Non-lead ammunition

[Lohman446]

With Federal Power-Shok Copper being available for very close to the same price as lead ammo I am thinking about making the plunge at least for my game animals. What is the general consensus on non-lead vs lead ammo anyways?

[mete]

Barnes all copper has been around for some time now .It's now my choice for hunting and SD. They are a proven premium bullet.

[CalmerThanYou]

I subscribe to Recoil Magazine, they just put out issue 1 of a sister publication called Carnivore. Caters to the hunting crowd mostly. In the first issue is a pretty comprehensive article on lead free ammunition.
Check it out, I bet it would be helpful.

[jmr40]

Used properly copper is effective. But it behaves much differently than lead bullets. Generally speaking it is best to drop down at least 1 and maybe 2 bullet weights lighter than you'd normally use.

*Copper bullets retain 100% or very near that after impact vs 20% to 80% for lead based bullets. It takes a pretty tough conventional bullet to retain 80% of it's weight. As a result you don't need to use a bullet nearly as heavy. A 130 gr copper bullet will give you about the same penetration and do the same damage as a 180 gr lead bullet that loses 25% of its weight at impact.

*Copper bullets need to impact at much faster speeds in order to expand. Most lead bullets will expand down to 1800 fps and many as slow as 1600 fps. Copper needs at least 2000 fps at impact and 2200 is better.

*Copper works very well at close to moderate ranges on even very large game. Often with great results when using calibers and bullet weights normally considered too small.

*Not the best choice at extended ranges where bullet speed has dropped below about 2000 fps. But most will retain that speed out to 350-400 yards which is as far as most will shoot anyway.

*Most of the time when you read of copper failing it is because people try to use the same bullet weights they would normally use and don't shoot them fast enough. If you look at recovered copper bullets with impact speeds below 2200 fps expansion is poor. Below 2000 fps and you essentially have a FMJ.

I load 130 gr TTSX's for my 308 at 3050 fps. At under 200 yards that bullet will behave much like a 180 from a 300 WM. I'd still use that load out to about 300 yards. But for longer shots would prefer a heavier lead bullet that will still expand with slower impact speeds.

[bamaranger]

I am very skeptical of the whole environmentally friendly bullet movement for hunting and am disappointed to see the major ammo companies jump on board so enthusiastically. The industry seems to be playing right into the hands of the green people. I suspect that the industry knows more than we do, (about the future) and that cost may be a driving factor as well.

I hear that lead is now hard to obtain, and certainly traditional lead projectiles have risen in cost. All this due to environmental regulation is the chatter. But as noted my jmr40's post, copper/alloy slugs do not perform as lead, and an entire industry and sport use spins around the performance of lead slugs, at certain velocities and weights, with certain rifling twists, to certain distances, etc etc.

When lead shot became banned for waterfowl, the duck hunting world was turned upside down, and to me has never been the same, as we searched for and used options that either cost more than lead, or performed markedly more poorly.

I fear we are on the verge of the same for the rifleman.

[shootbrownelk]

Bamaranger, I've used Barnes X, Nosler E-Tip, Hornady GMX lead-free copper alloy bullets. For me, they outperform lead cup/core bullets by a wide margin. Other than the looney state of California who mandate lead free bullets, I'm not aware of any "Green" conspiracy here. I've used the Barnes X bullets for 25 years, I'm branching out to the others now...similar performance. I can shoot a 130 gr. Barnes TTSX at much higher velocities than lead 165/180's and the Barnes will retain over 95% of it's loaded weight. I'm going to use Nosler 80 gr. E-tips in my .243 this year.

[bamaranger]

I am glad to hear that you are having success with enviro bullets, and I am sure others are as well. I can remember when the Barnes bullets came out years ago,and several noted writers singing their praises regards performance. Barnes had indeed found what appears to be a better bullet.

Before this gets all political, and locked because of my own looney ideas, I will grant that the alloy slugs have some merit and likely a growing future for what ever reasons. I will stay traditional and shoot lead/copper for all of my hunting and best wishes to all if they shoot otherwise, by choice or regulation.

[Lohman446]

For me, they outperform lead cup/core bullets by a wide margin.

