AA#5 in .357mag?

[jhansman]

Hey all-
Did a search here for this topic, but nothing came up that addressed my issue, soooo....

Bought some AA#5 principally to try in my new XD45 Tac because, mostly out of boredom, I wanted to try a new powder for that caliber. The slide is out for finishing, so in the interim I thought I'd give this highly-touted powder in my GP100 .357. Never having fired this propellant before, I used what Accurate calls for as the bottom end of the load range for a 158g. lead bullet, 8.1 gr., AOL of 1.59". All I can say is "Yikes." Felt not unlike W296, sounded a bit like it, major recoil, and dirty? You should see my cylinder. After 50 rnds, switched back to my standby, W231, which was a pleasure, and equally accurate. So, either I'm doing something wrong, or this powder is likely better suited for the .45ACP. Any thoughts? TIA.

P.S. FWIW, I've been reloading both handgun and rifle for years now (successfully), and was never this surprised by a new load.

[Northof50]

#5 is a fast powder for full 357. I believe it ranges from 8.0 -9.0 for LSW. That's not a lot of room. 6.4 is +p special top end.

Been reloading the 357 for a Dan Wesson 715 for 28 years. It's the only cartridge I cannot duplicate the factory round [Reminton's 125 JHP is still unreachable for my gun and handholds].

I have also found that if the charge is not at max, many powders are dirty in the 357.

For light loading, I like Unique; for moderate #7 and for full, I still like 2400 [old school]

[Nick_C_S]

Bought some AA#5 principally to try in my new XD45

Good choice for potent loads in 45 ACP.

I consider AA#5 an intermediate burn rate range propellant. It's very close to Unique (from my exp - not quoting a burn rate chart); but faster than Power Pistol or HS-6 (the other intermediates I have used extensively). So it runs on the faster end of the intermediate spectrum (which is a bit ironic because AA#2 runs to the slower end of the fast spectrum - so they're actually pretty close to each-other).

AA#5 meters fantastic. And when loaded properly, runs very clean - very clean. When discussing how clean a propellant runs; it's largely subjective for starters. Furthermore, when using lead slugs, the waters get even muddier. So I would suggest to hold judgement on its cleanliness.

Your experience with your lead SWC's rather surprises me - especially the characterizing it with W296 part.

I conducted a work up for 357 Magnum using AA#5 and Hornady 158 XTP bullets for short barrel (3" 686) duty. AA#5 leans fast for 357 Mag (as Northof50 mentioned); which seemed perfect for the short barrel (reduced thrust recoil and muzzle blast is the goal here - while still maintaining decent velocity). The work up went well. I produced a very manageable round that ran 1097 f/s through the 3" - which is likely sufficient for expansion. 1159 f/s through a 686 4" - for those keeping score at home. The round runs fairly high pressure so it's hardly worth mentioning that it ran clean. Very clean.

Northof50 said: I have also found that if the charge is not at max, many powders are dirty in the 357.

Yep - or at least near max, when using intermediates (and slower). The cavernous 357 case likes the pressure pumped up to run right - and it becomes progressively more noticeable as you move toward the slower propellants. (You're new to TFL; but I've noticed your loading experience coming through quite a few times already.)

AA#5 is best suited for semi-autos. I consider its wheelhouse being 115gn & 124gn bullets for compact 9mm's. Full sized guns and/or heavier bullets may be better served by AA#7 - save for range practice level 147 ammo.

AA#5 is also great in 45 ACP - as already mentioned. In this lower pressure application, it's best to run heavies (230gn); but also serves well with ligher slugs too - just gotta pump 'em up near the top.

AA#5 is my go-to for range practice level 180gn in 10mm Auto. I don't own a 40 cal., but I suspect it would do well there too. And could serve in defense level applications with the ligher 165's (10 or 40).

So yeah, AA#5 is great stuff; and I would suggest to patiently find its home for you. It is definitely among my more liked propellants.

