notice the difference shooting the same 45acp handloads through my G21L and then through one of my Springfield 1911s. The recoil in the steel framed 1911 is harsh while it's considerably smoother and less pronounced in the Glock. Not a problem shooting 45acp in either but I imagine that shooting my 45 Super in a steel 1911 wouldn't be enjoyable as even my 200grn loads have a considerably higher recoil than even my 'nuclear' 165grn 10mm loads.

[Areoflyer09]

Originally Posted by COSteve

Beautiful guns that work well, however, like all steel guns, they don't flex and absorb some of the sharpness of the recoil like the Glocks do. In addition, the large frame Glock's wider backstrap also spreads out the recoil through a larger contact path in your hand.

I really notice the difference shooting the same 45acp handloads through my G21L and then through one of my Springfield 1911s. The recoil in the steel framed 1911 is harsh while it's considerably smoother and less pronounced in the Glock. Not a problem shooting 45acp in either but I imagine that shooting my 45 Super in a steel 1911 wouldn't be enjoyable as even my 200grn loads have a considerably higher recoil than even my 'nuclear' 165grn 10mm loads.

Recoil is a very personal thing. There isn’t a magic answer that platform that everyone agrees is right for recoil. Some will prefer Glocks, others 1911s and someone else will prefer something else.

I’ve yet to shoot a Glock in any caliber that felt better in recoil than the same caliber in a steel frame, but Glocks are the least comfortable pistol for me. I can shoot them, but recoil always feel sharper for me. The shape of the grip is my issue. I can work around the size, but the square shape is my issue. Hot loads in a 1911 for very comfortable for me, but I don’t find myself fighting the shape of a 1911 grip as much.

[smee78]

For me its the S&W 10XX series that are my favorites and closest to a dream 10mm. Now as a dream gun lets do a gun like the 3rd gen series but have replaceable grip panels like a 1911 style pistol and give it a cap of 12ish rounds.

[robert1804]

I shoot 10mm as range toys, just for fun and something different.I've tried G20 and G40 Glocks and sold them. Good guns for somebody else, I never could shoot them well. I'm keeping my Ruger SR 1911 10mm. It's reliable, accurate and fairly easy to shoot well. I already have my dream gun in 10mm. It's a Lipsey's Sig P220 Elite SAO 10mm. It's the all black Nitron with an adjustable sight. It has a good trigger, great sights, is totally reliable and has excellent accuracy. It's heavy (all steel) and just blots up the recoil of the hottest ammo. It's really easy to shoot well.

[jrog]

Smith and Wesson, 1006!

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Areoflyer09

Recoil is a very personal thing. There isn’t a magic answer that platform that everyone agrees is right for recoil. Some will prefer Glocks, others 1911s and someone else will prefer something else.

I’ve yet to shoot a Glock in any caliber that felt better in recoil than the same caliber in a steel frame, but Glocks are the least comfortable pistol for me. I can shoot them, but recoil always feel sharper for me. The shape of the grip is my issue. I can work around the size, but the square shape is my issue. Hot loads in a 1911 for very comfortable for me, but I don’t find myself fighting the shape of a 1911 grip as much.

Interesting comments. Most consider that the wider backstrap of the Glock spreads the recoil impulse over a wider area and that added to the flexible nature of the frame, produces a softer felt recoil. Not doubting your experience as the one thing I've learned is that hand shape and perception give us different opinions on pistols.

For me, a person with a large palm and long, thin fingers even though I'm only 5'9", I had trouble when I was young gripping a 1911 securely. In the Army, I had a terrible time qualifying with it as it slipped in my hands a lot. For my hand size and shape, the Glock's thicker grip is the answer while for those with shorter, thicker fingers it may not be. Lucky for me, as I grew older, I got a bit more meat on my hands and can now grip the 1911s well enough to enjoy them.

As I shoot 1911s and Glocks, I noted that their grip angle is actually the same on the front strap. The difference is the deeper cutout at the top of the grip in back where the web of your hand grips it. This caused me to present muzzle high with the Glock after I'd shot my 1911s for a while. The fix was to add a Grip Force Adaptor to the backstrap. It fills in the deep cutout so that the grip angle in back is the same as a 1911 as well as lengthens the distance to the trigger, giving me a better trigger feel.

