Taurus 1911

[Benzene]

In view of my PRACTICAL experience with Taurus revolvers and semi-autos, I have been able to put aside empty, baseless rants. My PT 1911 SS {which I bought after a lot of checking - including with our resident experts} has been functioning flawlessly. It makes even me look like a good shooter.

I wonder what one would get for "more money" as far as functionality for MY purposes go. This weapon has been reliably putting what I want where I want.

Qwiks draw, I think your input here is valuable.

[rellascout]

In view of my PRACTICAL experience with Taurus revolvers and semi-autos, I have been able to put aside empty, baseless rants. My PT 1911 SS {which I bought after a lot of checking - including with our resident experts} has been functioning flawlessly. It makes even me look like a good shooter.

I wonder what one would get for "more money" as far as functionality for MY purposes go. This weapon has been reliably putting what I want where I want.

Qwiks draw, I think your input here is valuable.

Long term value for the money and a known track record. My main issue with the Taurus is its looks. Hate them so its a non start for me.

On a less subjective level I am concerned with a pistol that is mainly made of MIM knock off/look a like parts. The sights are Henie but everything else is powder.

I also do not like the fact it has a new Taurus designed firing pin safety. This makes me very nervous. There is absolutely zero track record for this design. To me that relegates the pistol immediately to range toy so most of the tactical cool extras are now worthless.

I think the Taurus offers value but I think it also feeds the misconception that you need all these things on a 1911. I will out shoot or keep up with most people sporting a Taurus, with its "match grade barrel" (I use that term as loosely as they do) heinie 8s and US equalivant trigger job from a Brazilian factory assembly line :barf:, with my plain Jane Colt 80 series or 70.

People want beavertails and front serrations because of the way they look. 95% of people don't really use them to their intended advantage. Too many new 1911 shooters are being bombarded with marketing and forum posts that say you need all these things when in the end many shooters don't.

That is why my advise is always to get a base Colt or even Springer for your first 1911. Before you buy a semi custom gun purchase one that is basic.

Get a basic gun and shoot it. Take notes. Note what you like and what you don't like about it.

If you find the sights too small make a note. Want a beavertail to get higher on the grip. Note that. Want an extended slide release note that. If you want a fancy main spring like a Ed brown Cobra add that. I also recommend C&S trigger, sear and hammer sets. Etc.....

This is the real beauty of the 1911 platform. Its that you can take a base gun and make it yours. It can be a true personal extension of your hands. If you take the time and do it right you end up with a one of a kind gun that fits guess who?????

YOU!!!!!!!!

My final word is to value. Value is not the lowest price point you can find. To focus only on sticker price is only taking in half of the picture. Long term value comes from product durability and the resale value it retains during your ownership. A Colt will bring you 90%+ of what you paid for it if you buy smart. You can get a $700 Colt shoot a 1000 rounds take care of it and sell it in 5 minute for $600 to $650 depending on your local market. This cannot be said of many other makes.

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

I get 3 free rentals a year at the club. I rented a PT1911 and really wanted to get one. It was flawless even with hollow points. When this first came out everyone ranted about the price and I should have picked one up then. But I wanted to have at least a 1 year track record. Well I walked into a shop this morning and the price for a stainless model PT1911 was $699. When they first hit the street here it was $499. The shop owner was just straight up with me and said it was demand and that he has sold a lot of them and they have topped his kimber sales. Hence the reason he had brand new Kimber Custom II 1911 for $549. With a Kimber sitting there I could not put down 700 bucks for a PT1911. Not because I think the Taurus is junk, but when all is equal would rather my hard earned money go right back into the American economy.

[WESHOOT2]

I HAVE handled about six; four were decent in fit and finish, two were less decent.

Some concerns: safety issues (valid, apparently, but I am certain Taurus will fix this, both on warranty guns, and in production); "aftermarket parts often do not fit" (no surprise here, as the same holds true for many brands); less-than-ideal blueprints (this one is why I don't yet recommend the PT1911 for anyone who plans on shooting one much).



Let me define my "much": more than a few thousands rds through its lifespan.
When someone says "I shot my XYZ over 200 (or 500, or 1500) rds so far and it's been perfect" I don't think of that as "much".

When someone says "I shot my XYZ over 5,000 (or 10,000, or 17,000) rds so far" I think that's closer to my "much".

