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Old June 19, 2024, 10:16 AM   #1
Skans
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Pistol Brace Question....

Now, I have never owned a pistol brace nor fired a gun that has one. I certainly am aware of what a pistol brace is and how they can be used. And, I have no objection to them at all (in fact think the whole issue of whether legal or not is nonsense).

But, here's my question. How many of you who have pistol braces actually use them they way they were designed to be used - i.e. somehow clamped onto your arm? I just assume that most people use pistol braces as a makeshift stock that can be shouldered. Am I wrong about that?
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Old June 19, 2024, 10:26 AM   #2
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I've always wondered if a Mare's Leg lever action was just a mishapen pistol brace.
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Old June 19, 2024, 11:16 AM   #3
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I used mine to make the pistol cooperate and lean in a corner of the safe like the other guns.
Otherwise, I have no real use for it. I never shouldered a pistol
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Old June 19, 2024, 11:26 AM   #4
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I've always wondered if a Mare's Leg lever action was just a mishapen pistol brace.
The "Mare's Leg" is a Hollywood fantasy gun, made to look "cool" and different to give the character something visually unique for TV.

It was not made for actual use, it was a TV prop gun. Real guns in that configuration are being made and sold today, but they are novelty items, not well suited for anything else.
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Old June 19, 2024, 03:19 PM   #5
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For myself, I recognize my inner ears play a significant role in my equilibrium and stability shooting. I can stand steady best with my head naturally erect with my ears level.
Contorting myself out of shape to accommodate an unnatural stock is not helpful.
The gross incompetence of the BATF playing fickle games with the definition of a legal AR pistol was costly and annoying. I just wanted to build a legal, compliant pistol based on the published rules. The "vague game of bureaucracy" was played.

I simply eliminated the brace. I don't have one. I have a short,bare buffer tube.
It does not serve as a shoulder stock. It does not contact my shoulder.It does not transmit recoil. It gets pressed against my face ,in spotweld fashion. The buffer tube does not even reach my ear.

Its not meant for bullseyes or 300 yd prairie dogs. It will counter threats to 100 yds quite well. Few SD situations require more. Just leaving is generally better than a gunfight. Less paper work,at least!

As far as the original intent of the brace,(to accommodate disabled Veterans,) I say give them whatever they need.

Anyone who would target the disabled deserves the full fury.
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Old June 19, 2024, 04:21 PM   #6
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Old June 19, 2024, 09:10 PM   #7
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Count me as at least one person who has actually used a brace for its intended purpose. Over an 18 month period of time, I had three surgeries on my left (support) hand, resulting in my inability to shoot a rifle normally. My AR pistol is no lightweight, so it was a challenge to use as intended, but I did so, nonetheless. Thankfully, while I still haven't regained much mobility in my left thumb, at least I've gotten back most of the overall functionality of my left hand, making most types of shooting doable again.


Frank


p.s. And I absolutely love my Mare's Leg!
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Old June 19, 2024, 10:24 PM   #8
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p.s. And I absolutely love my Mare's Leg!
Ok, but do you shoulder it?? hold it up in front of you?? or shoot from the hip?
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Old June 20, 2024, 05:34 AM   #9
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I guess it could be shot from a rest, like a Contender?

Wrist angle would be very awkward, for me at least.

The adds with the ranch hand working fence with one hanging from his hip are a bit comical
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Old June 20, 2024, 07:48 AM   #10
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Answering this question may incriminate you.
He's not kidding. Social media posts and forum posts have been used as evidence before. Don't be dumb. Hunter Biden was just convicted of felonies based on digital media.

An admin should lock this thread.
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Old June 20, 2024, 08:36 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
He's not kidding. Social media posts and forum posts have been used as evidence before. Don't be dumb. Hunter Biden was just convicted of felonies based on digital media.

An admin should lock this thread.
I had no intention of getting anyone in trouble here. Not owning a pistol brace myself, I was genuinely interested in what people who do had to say on this topic.

And, as I think about it, Steve, you may have a point. So, if you are inclined to answer, then perhaps answer it in the 3rd person.

