Bad episode of .... Forged-In-Fire

Pahoo · March 25, 2022, 01:00 PM

Like most Gun-Guys, I'm also a Knife-Guy and routinely follow "Forged-In-Fire.
Last evening when they got into the Chopping test, they destroyed at least, two M/L-Sidelocks. one of them was a Flinter and what a shame as Sidelocks are special to me. I would prefer that they would have used as least one Inline. ....

Be Safe !!!

bladesmith 1 · March 26, 2022, 11:23 AM

Well I've made knives sense the 80s. Started out doing it at work on surface grinders and hollow grinding the blades. The heat treat guy in the Tool Makers room would HT the blades. Then I started doing some Damascus knives. The American Bladesmith Society offers classes in hand forging and also making Damascus. So I took off work and went down and took both classes. Came home and made a forge, and bought the anvil, hammer and tongs, a heat treat oven, and a 35# Trip Hammer for making Damascus. The big thing I remember about knife making is heat treating the knife properly. It is the heart and sole of a knife. It must be done properly for a knife to hold an edge, not to chip, bend enough not to break, and be easy to resharpen. I never see anyone [ maybe once or twice ] draw the blade back after hardening it. It's brittle. Drop it and it can break in half. Get the Rockwell content too high and the edge will chip and just be awful to sharpen. And one of the judges is usually a Master Smith in the ABS and he never comments on the lack of drawing a blade back so it isn't brittle.
I think it's nice there is a show on forging knives, but their testing leaves a lot to be desired. To be a Journeymen Smith in the ABS the test consist of cutting the hair on your arm, chopping through two 2X4s and then cutting the hair on your arm again to prove the edge held up, cutting through a free hanging 1" rope, and then bending the blade 90 degrees without it breaking more than half way through. There are bladesmiths who can forge blades from 52100 ball bearing steel and bend it back and forth 90 degrees each way SIX times and it doesn't crack. It holds and edge. Now there's a blade properly heat treated, not some BS chop test they do.
After taking the classes I took the test and past, but there was a two year wait after you apply to make sure your business practices were up to snuff. I never went back down to take the test, to far to travel. But I did what I wanted - learn to forge and heat treat a knife, and make Damascus steel.
There, I finally got that off my chest. I've always wanted the opportunity to comment on that show. A good idea, just don't think it's done properly.

bladesmith 1 · March 26, 2022, 12:20 PM

While I'm at it, I never see anyone use a magnet to check the steel to see if it's at " critical temperature " to be quenched. Heat it any higher and you get a " grain growth " and that makes a knife weaker. Different steels are heat treated to different temperatures. They got these guys just grabbing some junk laying on the ground and making knives. When steel is heated to a high temp and a magnet won't stick to it, then it's time to stick it straight into the oil for a quench. No body checks sh!!. That heated steel looks different in different lighting conditions. The red you're use to seeing at home in your shop can look much different where they're filming. Hell, you can sharpen aluminum to cut, but it doesn't make a good knife.
My time is too valuable to be using junk steel that I don't know the chemical make up. A leaf spring for a car is 5160, a file 1084. You want at least .6 % carbon content to make a knife. 5160 is .6 - good for camp knives, swords, or maybe machetes. 1084 has .8% and better for thinner all around smaller knives or Bowies. 01 has 1% and that's about as high as you go for carbon content for knives. 99% of the time I use 1084, 01, 52100, or 5160 that I buy. Then I don't worry and can tell a customer what it's made from and I haven't wasted time checking a steel to see if it's hard enable, and I know what draw temp to set my heat treat oven at. Each steel has a different draw temp so you get the 56 to 60 Rockwell on the C scale. Lower for camp knives, higher for skinners. This gives you a knife that holds and edge and can be sharpened without too much effort. And the right Rockwell content for the type of knife your making. Hope I haven't bored anyone with my rant.

Pahoo · March 26, 2022, 12:48 PM

Quote:

While I'm at it, I never see anyone use a magnet to check the steel to see if it's at " critical temperature " to be quenched.

Well, apparently they must have heard you as they did mention it, in the last show I watched. Thought that was a pretty neat deal and wondered how they cam up, with that one. I still watch the show but as when I watch the news, I have my finger on the remote button ....

Be Safe !!!

**JohnKSa** · March 26, 2022, 03:20 PM

Quote:

While I'm at it, I never see anyone use a magnet to check the steel to see if it's at " critical temperature " to be quenched.

It is surprising that it doesn't seem to be very common on the show, but I have seen several competitors use the technique.

I kind of wonder if more do it and we don't see it. The in-house competition usually runs for 3hrs or more with 3 or 4 folks working continuously and yet that portion of the show is maybe 20 minutes, at most. That's a TON of footage that ends up on the cutting room floor instead of in the show.

Quote:

I never see anyone [ maybe once or twice ] draw the blade back after hardening it.