In searching this subject on Google it seems that in parts of Africa copper bullets are preferred purely on a performance basis and I was wondering if others had experience on game animals here that backed that up.

For instance if the 2000 FPS is key to a copper bullet performing well a glance at the ballistic charts and my absolute max. shooting distance of 300 yards with a 243 tell me I am within the parameters to expect performance (from an 85 grain copper bullet loaded towards 3200 FPS muzzle velocity)

[doofus47]

My rifles used to shoot cup and core at moa.
They now shoot copper MOA. Find the right bullet for your rifle and you're equally golden.

Both bullet types need a certain speed on impact to fully open. That speed required by copper is a bit higher, so you can't throw as long and hope the bullet will do your work for you, but if you aim well and hit what you aim at, then either will get it done.

good luck out there

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

As I believe.
California tree huger's and rock kisser's Fathered such Law.
"The use of Lead and or lead core bullets is strictly verboten i.e. illegal to hunt with."

[44 AMP]

I had not heard the CA "no lead bullet" law covered the entire state, although it is not unexpected since such laws tend to be expanded, once passed.

I do recall the original lead ban came with the claim that it was done to "protect" the California Condor, and only applied in condor habitat regions.

I'm not a CA resident, and I don't visit there, so I'm not up on the current laws. I have a friend who does visit CA, sometimes, and he's looking for non-lead ammo, or just bullets, for his .348 Winchester, so he can use the old girl hunting on his next CA visit.

So far, he's not having much luck. Barnes apparently dropped that caliber some time ago. Anyone having or knowing a source for .348 cal non-lead bullets, please, let us know.

[Lohman446]

I get the political concerns over it. Past those does anyone have negatives on them based on use?

[natman]

Non-lead ammo is or is going to be required for all hunting in California.

Phase 1 – Effective July 1, 2015, nonlead ammunition will be required when taking Nelson bighorn sheep and all wildlife on CDFW wildlife areas and ecological reserves.

Phase 2 – Effective July 1, 2016, nonlead shot will be required when taking upland game birds with a shotgun, except for dove, quail, snipe, and any game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs. In addition, nonlead shot will be required when using a shotgun to take resident small game mammals, furbearing mammals, nongame mammals, nongame birds, and any wildlife for depredation purposes.

Phase 3 – Effective July 1, 2019, nonlead ammunition will be required when taking any wildlife with a firearm anywhere in California.

Existing restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in the California condor range remain in effect while implementation proceeds.

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/hunting/nonlead-ammunition

Combined with CA's upcoming ban on mail order ammo, this is going to make millions of dollars worth of ammo unusable for hunting while making replacement difficult.

[T. O'Heir]

"...California tree huger's and rock kisser's Fathered such Law..." Yep and their rabidly anti-hunting brethren. The amount of lead put into the atmosphere by bullets is negligible, but if banning lead cored bullet makes hunting and/or getting into hunting a nuisance and more expensive, that'll do.
Not 100% convinced migratory birds were eating lead shot either.

[Model12Win]

I have heard silver would be an excellent choice for a non lead bullet yet is to expensive and best reserved for daemons.

[ShootistPRS]

Cast silver is too hard for a good bullet. It also takes about 1600F to make good castings.
Aside from the Lone Ranger I have never heard of anyone using silver bullets.

[Tinbucket]

Silver is softer than copper, I was told. I don't remember any special dies to draw the silver.
I do know in the early seventies we would some generators for Mexico, out of silver wire.
They furnished the silver. They had more silver than copper back then.
So there is at leas one dam in Mexico with silver wound generators.

[reynolds357]

I started shooting Barnes X long before I knew they were supposed to be environmentally friendly. Only thing I knew is they did no blow to smithereens in my 7STW.

[Jack O'Conner]

Copper has less density than lead which means a copper bullet will be longer given the same weight. Longer bullets intrude deeply into the case which means a lower powder charge is req'd to retain critical overall length of the loaded cartridge. This is why a lighter bullet must be used.

I'm very pleased with the performance of plain but effective lead core bullets. No copper bullets for me!

