Four deputies refuse to make entry into school

[OzeanJaeger]

I hear a lot of talk about "training", and I've certainly had my fair share on Uncle Stupid's dime. I'm middle aged now. I get training because firearms are a hobby and it's fun. But, I'm just not following... Are we sending everyone through the SEAL CQB trainer, teaching shoot houses, or the USS Boarding Party trainer? Which school shooting in the modern era required a special warfare team to rectify? Are they learning stack and hack with MP5s? Are we going to be fighting Spetnaz in the school halls?

Who thinks it's the gun and not the hand that it's in? Why are we even discussing this on the terms of the gun grabbers who probably have never even held one much less had any "training"? As if the firearm or "training" were some talisman! Both are good, but a person with a .22 and willing heart is obviously worth 100 trained deputies who get behind their cars and decline to go.

Maybe I'm just not as smart as all the talking heads repeating this word, "training", because if I'm near my kids school and hear gunfire and screaming I don't need any training to know that I have to get in there and put down goblins as fast as I possibly can. I don't care if it's a jihadi with an AK, a 19 y/o with an AR, or a Spetsnaz on a Dishka; with my bear hands if I have to no regrets. If you want to stop me you had better but some bullets in me fast, because I'm not stopping. I am 100% certain of this no chest thumpery needed. Now, if it was your kids school I'd like to believe I'd do the same. I don't believe I could live with myself if I didn't, but if my kid is in there there's nothing to think about, and no repercussion that moves my meter. My life is worthless next to my boy's, and I would hope I would feel the same way about my students if I was a teacher. There is no question some did and revealed who they were to God and to all of us.

By my reckoning it's pretty darn easy to be a hero when there are children being murdered within earshot. I'd rather be dead than have stood by. To me this is truth, and if you can't make a policy around the truth and reality then you're an idiot.

[Lohman446]

By my reckoning it's pretty darn easy to be a hero when there are children being murdered within earshot. I'd rather be dead than have stood by

I am firmly in the "not my circus not my monkeys" in regards to citizen intervention of an ongoing criminal act. Violence against children and those who cannot be expected to defend themselves is where even I draw the line and make an exception.

[berettaprofessor]

He’s on the side that has the moral high ground, he will be sheriff until his term is up and will probably get re-elected.

Correction: He's on the side that THINKS they have the moral high ground. Unfortunately, their high ground is being loweredeach minute that it is associated with the weasel.

[TDL]

for those saying the officers have a legal duty to, this is complicated since obviously they also are released from this if hey are in mortal danger, and I believe the case law is that they do not have to risk injury. Now sure they can still be fired in some cases, if they don't follow policy, but they are not required to put themselves in mortal danger. It is not the military.

I think the much bigger failure in this case were before the shooting, with local law enforcement and FBi headquarters having concrete and actionable information. Their actions before this occurred, were incredibly incompetent.


But I would say the more important point to keep in mind is that we need to avoid looking at specific cases since:
a) all of them have different sets of circumstances and all of different sets or weights of variables or measures that would reduce risk of occurrence.
b) they are statistically trivial in homicide. (now sure you can't say that without a backlash, but it is a fact).

The issue with police in schools, armed guards in Schools, or trained and armed staff where being armed would be secondary, is not a binary of success=total prevention of violence in schools, or not, but questions of reduction and deterrence. I will go with the data.. When one looks at equal demographic schools with similar local area violent crime rates, armed personnel at schools result in less assault's, aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults and homicides in the school.

When the NRA made the suggestion after Sandy Hook, NRA was mocked by media and gun lobby using stats that compared police presence in schools in places like Compton to 90210 type schools with no armed personnel. That is a ludicrous comparison. comparisons of similar crime rate areas show armed personnel they do reduce crime.

We also ought to consider, and this is utterly lost in the discussion, that homicide rate of school age children in the US has not been lower in 40 years. Despite some of us felling like murder of kids is up due to wall to wall, if it bleeds it leads coverage , it is down to half of the rate of 25 years ago.

[lamarw]

Law Enforcement Oath of Honor

On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust.

I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.

I will always uphold the constitution, my community, and the agency I serve.


International Association of Chiefs of Police

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by lamarw

Law Enforcement Oath of Honor

On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust.