In the typical shows blades are all tempered the same between the first 'smithing competition sequence and the first judging session. Sometimes they mention it explicitly, but it always happens. In some less typical competitions they will be responsible for tempering their own blades.

Bob Willman · March 27, 2022, 10:21 AM

Drawing the temper after quenching is not good television. No smoke, no flames, no red hot steel, no noise and takes too long. Our blacksmith group has gained many young new members after they watched Forged in Fire.

Bob
WB8NQW

Jim Watson · March 27, 2022, 11:09 AM

Right, it is entertainment, not education. Good publicity, though; I see a lot of announcements of "hammer ins" on FB now.

BornFighting88 · March 27, 2022, 06:13 PM

Being a metal worker for so many years, I absolutely CRINGE at the heat treating W-1 (a water quenched steel) in dang oil. That just induces stress cracks!! Gets too hard and brittle, I still watch for the entertainment and the torture tests. Let's be real, watching FiF strictly for the successful knives is like watching NASCAR only for the racing..... Catastrophic failures of some of the blades is as gratifying to me as a podium win for Junior at Talladega!!!

There are some absolute rockstars on there, but there are some steel jockeys that just get the screen time. But the Oil quenching of W-1 is the cringe-fest. Yet I still watch..........

dahermit · March 27, 2022, 08:21 PM

Quote:

While I'm at it, I never see anyone use a magnet to check the steel to see if it's at " critical temperature " to be quenched. Heat it any higher and you get a " grain growth " and that makes a knife weaker. Different steels are heat treated to different temperatures.

The magnet test is based on the fact that the Ferrite changes from a body centered space lattice to a face centered Austenite space lattice, which happens to be non-magnetic. It is more reliable than depending upon color to determine temperature of steel. You learn such things in metallurgy class in college.

dahermit · March 27, 2022, 08:24 PM

Quote:

But the Oil quenching of W-1 is the cringe-fest.

W-1 means "water quenching", however water quenching is a very sever (and risky) quench. Many people will use oil to quench as it is less likely to crack W-1.

**44 AMP** · March 27, 2022, 08:24 PM

Other than actual combat/news footage, nothing on TV is "reality".

Forged in Fire is entertainment, and is about as connected to reality as "Top Shots" or many other less entertaining shows.

And, yes, I'd probably be the first one voted off the island or team...

bladesmith 1 · March 28, 2022, 02:54 PM

Thank you for the correction, dahermit. And with blades being so thin it's real easy to get a crack. The water quench for W-1 was meant for items a bit thicker than knives. You won't get as high a Rockwell reading by oil quenching, but still high enough for cutting instruments and not have to worry about cracking all your hard work. There are many blacksmith ways to check to see if the steel hardened, but I was lucky enough to get a Rockwell machine that was being thrown out at work. About 15 years ago my grand daughter [ the tom boy ] wanted me to help her with a science project. Only thing I could think up was the " majic of steel ". We profiled a knife and took a photo of it in the Rockwell machine before it was heat treated, then one after. Also got some of her holding it with the tongs in the forge till it got hot enough so a magnet wouldn't stick to it before the quench. Lots of photos and explanations of what was happening. We glued everything on a big poster board, even the knife - she got a A. Her teacher was quite impressed. Even he learned something that day.

dahermit · March 28, 2022, 03:42 PM

Quote:

and not have to worry about cracking all your hard work.

Sometimes the W-1 will crack even when quenched in oil... "Youse pays yer dollar and youse takes your chances.", as they say.

March 25, 2022, 01:00 PM	#1
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Bad episode of .... Forged-In-Fire Like most Gun-Guys, I'm also a Knife-Guy and routinely follow "Forged-In-Fire. Last evening when they got into the Chopping test, they destroyed at least, two M/L-Sidelocks. one of them was a Flinter and what a shame as Sidelocks are special to me. I would prefer that they would have used as least one Inline. .... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