USPSA competitors will test this truth, Taurus included.



Back to the PT1911: I had this RG 38 revolver once, and it shot fine and reliably (except for its lead-spitting ability) for the limited amount of rds I fired through it.
So, TO ME, it was fine.
Know what I mean?

If one does, then one will NOT buy a PT1911, one will buy a basic comparably-priced S&W or Springfield Armory or Kimber or AutoOrdnance or even STI.



Please do not label me a "Taurus-basher", as my back-up 'always' is a Taurus PT22 I've owned over ten years; I am a "realist".

[Officer's Match]

I have shot one, which I own. And I also own a number of Colts and a CDP Kimber - my PT1911 is my favorite shooter amongst my 1911's. I am not brand loyal, or even partial for that matter (OK, maybe a little partiality towards Colts). I frankly love my PT1911.

[Technosavant]

I also do not like the fact it has a new Taurus designed firing pin safety. This makes me very nervous. There is absolutely zero track record for this design. To me that relegates the pistol immediately to range toy so most of the tactical cool extras are now worthless.

Bzzzt. Nope.

It's a standard series 80 firing pin safety, same as that found on Colt 1991 series and other 1911s.

[kgdbtx]

I too do not own a 1911, however I own a PT145 and a 24/7 in 45 cal and both of these guns avail themselves quite nicely. The PT145 is my CCW gun.....I wouldn't put my life in the hands of 'junk'.....I've put over 1000 rounds through the gun, various types of ammo, and I haven't had one, single FTF or FTL. It just keeps digesting ammo and asking for more.

[gwh7007]

I have done a tuneup on the Taurus and have good things and bad things to say. The tolerances on the slide and frame were good. Very close to specs. Also they both seemed to be sufficiantly hard. The sear and hammer were poor. Also the machine work inside. Very poor. For a carry gun this does not matter much. Of a Ransom rest 4" 25 yds. with different ammo. Good ammo. Rem. match, Federal Match and more. Nothing under 3 1/2". New bushing, fit slide and a lot of work inside with new sear and hammer got it to under 2" at 25. (Swapped a couple of barrels around but not a Kart or Storm Lake so this could be improved more).
"Buzzards got to eat same as worms" J. Wales

[rellascout]

I stand corrected it is a standard firing pin safety 80 series but it does have a new pattened key lock a safety built into the hammer which would also make it a no go for me.

I just don't see a ton of long term value in this pistol. The Sig XO For $600 is a much better base gun.

[Benzene]

rellascout, you should have checked your facts BEFORE you allowed your "enthusiasm"/"loyalty" to expose something of you.

I do NOT buy a gun/car for "Long term value for the money". I buy whatever I want - NOT need - and enjoy it. And from the way things are shaping up, I think there WILL be NO "Long term" for guns anyway.

You might have noticed that I wrote, "In view of my PRACTICAL experience with Taurus revolvers and semi-autos..." You simply "Hate them". Then you ventured out on what YOU called "a less subjective level," only to find yourself playing pontiff about what you do NOT know!

Probably overwhelmed by your own brand of being on "a less subjective level", you might have missed MY words, "...as far as functionality for MY purposes go".

After consultation with those I'm convinced KNOW what they talk about - of course, including experts resident here - I bought one, and have been enjoying shooting it; so much so that I bought another one - unfortunately I did not find the ss model - as a gift for someone about whom I CARE!

I find gwh7007's input VERY useful. I assume you tried to help, but...

[rellascout]

Hey Bezeene you know where you can take your comments?

You obviously take this stuff to seriously. Does your PT1911 define you as person? Did I attack you and tell you that you are a bad human being. Did i say your mother is fat and your wife is ugly. No I did not say anything of the sort. What I did state was my opinion an pistol you happen to own. I have looked at about 10 of these guns. They are poorly finished internally and IMHO have a shortened life span due to their powder metal parts.

I just got home from shooting my NIB Colt 80 Series and my Gen 1 GSR. I bet I paid the same or less for both of these than you paid for your Taurus. To me that is value.

If you love it great. It is a powder metal gun with a limited track record. Enjoy it . You spent your money not mine so I really don't care. If you find 4" groups off a rest at 25 yard acceptable for pistol that claims to have a match barrel have at it. I would rather shoot a solid base 1911 that is well made and accurate then a inaccurate gun made out of powder metal parts. Hey but that is just me and my blind brand loyalty talking.

