Browning Hi Power How do you carry?

[tipoc]

Correct. On a properly-configured 1911, pulling the hammer all the way back (beyond the full-cocked position) allows the hammer spur to depress the grip safety tang, thus releasing the trigger and allowing the hammer to be lowered -- if you can manage it without your thumb slipping off the hammer and discharging the firearm.

That was the rub. The Army placed the modified guns in the field with select units and it proved to be an effective way of lowering the hammer safely when a fella was standing still and paying attention. Alas! it proved less useful on horseback at a gallop, for a soldier running, or for a fella under pressure. Seems soldiers have to do that sort of thing occasionally. So the thumb safety.

tipoc

[JohnMoses]

The method I described is the 1 handed variant of the Mossad method. If you choose condition 3 carry and lose the use of 1 hand, or have something VERY important in your off hand, you will have no way to employ your handgun unless you train to do it one handed.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JohnMoses

The method I described is the 1 handed variant of the Mossad method. If you choose condition 3 carry and lose the use of 1 hand, or have something VERY important in your off hand, you will have no way to employ your handgun unless you train to do it one handed.

That is correct, but you didn't describe it as a "variant," you described it as the Mossad method.

That variant won't work unless your pistol has a rear sight that's sharp/abrupt enough to hook on something, and that something has to be strong and rigid enough to hold the slide against the tension of the recoil spring. That eliminates all nylon holsters, many (if not most) leather holsters, and possibly several kydex holsters (don't know, since I don't own any kydex holsters).

[tomrkba]

If you carry hammer down, you have the rest of your likely short life to get your gun ready. If you cannot get accustomed to carrying your BHP in ready to fire condition, then change guns. I recommend the HK P30 Lite LEM or many similar guns.

https://youtu.be/0FXHVjXPtJk

https://youtu.be/rVPiic-ELoM

https://youtu.be/ANAeGk5cw2I

[HighValleyRanch]

If you carry hammer down, you have the rest of your likely short life to get your gun ready.

Did nobody check my link above for carry down method? Hammer down, ready to fire when safety is deactivated.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Did nobody check my link above for carry down method? Hammer down, ready to fire when safety is deactivated.

But that method is not available unless/until you install an aftermarket conversion kit. That kit costs $124.95 in blue or $144.95 in stainless, and C&S wants another $90 (plus shipping) to install it. You may feel qualified to install it yourself, but my guess is that someone who isn't comfortable carrying cocked and locked probably isn't qualified to be doing moderately advanced gunsmithing work on a pistol's fire control and safety mechanisms.

https://cylinder-slide.com/Category/SFSkits

[HighValleyRanch]

Still, it is an option.

[rodfac]

As to carrying with a full mag and an empty chamber, I find that both of my Hi Powers take considerably more effort when racking the slide than do any of my other autos...that includes a half dozen 1911's of Colt, Ruger & Sig manuf., as well as 5 DA/SA Sigs of 9mm, .45 and .40 S&W caliber.

My BHP's are chambered in 9mm & .40 S&W, and both have original mainspring and recoil springs installed, BTW. Both guns' racking movements are heavy enough that I only carry them in Condition One...Cocked and Locked.

Lowering the hammer on them, for whatever reason, on a chambered round demands a very tight grip on the hammer itself, and with the support hand thumb blocking the firing pin...this is a major difference from the same operation with a 1911 of any caliber, and is perhaps my one gripe about the BHP, and I've been an aficionado for over 50 years now.

Best Regards, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Rod

[Kevin Rohrer]

[jr24]

Originally Posted by rodfac

As to carrying with a full mag and an empty chamber, I find that both of my Hi Powers take considerably more effort when racking the slide than do any of my other autos...that includes a half dozen 1911's of Colt, Ruger & Sig manuf., as well as 5 DA/SA Sigs of 9mm, .45 and .40 S&W caliber.

My BHP's are chambered in 9mm & .40 S&W, and both have original mainspring and recoil springs installed, BTW. Both guns' racking movements are heavy enough that I only carry them in Condition One...Cocked and Locked.