The picture in the post above shows my G20/21L before I added the Grip Force Adapter. In the picture below, you can see the top of it just over my hand with the groves on the beavertail. It's made a significant improvement in my shooting both platforms as I can now switch at will and do well with both. With it on my G20/21L, and a Hogue Handall on top of it, my fingers are so long that I can still stretch my thumb and touch the 1st knuckle of my middle finger with my thumb (a sign of a good fitting grip).

[Areoflyer09]

Originally Posted by COSteve

Interesting comments. Most consider that the wider backstrap of the Glock spreads the recoil impulse over a wider area and that added to the flexible nature of the frame, produces a softer felt recoil. Not doubting your experience as the one thing I've learned is that hand shape and perception give us different opinions on pistols.

For me, a person with a large palm and long, thin fingers even though I'm only 5'9", I had trouble when I was young gripping a 1911 securely. In the Army, I had a terrible time qualifying with it as it slipped in my hands a lot. For my hand size and shape, the Glock's thicker grip is the answer while for those with shorter, thicker fingers it may not be. Lucky for me, as I grew older, I got a bit more meat on my hands and can now grip the 1911s well enough to enjoy them.

As I shoot 1911s and Glocks, I noted that their grip angle is actually the same on the front strap. The difference is the deeper cutout at the top of the grip in back where the web of your hand grips it. This caused me to present muzzle high with the Glock after I'd shot my 1911s for a while. The fix was to add a Grip Force Adaptor to the backstrap. It fills in the deep cutout so that the grip angle in back is the same as a 1911 as well as lengthens the distance to the trigger, giving me a better trigger feel.

The picture in the post above shows my G20/21L before I added the Grip Force Adapter. In the picture below, you can see the top of it just over my hand with the groves on the beavertail. It's made a significant improvement in my shooting both platforms as I can now switch at will and do well with both. With it on my G20/21L, and a Hogue Handall on top of it, my fingers are so long that I can still stretch my thumb and touch the 1st knuckle of my middle finger with my thumb (a sign of a good fitting grip).

Hand shape and size creates interesting variations in perceived recoil.

I don’t have quite large enough palms/fingers to comfortably keep my palm as flat as it should be and get my fingers to the proper places at the same time, more of a one or the other. The Glock grip shape makes my hand feel I’m stretching it’s where other “large” frame pistols don’t. I have no issues with my Tanfoglios, which aren’t small, but they are rounded more on the edges creating a less square shape. The more square like shape of the Glock puts the felt recoil more on the back two corners than spread out through the entries back. I have opposite issue with the Walther PPS, that out all of its recoil into a narrow band down the center of the grip. What we each perceive is uniquely different and reminds me that humans are a strange group.

I’ve shot Glocks in 9/40/10mm and I’ve never been comfortable with them. I can shoot them and I can force my self to be competent with them, but it’s not a natural fit for me so I’m working harder to achieve the same result I have with other options. Despite my best efforts to want a 29SF, I know myself well enough that I’ll be frustrated by it and end selling it.

[JP_Quixote]

The thing I haven't seen much comment on is the OP's mention of the carbine element.

I'm a fan of Glocks myself, but the best matching carbine can be adjusted to match different makes: An AR-based direct impingement 10mm upper is *boss.* 10mm is a powerful round for blowback operation, but DI handles 10mm well, and an DI AR upper can be matched with a lower that has been machined to match your handgun's magazines, like New Frontier Armory's glock-compatible lowers, or with a stock AR-15 lower using a mag well insert designed for the brand of magazine in which you're interested.

If you research the ballistics of 10mm, you'll find a 16" carbine gets maximum performance out of the 10mm cartridge, and is basically a 200m shooter, while being a little longer than really necessary. A 12 or 13 inch barrel gets about 90% of the energy out of the cartridge, and is an *awesome* AR-pistol, using a pistol brace, easily good for 150+ meters.

.357 SIG makes for another nice pistol-carbine pairing, as does 9x25 Dillon if you are o.k. with a wildcat. That will shoot flatter than 10mm, and work well for 2-legged critters, body armor, or deer, while 10mm is better for hunting, barrier penetration, and ammunition availabilty.

[Chaparral]

I own a Colt Delta Elite and a Glock 20 SF. As I get older (already old) I see myself wanting to take the Glock to shoot over the Colt. I love the Colt, but the 1911 in 10 mm seems to have a bit more snap on my wrist and it hurts for a couple of days. The Glock recoils milder it seems to me. I love the 10 mm and I know I need to probably let them go but I can't bring myself to do it yet. Maybe my pride?