March 26, 2022, 11:23 AM	#2
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	Well I've made knives sense the 80s. Started out doing it at work on surface grinders and hollow grinding the blades. The heat treat guy in the Tool Makers room would HT the blades. Then I started doing some Damascus knives. The American Bladesmith Society offers classes in hand forging and also making Damascus. So I took off work and went down and took both classes. Came home and made a forge, and bought the anvil, hammer and tongs, a heat treat oven, and a 35# Trip Hammer for making Damascus. The big thing I remember about knife making is heat treating the knife properly. It is the heart and sole of a knife. It must be done properly for a knife to hold an edge, not to chip, bend enough not to break, and be easy to resharpen. I never see anyone [ maybe once or twice ] draw the blade back after hardening it. It's brittle. Drop it and it can break in half. Get the Rockwell content too high and the edge will chip and just be awful to sharpen. And one of the judges is usually a Master Smith in the ABS and he never comments on the lack of drawing a blade back so it isn't brittle. I think it's nice there is a show on forging knives, but their testing leaves a lot to be desired. To be a Journeymen Smith in the ABS the test consist of cutting the hair on your arm, chopping through two 2X4s and then cutting the hair on your arm again to prove the edge held up, cutting through a free hanging 1" rope, and then bending the blade 90 degrees without it breaking more than half way through. There are bladesmiths who can forge blades from 52100 ball bearing steel and bend it back and forth 90 degrees each way SIX times and it doesn't crack. It holds and edge. Now there's a blade properly heat treated, not some BS chop test they do. After taking the classes I took the test and past, but there was a two year wait after you apply to make sure your business practices were up to snuff. I never went back down to take the test, to far to travel. But I did what I wanted - learn to forge and heat treat a knife, and make Damascus steel. There, I finally got that off my chest. I've always wanted the opportunity to comment on that show. A good idea, just don't think it's done properly. Last edited by bladesmith 1; March 26, 2022 at 11:35 AM.

March 27, 2022, 08:24 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Other than actual combat/news footage, nothing on TV is "reality". Forged in Fire is entertainment, and is about as connected to reality as "Top Shots" or many other less entertaining shows. And, yes, I'd probably be the first one voted off the island or team... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 26, 2022, 12:20 PM	#3
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	While I'm at it, I never see anyone use a magnet to check the steel to see if it's at " critical temperature " to be quenched. Heat it any higher and you get a " grain growth " and that makes a knife weaker. Different steels are heat treated to different temperatures. They got these guys just grabbing some junk laying on the ground and making knives. When steel is heated to a high temp and a magnet won't stick to it, then it's time to stick it straight into the oil for a quench. No body checks sh!!. That heated steel looks different in different lighting conditions. The red you're use to seeing at home in your shop can look much different where they're filming. Hell, you can sharpen aluminum to cut, but it doesn't make a good knife. My time is too valuable to be using junk steel that I don't know the chemical make up. A leaf spring for a car is 5160, a file 1084. You want at least .6 % carbon content to make a knife. 5160 is .6 - good for camp knives, swords, or maybe machetes. 1084 has .8% and better for thinner all around smaller knives or Bowies. 01 has 1% and that's about as high as you go for carbon content for knives. 99% of the time I use 1084, 01, 52100, or 5160 that I buy. Then I don't worry and can tell a customer what it's made from and I haven't wasted time checking a steel to see if it's hard enable, and I know what draw temp to set my heat treat oven at. Each steel has a different draw temp so you get the 56 to 60 Rockwell on the C scale. Lower for camp knives, higher for skinners. This gives you a knife that holds and edge and can be sharpened without too much effort. And the right Rockwell content for the type of knife your making. Hope I haven't bored anyone with my rant.

March 27, 2022, 10:21 AM	#6
Bob Willman Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2018 Location: Bowling Green, Ohio Posts: 111	Drawing the temper after quenching is not good television. No smoke, no flames, no red hot steel, no noise and takes too long. Our blacksmith group has gained many young new members after they watched Forged in Fire. Bob WB8NQW

March 27, 2022, 11:09 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Right, it is entertainment, not education. Good publicity, though; I see a lot of announcements of "hammer ins" on FB now.

March 27, 2022, 06:13 PM	#8
BornFighting88 Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2021 Posts: 455	Being a metal worker for so many years, I absolutely CRINGE at the heat treating W-1 (a water quenched steel) in dang oil. That just induces stress cracks!! Gets too hard and brittle, I still watch for the entertainment and the torture tests. Let's be real, watching FiF strictly for the successful knives is like watching NASCAR only for the racing..... Catastrophic failures of some of the blades is as gratifying to me as a podium win for Junior at Talladega!!! There are some absolute rockstars on there, but there are some steel jockeys that just get the screen time. But the Oil quenching of W-1 is the cringe-fest. Yet I still watch..........

March 28, 2022, 02:54 PM	#12
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	Thank you for the correction, dahermit. And with blades being so thin it's real easy to get a crack. The water quench for W-1 was meant for items a bit thicker than knives. You won't get as high a Rockwell reading by oil quenching, but still high enough for cutting instruments and not have to worry about cracking all your hard work. There are many blacksmith ways to check to see if the steel hardened, but I was lucky enough to get a Rockwell machine that was being thrown out at work. About 15 years ago my grand daughter [ the tom boy ] wanted me to help her with a science project. Only thing I could think up was the " majic of steel ". We profiled a knife and took a photo of it in the Rockwell machine before it was heat treated, then one after. Also got some of her holding it with the tongs in the forge till it got hot enough so a magnet wouldn't stick to it before the quench. Lots of photos and explanations of what was happening. We glued everything on a big poster board, even the knife - she got a A. Her teacher was quite impressed. Even he learned something that day.