Lowering the hammer on them, for whatever reason, on a chambered round demands a very tight grip on the hammer itself, and with the support hand thumb blocking the firing pin...this is a major difference from the same operation with a 1911 of any caliber, and is perhaps my one gripe about the BHP, and I've been an aficionado for over 50 years now.

Best Regards, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Rod

Indeed, the hammer spring on my BHP is pretty tough. Working the slide or thumbing back the hammer are both significantly more work on that model over many others, and far more than simply using the safety.

[T. O'Heir]

"...just like JMB designed it..." As mentioned, JM did not fully design the BHP. He did not include the silly mag safety either. That was put in by Saive to comply with European police requirements. Since the BHP was not designed for military issue. Despite its huge success doing that.
I'm kind of surprised this wasn't discussed on your CCW course. How to safely carry any firearm is important. Safety is primarily in the head of the user. One's experience makes a huge difference. Keep in mind that you are not going into combat.
Anyway, the most comfortable method of carry is very subjective. Has as much to do with your shape as anything else. So is how you carry. A BHP can be carried the same way any 1911A1 is carried (a la Cooper's Conditions) with no fuss.
"...the Mossad method..." That is not for a new CCW guy.
"...thought it was a SMG..." Somebody tried to do a trigger job without knowing how. Mind you, I know a guy who had a semi'd Uzi that would go FA with light cast bullet reloads.
"...The Army had different terms..." Yep. And it was "OUR WAY OR ELSE!". snicker. That's usually Cooper's Condition 3. Military pistol use is not universal. Not everybody gets one. Pistols are status symbols and for those whose job doesn't allow hauling a rifle around. Pistols are for last ditch, "OMG! Where'd I put my rifle?", situations.
"...spur hammer back around '70-'71..." There were spurs long before then.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Pistols are status symbols and for those whose job doesn't allow hauling a rifle around. Pistols are for last ditch, "OMG! Where'd I put my rifle?", situations.

Mr. O'Heir, please remember that you are in Canada, which does not have an analog to the U.S. Second Amendment. I have carry licenses/permits from five states and I'm legal to carry in something like 40 or our fifty states. I do NOT consider my pistols to be "status symbols." Status symbols are shown off and bragged about. I carry concealed so that -- unless I goof -- nobody knows I;'m carrying. And I tell as few people as possible that O own firearms. I suspect that's true for a great many members of this site (and other "gun" sites), and this does not fit the pattern of guns as status symbols.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Mr. O'Heir, please remember that you are in Canada, which does not have an analog to the U.S. Second Amendment. I have carry licenses/permits from five states and I'm legal to carry in something like 40 or our fifty states. I do NOT consider my pistols to be "status symbols." Status symbols are shown off and bragged about. I carry concealed so that -- unless I goof -- nobody knows I;'m carrying. And I tell as few people as possible that O own firearms. I suspect that's true for a great many members of this site (and other "gun" sites), and this does not fit the pattern of guns as status symbols.

I believe he is saying that pistols are status symbols for those in the military, which is something he has repeated often. I tend not to agree. The guards on many military installations are often armed directly with pistols, with rifles being some distance away in a guard shack, TOC, etc. Military guards and military police certainly use their firearms on occasion. We’ve had a number of shootings on military installations, from Fort Hood, to the Washington Naval Yard, to Pearl Harbor. Those pistols are more than status symbols.


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[jr24]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I believe he is saying that pistols are status symbols for those in the military, which is something he has repeated often. I tend not to agree. The guards on many military installations are often armed directly with pistols, with rifles being some distance away in a guard shack, TOC, etc. Military guards and military police certainly use their firearms on occasion. We’ve had a number of shootings on military installations, from Fort Hood, to the Washington Naval Yard, to Pearl Harbor. Those pistols are more than status symbols.


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Indeed.

I have a cousin who served quite some time as a Balckhawk pilot (both Gulf Wars, Afghanistan) and he certainly didn't view his M9 as a decoration, I recall him compalining when he had to spend some time in Egypt and they didn't allow them to keep their sidearms, he said he felt pretty uncomfortable without it.