Jack

[Picher]

I've used Barnes TTX and found that they fouled the bore and difficult to clean out. After switching to Hornady GMX in .243 Win, .270 Win, and 30-06, we had no fouling and all deer shot were clean kills. I like the fact that we're not eating meat tainted by lead, nor are eagles or other critters.

I've read scientific reports stating that lead powder/particles found in animals killed by conventional bullets can travel through the circulatory system and show up on X-Rays of meat.

The GMX bullets have been stellar on Maine whitetails from 30-400 yards, especially out of my .270 Win at 3,250 fps m/v. (Reloder 22, CCI Mag Primers)

[Lohman446]

Sorry for the lack of pictures - I do not do the take a picture of the dead animal thing.

I figured I would come back to this thread after using copper ammo this year. I had settled on the Federal Powershock 85 grain copper out of a .243. I was overly impressed with how the ammo grouped out of my rifle. I did not get out a lot this year and was moving through the woods on the property on a fairly windy day Saturday about 10:00AM. I had a group of approach me and selected one of the smaller bucks out of the group - I did not have them weigh it after field dressed but guess in the 100 to 110lb area. It was, frankly, the best shot that would not involve going through brush and the group had paused and was looking at me.

I did what I swore I would not do with a .243 and took what was a less than ideal shot at about 40 yards. I knew it afterwards but I took the shot anyways. The buck was facing towards me with just a slight hint of quartering. In hindsight I should not have taken that shot and when I saw the flags moving away from me I thought I was in for a long track. There was some brush as I was not in my cleared out stand area due to the wind and I was hoping for a clean miss. I walked up quickly as I had two tags and have seen deer stop after a shot to start looking and the deer lay there very much dead.

The round had entered from the front towards the left shoulder and caused a lot of havoc in that area. It had then entered the chest cavity, taken out a portion of the heart where it had just hit (no I did not measure damage) and must have been fairly in-tact still because it was a fairly hemi-spherical damage. One lung was unidentifiable and there was some minimal damage to the small intestines (though not the stomach so I might have nicked it dressing it - I will confess to not looking closely there). There was no discernable exit wound and not a lot of external bleeding but it was also a pretty quick kill.

Overall considering it was a poor shot for the caliber chosen and I was kicking myself for moving away from the .270 as I walked up with visions of a long track in front of me I was impressed. I think luck likely played some role in it and would not recommend taking the same shot again with the same rifle. Still the ammunition, which really was the point of this thread, performed as advertised. Do I think it performed better than a quality lead bullet would have? No. But I think it performed just as well and don't see myself moving away from the copper ammo because of my experience.

[FairWarning]

Originally Posted by Model12Win

I have heard silver would be an excellent choice for a non lead bullet yet is to expensive and best reserved for daemons.

And it's generally only usable at night.

[reynolds357]

Silver makes a terrible cast bullet. It probably would be ok jacketed.

[bacardisteve]

I like them in the fast cartridges when I have to worry about unexpected game closer than anticipated. Cup and core and even bonded bullets can really come apart at close range and high speeds. I had a 200gr accubond come unglued at 40yards on a bear out of a 300rum. Now I use 180gr tsx when hunting with that rifle.

[johnwilliamson062]

The amount of lead put into the atmosphere by bullets is negligible, but if banning lead cored bullet makes hunting and/or getting into hunting a nuisance and more expensive, that'll do.

It has to do with ground water I believe. In theory pure lead should be pretty stable in freshwater. A pellet left in a pond or lake today should pretty much be there in 100 years. Some of the Roman aqueducts have been carrying flowing water for much longer and the lead pipes are still working.
The problem is much of our waterways are now polluted. Some of the older cities with combined sewer overflow, areas with industrial run-off, or factory farm run-off have some pretty nasty water. There are many places the PH level is not so god and impure lead will then get compounds into the water and into animals systems.


Also, if an animal is injured with a lead shot, the shot is then in ingested by a scavenger or carnivore eating the original animal, the lead is then subject to strong acids in the digestive system and may poison the animal.

I have not seen any evidence that either of these possibilities actually has a measurable effect on wildlife, but it is feasible.