I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.

I will always uphold the constitution, my community, and the agency I serve.


International Association of Chiefs of Police

The IACP is a membership organization. That "oath" is their advertising slogan, just like "To Serve and Protect" on the sides of many patrol vehicles. That's not the oath of office that LEOs swear when being handed their badge.

[WyMark]

Good to know that "To Serve and Protect" is just a marketing slogan. Presumably just to justify their taxpayer funded salaries.

And here I had always considered it more of a promise. I'm so naive.

[Jackpro555]

CNN always share pure and solid news. I like to read and hear them.

[OzeanJaeger]

TDL, I agree. If we go with the data how many of these mass shootings happen in a gun free zone? 100%? If some of them no longer wear the gun buster and legal CCW are armed inside I think we would get numbers that the antis can't abide.

We are not fighting people who care about school safety, or even the lives of children. Collectivists believe you have to break a few eggs in any event. We are fighting a goal, and disarming the American public is just a step, but it is a big one.

[Destructo6]

I hear a lot of talk about "training", and I've certainly had my fair share on Uncle Stupid's dime. I'm middle aged now. I get training because firearms are a hobby and it's fun. But, I'm just not following... Are we sending everyone through the SEAL CQB trainer, teaching shoot houses, or the USS Boarding Party trainer?

Different worlds, right? LE training tends to weigh risk vs reward as opposed to "accomplish the mission at all costs," like the military. This may result in taking a slow and methodical approach (wait for more people and more assets), when the more aggressive approach is better(go now with what you have).

Most Active Shooter programs are designed to help officers recognize the difference and respond by moving toward the "stimulus." They also incorporate basic movements with a team, a team that might be comprised of officers from different agencies, who rarely work together.

because if I'm near my kids school and hear gunfire and screaming I don't need any training to know that I have to get in there and put down goblins as fast as I possibly can. I don't care if it's a jihadi with an AK, a 19 y/o with an AR, or a Spetsnaz on a Dishka; with my bear hands if I have to no regrets.

I know what you mean, but there are counterpoints to every dude with a gun showing up. At the Beslan school siege, locals showed up with all sorts of small arms, making the Spetnaz's assault that more difficult because any movement inside the building, be it friend, foe, or hostage, attracted uncoordinated gunfire from the folks outside. "Terror at Beslan" is a horrifying book, if you haven't read it yet.

[rickyrick]

Funny how everyone against guns says that the military is highly trained and civilians are not capable of owning such weapons...

That’s a bunch of hooey, my dad taught me more about shooting pistols and semi auto rifles in an old caliche pit by the time I was 9 than I ever learned in the army...

Now I did learn a few things about running some machine guns that I didn’t learn as a kid. An inert claymore got the best of me in training once.

[NWPilgrim]

Originally Posted by WyMark

Good to know that "To Serve and Protect" is just a marketing slogan. Presumably just to justify their taxpayer funded salaries.

And here I had always considered it more of a promise. I'm so naive.

I understand from some various discussions that on the east coast deputies are not the same type of law enforcement officer as we have in the west. Out here the Sheriff and his deputies patrol the unincorporated areas in a county and usually have cooperation agreements with the city police forces within the county. On the East Coast they may be more just court bailiffs, summons deliverers, etc.

BUT, if you are not an active shooter responder then you should not be at an active shooter incident. If your job is not to engage active shooters then why are you wearing a gun? To me it is simple, if you wear a gun as a deputy and you are first to arrive at an active shooter school/mall incident then you have a duty to engage. If you believe you do not have such a duty then stay the heck away from the scene and let real LEOs do their job. And why are you wearing a gun anyway? If you are a county clerk's go-fer, then you don't need to be armed and you can call on the real police if need arises. They will be there in just minutes, sometimes.

And by the way BCSO, how do four deputies "secure the perimeter" of a high school with all four of them crouched behind the same patrol car? Would you like to tray for excuse #47?

[Mainah]

Here in Maine Sheriffs and their deputies are the primary source of law enforcement in most rural areas, and that’s most of the state.

[Hummer70]

Last night on TV they interviewed a Broward County Deputy that was apparently their union rep.

1. He said the radio traffic indicated a Supervisor told them to secure the area about ten minutes after the shooting started.