[T. O'Heir]

There's AA #5 data on Accurate's site. Pretty hot loads for a cast bullet. Only ever used it for .41 AE myself. It's much slower burning than 231 but much faster than 296. Similar burn rate to HS-6.
8.1 grains is .1 over minimum for a cast 158. 8.0 gave 'em 1100 FPS. 9.0 is max at 1220 FPS.
Compared to 939 FPS with a 4.8 grains max load of Bullseye. Win 231 Max loads run 1,109 FPS for a cast 158. W296 is for jacketed bullets and magnum loads according to Hodgdon. All out of a 6" barrel.

[rclark]

I don't mind AA#5 for .357 158g SWCs. I liked 7.0g (1050fps), 7.5g (1110 fps) and 8.0g (1162fps) when I was testing the powder. This was out of a 6 1/2" BH. Basically a medium power powder like Unique but runs very well through the powder measure. Also fairly low Extreme spreads. None of these are really 'magnum' loads. I tested from 6.0g to 9.0g .

[std7mag]

I would not push lead bullets that fast.

About 1000 fps would be my max, unless your using gas checks.

Enjoy it in your 45 ACP.

[jhansman]

Thanks for the replies. Addressing a bit of each:

I have also found that if the charge is not at max, many powders are dirty in the 357.

If this is the case with AA#5, then I doubt I will use it again in my GP100. Can't imagine loading at max just to get it to burn cleaner. At 8.1, I was getting a kick that was pretty stiff, and not much fun. Accurate though. Haven't tried it yet with a 158gr. XTP, but I might, just to see.

AA#5 is also great in 45 ACP - as already mentioned. In this lower pressure application, it's best to run heavies (230gn); but also serves well with ligher slugs too - just gotta pump 'em up near the top.

Typically, I now shoot 200 gr Acme coated RN, so I'm hoping I can find a load that lets me control muzzle flip and feels comfortable. My jacketed choice for the XD is a 230gr. XTP, which I am also looking forward to trying out with this powder.

I don't mind AA#5 for .357 158g SWCs. I liked 7.0g (1050fps), 7.5g (1110 fps) and 8.0g (1162fps) when I was testing the powder.

Interesting. Any issues loading this powder below the recommended minimum? Don't own a chrono, so I'm using research to find the velocities others have recorded with their AA#5 recipes.

[Northof50]

Jhansman - reduced loads are common for me in the 357, 44 mag and 10mm cases. I will often use the load recommended for the upper end of 38special - +P. As written in my original post, 6.4 grains is the upper end for the 38+P with #5. Provided I can find quality reloading data, from reputable companies 38, 44sp and 40SW work in the larger cases.

For what it's worth, my Rugers all shoot relatively close or over published data, as measured by my Oehler chrono. The only handgun I've ever seen a large discrepancy is the Dan Wesson, which always seems to be 50-100fps slower.

[std7mag]

Jhansman,

Your not shooting an XDS, right?

I load 185s for my neighbors to get velocity up to where the bullet will expand reliably out of the 3.3" barrel.

[jhansman]

No, the old school original XD45 5" Tactical. I, unfortunately as a gun owner, live in CA, so our "approved" list has but a few XDs on it, and none of the more recent models. I am OK with it, but want to be sure my loads are safe and sane, especially with a powder I've not used before. My introduction was a bit of a wake up

Northof50-thanks, good info.

[rclark]

Any issues loading this powder below the recommended minimum?

No. Go look at the .38 Special data. Those loads are, of course, safe to load in your .357 case. It's funny that manuals only show .357 or .44Mag high end loads when you can run .38special or .44 Special level loads in them. I don't like Magnum loads for most of my shooting, so I always load down to 1000 to 1100 in my magnums (.44Mag and .357). Note that there are powders you don't want to download like H110/W296.