What I do care about is people getting ****ty advice here. People telling other members what they need or don't need in a 1911. You asked what do you get for more money. You get a better pistol that is more accurate, built from better materials, with a better finish that is worth more today and down the road.

Enjoy your Taurus. Lighten up and don't take things so personally. Its a gun not a extension of your id because you are so wrapped up in your personal choice on this gun you choose to ignore 95% of what I was saying focusing on what I clearly admitted was a mis-statement. For you to then get on some sort of personal attack on me was uncalled for but I guess that is how you role.

[Benzene]

rellas, you seem to be an EXPERT to "know where you can take your comments"!! And I do sympathize with you if "your mother is fat and your wife is ugly"

Something that is new necessarily has "a limited track record"! Like the "Hillary Holes" in some brands - of which I do have a few. And I too "do care about is people getting EMPTY advice here", like those followed up with "I stand corrected" EVEN ON A BASIC POINT.

Yea, now that YOU have spoken, I can "Enjoy your Taurus". Thanks.

I'm also enjoying a nice cool beer - even though I haven't got YOUR permission - and I would have loved to have YOU share one with me here.

[rellascout]

Where you can take your comments part of my post was directly reguarding your personal attack which attempted to label me some form or brand loyalty Nazi. I love how you continue to defend your choice of the Taurus by attacking me personally instead of addressing the issues of the pistol in question. Does 4" accuracy from a rest satisfy your needs? How about sloppy finish where you can open up 5 of them on a table and see noticeable fit and finish differences. MIM parts are satisfactory. I mean instead of a few internal parts being MIM the Taurus us almost exclusively MIM. You really would take that over a no-MIM pistol like the Sig XO at the same price point?

You clearly cannot detach yourself worth from the things/tools you own. It is sad when a man allows himself to be defined by such things.

The stand by my statement 100%. The Taurus 1911 is a classic example of more is less. People perceive value because it is running now and it has all the same features of other semi-custom factory 1911, except its match barrel is only as accurate a Springer GI or Ruger P345.

The real value IMHO is in quality materials, quality construction and quality finish in all things not just 1911s.

[spamanon]

I mean instead of a few internal parts being MIM the Taurus us almost exclusively MIM.

Sorry, not true. Neither the frame nor the barrel is MIM, they are both forged.
On the topic of MIM, I think worries over the use of MIM are really over-rated. Yes it is fairly new and scary because of that. But I know that MIM parts are used in turbines for diesel engines and bearings in automobiles, and their use is growing all the time, including loaded brackets and clips and compressor parts for jet engines in the aerospace engineering industry. Looking at my design criteria chart, I find that the best MIM parts can achieve 99.6% density and for post MIM heat treated .8% carbon steel an ultimate strength of 585 ksi. Compare that with values for forged low carbon steel, which are between 450-2000 ksi. So they are not weak in any sense, though not as strong as the strongest forged. An engineer's job is to figure out how much strength is needed, with a safety factor, then look for what is available. If less than 550 ksi is all that is needed for a hammer (with safety factor included), then either MIM or forged would seem to work.

Of course this applies only to top quality MIM, I have no idea what Taurus and Kimber, or whoever uses. But, keep in mind that MIM is NOT the pressed and sintered technology of yesteryear. P&S achieve 91% density at best, so this may be why so many are suspicious about MIM. But MIM is WAY superior to P&S in terms of mechanical performance.

[rellascout]

Yeah I would hope the barrel and the frame where not powder parts.

Again I have nothing wrong with powder parts but if I have a choice between two pistols I will take the one without any over the one with many.

Again I am not saying that the Taurus is bad pistol but when you look at what you are paying for is a very cheaply assembled pistol. This is from the ground up. Its not just the parts its the labor etc... People want to compare it to other higher priced pistols and call it all the same simply because both guns fire. That is not a fair comparison.

If you like to Taurus get one but they know what they are.

[Technosavant]

Again I am not saying that the Taurus is bad pistol but when you look at what you are paying for is a very cheaply assembled pistol. This is from the ground up. Its not just the parts its the labor etc... People want to compare it to other higher priced pistols and call it all the same simply because both guns fire. That is not a fair comparison.

If you like to Taurus get one but they know what they are.