2. The deputies are being called Browards Cowards when they go in places to eat now.

3. The Sheriff is not releasing the radio traffic.

4. By the time the SWAT guys went in the kid was gone.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Mainah

Here in Maine Sheriffs and their deputies are the primary source of law enforcement in most rural areas, and that’s most of the state.

Really? Admittedly, I'm not from Maine, but until they died I spent all summer vacations with my grandparents in Maine, and after their deaths I spent most summer vacations in and around Acadia. I have never even heard the word "sheriff" mentioned, nor have I ever seen a sheriff's office vehicle. It never occurred to me that Maine eve had sheriffs.

I thought the state police were the primary law enforcement in areas that don't have their own police departments. Is that because I've always been in coastal areas, and the sheriffs are found more in the north woods areas?

[Aguila Blanca]

Last night on TV they interviewed a Broward County Deputy that was apparently their union rep.

1. He said the radio traffic indicated a Supervisor told them to secure the area about ten minutes after the shooting started.

2. The deputies are being called Browards Cowards when they go in places to eat now.

3. The Sheriff is not releasing the radio traffic.

4. By the time the SWAT guys went in the kid was gone.

Various reports put the length of time of the actual shooting at different numbers. I've seen reports that it lasted as little as 5 minutes. The longest I've seen reported so far is 7-1/2 minutes. Forget about SWAT -- if the stand-down order came 10 minutes after the shooting started, it was already over and the shooter was already gone when the order came. Of course, if they were on the outside they didn't know that, but what the heck? It's a school -- how many kids can even a poor, clumsy shooter kill in ten minutes? They should have already been in the building long before ten minutes elapsed. Especially Peterson.

[Mainah]

Really? Admittedly, I'm not from Maine, but until they died I spent all summer vacations with my grandparents in Maine, and after their deaths I spent most summer vacations in and around Acadia. I have never even heard the word "sheriff" mentioned, nor have I ever seen a sheriff's office vehicle. It never occurred to me that Maine eve had sheriffs.

I thought the state police were the primary law enforcement in areas that don't have their own police departments. Is that because I've always been in coastal areas, and the sheriffs are found more in the north woods areas?

I used to live in a rural town with no police force. The sheriff's office and the state troopers split patrol duty. I lived in Bar Harbor for years, pretty much all of the small towns on the island have their own forces. And there's plenty of territory in Hancock County for the deputies to patrol. County sheriff offices handle a lot of patrol work in Maine.

[manta49]

Are the police equipped with rifles, if not why not. ?

[Rangerrich99]

Originally Posted by manta49

Are the police equipped with rifles, if not why not. ?

The short answer is it depends on the city/county/whatever and their budget. Smaller depts may not have the budget to equip their officers with a rifle. Someone will likely supply a more detailed answer, but as I understand it budget limitations will dictate whether a department will issue rifles to their officers as much as any other concern.

[K_Mac]

manta49 all of the police in my area, including the local communities, Sheriff's deputies, and State police carry ARs in their patrol vehicles. I would guess this is true in most places, although I do not know if this is true in Boward county.

[adamBomb]

In the county next to mine, the sheriffs office has trained residents who live near the schools to assist in a school incident since they may be able to get to the school faster in the event of an emergency. The people have special shirts they wear and are alerted if there is an emergency and are allowed to go in and stop the shooter. I am not sure what the training entails and I don't have more info than this...

[Lohman446]

Police in this area are equipped with a long gun - normally a shotgun. Many also carry a personal long gun in the trunk in case they need it.

[T. O'Heir]

Cops waiting is why the École Polytechnique murders happened in Montreal. Reports at the time said the Montreal cops waited 30 minutes before going in. 28 people shot, 14 women killed.

[Lohman446]

Is it conceivable that they had some bit of information that the shooter may have exited the building and were simply securing it against reentry? Were they standing at the cars ignoring the sound of ongoing gunfire?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

Were they standing at the cars ignoring the sound of ongoing gunfire?

Peterson certainly did exactly that.

They could not have known the shooter had left. When the first officers went in, they were still being told where he was [supposed to be] in the building, because whoever was on the video monitors didn't know there was a 20-minute time delay.