As for leading, I've run my .44 Mag 240g SWC loads up to 1300fps with no leading problems. No need for gas checks or jacketed. Depends on the gun dimensions and of course hardness of the bullet. All plays into lead free barrels. There many articles on the science of shooting lead at various velocities/pressures.

[Nick_C_S]

Typically, I now shoot 200 gr Acme coated RN

If you're shooting 200gn lead, I'd recommend a faster propellant than AA#5. You're also talking about controlling muzzle flip. All the more reason to use something faster.

45 ACP is a bit of a wild card when it comes to propellant burn rate - everything "shifts" to the slower side. Even with 230's, some surprisingly stout ammo can be made with fast powders like Bullseye and W231. I've taken 230's to 826 f/s using W231 and could have pushed it farther (pointless though). Intermediates like AA#5 should really only be used in 45 ACP when you're going for upper velocities.

You mentioned 230 XTP's - AA#5 would get along well with those.

So I looked through my chronograph load work up data to see my history of 45 ACP / AA#5. Turns out there's little. And nothing with 230's. I have had such pleasing results with AA#5 in 9mm; and especially 10mm, that I never bothered to use it much in 45 ACP. That, coupled with the fact that I've been loading 45 ACP for decades and have stuck with old school recipes, using old school propellants (Bullseye; W231; Unique; & HS-6). Most all my 45 ACP loadings is with W231 - all kinds of power levels and bullet weights. Unique gets honorable mention here . . . I've taken 230's to 936 f/s using Unique (but backed down to 900 f/s as the set loading), and staying within published data. And that brings me back to my point: I only use the intermediate speed propellant (Unique) when I'm running full-throttle heavies. Most everything else gets faster stuff. The same would hold true with AA#5.

[mineralman55]

Several years ago I tried some experimental loads of AA#5 in both .357 with 158 grain LSWC and .44mag with 200 grain LRNFP bullets. Even staying at the low end of the loads, the amount of heat that built up in either gun was almost unbearable. After each cylinder, I had to let the weapon sit and cool for a few minutes. Accuracy was quite good, but the recoil was harsh. It quickly became obvious that AA#5 and revolvers was not a good match.
AA#5 is designed for semi auto pistols, and for that I find it to be excellent in both 9mm and especially .45acp. Use it as intended. There are plenty of other great powders for revolvers.

[NoSecondBest]

I've shot a lot of AA5 in several 9mm variations. Good powder for that. It didn't work out as well in the .357. If I use an AA powder in the .357, it's AA7. Yes, AA5 is usable, it's just not the best choice in the .357.

[USSR]

jhansman,

6.4gr of AA#5 behind a 158gr SWCHP in a .38 Special case is one version of what is commonly called "the FBI Load". Bump up the charge weight a couple tenths of a grain in a .357 Magnum case and you will have a nice and manageable load.

Don

[eo1bart]

My experience with AA#5 and a 158gr LSWC pretty much mirrors what is in the Western Load Guide, and that is 8.5gr gets me 1,156fps out of a 6" barrel GP100. This is also a very accurate load.

avg. fps
Dardas-158gr LSWC 7 AA#5 962
Dardas-158gr LSWC 7.3 AA#5 1002
Dardas-158gr LSWC 8 AA#5 1081
Dardas-158gr LSWC 8.5 AA#5 1156 Accurate

[gwpercle]

357 magnum , Starline 357 magnum cases , Winchester sp primers.
NOE 358-124- TC-GC , cast lead, with gas check , sized .358
6.1 grains AA#5
Fired from a Ruger Blackhawk at 25 yards from a rest,
15 shots went into a 1 1/2 inch , one big ragged hole , group.
First time working with AA#5 and the NOE TC bullet....impressed with accuracy.
Not a bad load at all , this is not a hot load and I'm going to try some at 6.4 or 6.5 just to see how they do.
I'm somewhat impressed by AA#5 and the amount of reloading data Western Powders makes available on its site .
Gary