[dogtown tom]

As much as I believe T. OHeir's posts are generally poppycock, I agree with him on this one.

"Status symbol" can mean several things.
For example WHO was traditionally issued a handgun in the military.....it's their "status" as an officer, a pilot, MP's or security forces. Your average infantryman was not generally issued a handgun.

Therefore if you were issued a handgun it was due to your rank, assignment or need to have a handgun in lieu of a rifle or carbine......ie status.

[TunnelRat]

To me the term “status symbol” carries much different connotations than rank or assignment or purpose, which is what you’re describing.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/.../status-symbol

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...tatus%20symbol


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[dogtown tom]

Anyone remember these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_pistol

[TunnelRat]

All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. Just because there are pistols that are used by general officers as primarily status symbols doesn’t negate all of the other roles filled by pistols in the military that have been mentioned at this point.

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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

Anyone remember these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_pistol

Sure - but a small run of custom-made sidearms that are issued only to generals isn't (IMHO) any proof that sidearms overall are nothing but a status symbol, even in the military. That General Officers Pistol has been replaced by a specially tuned and finished version of the M9. How many M9s has the Department of Defense purchased since it was adopted 35 (or so) years ago? Out of all those, how many have been customized into General Officers Pistols? 1 percent, maybe? 1/10th of one percent, maybe?

One of my veteran friends was a tanker. His issue sidearm when he first went in was the M1911A1. That later changed to the M9. It wasn't a status symbol -- it was his duty weapon. (Along with that big pipe on the roof, of course.)

[rodfac]

Just because there are pistols that are used by general officers as primarily status symbols doesn’t negate all of the other roles filled by pistols in the military that have been mentioned at this point.

Well said, Tunnel. I would rather have gone without my boots, on two tours in Vietnam, than to be deprived of my side arm. It was literally never out of reach, 24/7 for the entirety of my tours. I was disarmed only once, when I had to attend a meeting with 7AF's commander...and that lasted less than twenty minutes. Ask any GI or Marine with a combat MOS, and they'll most likely tell you they wanted an issue pistol regardless of the TO&E regulations. Unfortunately, REMF's in starched fatigues and shinny boots, controlled most issuing. Rod

[Seven High]

Is there any information available about the General Officer Model ever being used in a combat situation?

[tex45acp]

IWB Carry:


OWB Carry:

[Kirrich]

Cocked and locked!

[Jack19]

IWB, cocked and locked.

[tipoc]

Anyone remember these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_pistol

I remember them.

They were issued to some officers who complained that the 1911 was too heavy for an officer to haul around all day. The Colt M1903 was taken out of service as standard issue for officers and the army expected them to have a weapon on them. This gun however has nothing to do with the status symbol discussion.

The status symbol discussion was on the wane by the beginning of the 20th century, but like a lot of things in the gun world it sticks around.

It was the case that most European armies that only officers, and a special few units (artillery, cavalry, etc.) were allowed to carry handguns. The infantry generally carried only rifles. The pistols of the officers with minor calibers and smaller pistols. These were more intended for shooting disobedient troops in teh head than actual combat. For generals and such who often never saw combat, except at a safe distance, they were status symbols.

However that was never the case with the British Army. The Officers in front ranks carried large caliber revolvers up till WWII. Generally the 455. More troops were issued revolvers during the first WW by England.

In the U.S. the infantry was generally armed with rifles but by WWI were increasingly issued handguns. First the 1911 and then the M17 revolvers of Colt and S&W.

Both Britain and the U.S. had learned the value of 45 caliber handguns in the hands of line troops in practice. Pershing insisted that his infantry be armed with handguns in 45 caliber.

Germany also learned that lesson leading up to WWI. It armed it's troops with guns in 9mm.

Now many rear staff officers of these armies carried smaller light weight pistols at their desk jobs. Partly status.

But increasingly in the 20th century major powers provided their soldiers with sidearms.

tipoc