I'd agree with this. The PT1911 isn't a wonderpistol. They hit that price point by cutting a couple corners- you can't sell a 1911 with those features at that price without doing that. But it isn't a hunk of crap either- the basic necessary parts (frame, slide, barrel), are plenty good quality. The internals are probably so-so, but serviceable (but a good smith can replace those easily). Replace the hammer, sear, safety, and maybe a few other small parts, and you're still under the cost of a SA Loaded.

You can likely get a quite good gun on the used market for what Taurus charges, but those deals can be really hit or miss. I have yet to see one around here (but gunbroker, and others have expanded that market).

As usual, everybody is best served by deciding what they want, and then figuring if they want to pay the piper for a new gun, hunt for a used one, or just save money on a new gun. To those who buy guns as investments, sure, a Taurus might not be the best pick, but I use stocks for my investments.

[Benzene]

spamanon, I WAS a bit concerned about MIM parts in handguns; so, I did what I thought logical: I asked a colleague of mine WHO IS A PROFESSIONAL METALLURGIST; he essentially said the same thing as you did. Thanks.

I recall reading that S&W "Performance Center" handguns now carry MIM parts too. Am I misinformed?

My handguns are more my TOYS than "tools". I do NOT expect to have to win the Iraq war with any of them. So...

Yes, I DO take justifiable pride in whatever I consider mine, and that's a far cry from being "a man allows himself to be defined by such things".

[Officer's Match]

If you like to Taurus get one but they know what they are.

I have one and know exactly what it is.

[spamanon]

I asked a colleague of mine WHO IS A PROFESSIONAL METALLURGIST; he essentially said the same thing as you did. Thanks. I recall reading that S&W "Performance Center" handguns now carry MIM parts too. Am I misinformed?

Yeah, I am not a metallurgist, but I am a mechanical engineer. So I am familiar with mechanical properties of materials, especially different metals. I can understand where relascout is coming from in his skepticism of MIM, especially given the history of P&S components. Also the variation in how well the MIM parts are manufactured leaves room for skepticism without proof that a certain manufacturer is using the best processes. As to your question, I don't know the answer on S&W, but I would make a (bold) prediction: If MIM technology keeps improving to where they can reach 99.9% density economically, most if not all major gun manufacturers will be using them. My opinion.

[WESHOOT2]

It's not such much what the stuff gets made of/from; it's more their shape, and relationship to all the other parts.......


Blueprints?

[rellascout]

Step up to the plate Taurus lovers. Smoking deal from one of TFL finest!!!!!!

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=295441

[allenomics]

Personally, every Taurus 1911 gun owners I know has NO complaints, just praise.

[Benzene]

allenomics, I have SEVERAL guns [including handguns] and love them all {well, perhaps not so much my S&W 342 PD AirLite because it kicks like a wild mule and cannot be stoked with bullets of weights < 125 grains; and my S&W 686 because of the reminding "hole lock"}. Very cautiously I recently purchased the PT 1911, and I LOVE it so much that I bought one for someone dear to me. So, I have to agree with you.

[nicknitro71]

Lots of hate here!

My 1911s are a SA Trophy Match Long Slide (made in USA), a BUL M5 (made in Israel), and a PT1911SS. I have also shot many more 1911s including STIs, Kimbers, Colts...

The PT1911 is one good gun and for the money truly the best value no matter how much of a turn off that "made in Brazil" label is (oh by the way please ditch 90% of the SA because that's where they are made too!).

It was not the way I wanted out the box: I don't like the series 80, the hammer with the integral lock, , the cheap grips, and the bushing was not as tight as I'd liked.

I convert it into a 70 series, put a new hammer, grips, EGW melt fitted bushing, and did a trigger job, all for less than 100 bucks and I payed 575 for it.

If you can find me a better shooting 1911 for less than 700 please let me know because my PT shoots as nicely as my SA that I payed almost twice as much for it, and no, it's not twice the gun.

[rellascout]

Lets see I paid $550 for a 80 Series Colt NIB.

I paid $650 for a 70 Series Colt NIB.

I paid $700 for a Dan Wesson CBOB LNIB

I paid $550 for a Excellent condition Gen 1 GSR with extras.

Each one of these guns meets your under $700 criteria and are hands down better 1911s then the Taurus.

It is not a matter of hate. I it a matter of opinion.