Having said that, I don't think BATFE can make it illegal to shoulder a gun with a pistol brace as long as the device itself is legal to have on the gun. They just don't have that power, or at least I don't believe they do. It would be like allowing bump-stocks on a rifle, but declaring it "illegal" if you use them to increase your rate of fire.
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Old June 20, 2024, 09:18 AM   #12
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I don't think there was ever any intent in getting someone in trouble, but the ATF still considers pistols with braces to be SBRs and has ordered them removed and destroyed unless registered as an SBR. They don't care if you shoulder them or not.

A federal judge in Texas has said the ATF has overstepped, but the ATF can appeal that decision and possibly win their case making them banned once again.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/pisto...s-and-the-atf/

I wish we lived in a free country but we don't and the justice system is currently being used as a weapon to attack people who aren't establishment Democrats. The more legal gun owners in jail the better according to them. If you're an illegal gang member then the feds want to give you a pre-paid credit card and a free swanky hotel room, just as long as they remember who to vote for.
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Old June 20, 2024, 10:54 AM   #13
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I’ve shot two with pistol braces.

One, two handed, held away from the body, like a pistol. I found it awkward to use the sights, and too heavy for my liking.

The other, was shot from about waist height, as if t is set up as a goofball/soda can launcher.

I never bought a brace, figuring the ATF would be flip flopping their decision, not unusual for them, and didn’t want that can of worms. Instead I picked up a lower to go the SBR route.
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Old June 20, 2024, 11:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Skans View Post

Having said that, I don't think BATFE can make it illegal to shoulder a gun with a pistol brace as long as the device itself is legal to have on the gun. They just don't have that power, or at least I don't believe they do. It would be like allowing bump-stocks on a rifle, but declaring it "illegal" if you use them to increase your rate of fire.
That is exactly what they said. For a period of time when BATF was going back and forth with different interpretations of the regulations, they said pistol braces are legal but not if you shoulder the weapon and use it like a shoulder stock.

Last edited by 44caliberkid; June 20, 2024 at 11:54 AM.
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Old June 20, 2024, 12:01 PM   #15
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Having said that, I don't think BATFE can make it illegal to shoulder a gun with a pistol brace as long as the device itself is legal to have on the gun. They just don't have that power, or at least I don't believe they do.
THEY believe they do. Or, rather, did.

Quote:
..the ATF still considers pistols with braces to be SBRs and has ordered them removed and destroyed unless registered as an SBR. They don't care if you shoulder them or not.
Their actions indicate that they do care. OR did....

and I say "did" because of the Supreme Court ruling recently issued stating they exceeded their legal authority doing what they did. IF I'm understanding the garbled mess reported by the popular media correctly.

To get a better understanding of the situation, it is necessary to "de-clutter" the discussion and understand that the general terms most often used are misleading and not 100% accurate.

First, its not ALL pistols, and all braces. It is primarily AR type pistols and braces physically attached to the gun. (and if you had a similar set up on an AK pistol, they would count that the same)

Next, it is the ATF deciding to drastically change the classification that they had used for decades (essentially since 1934) about what is and isn't a "stocked pistol /Short barrel rifle".

For generations the definitions in law were used, about what is, and isn't a "stock", and essentially, the deciding factory was what the object was designed to do. Simply put, a stock is designed to be placed against the shoulder, and a brace is not.

With the exception of certain stocked pistols as Curio & Relic items, a stocked pistol was, and is an NFA item. ATF looked at, and ruled on the AR pistol braces (and others) and ruled that they were NOT stocks, because they were not designed to be stocks, and therefore, not NFA items.

This was the rule and the way it had always been interpreted.

Until U Tube. Officially, the videos "didn't matter" and "had nothing to do with the ATF changing its rules". Yeah, right...

Before a lot of people posted video (for the entire world to see) of them using pistol braces AS stocks, and doing the equivalent of thumbing their noses at the ATF, the agency either didn't care, or care enough to take any action or change their interpretations. AFTER the videos, they did.

Essentially what the ATF decided to do, was change their classification, based on that SOME people were DOING with the items, and disregarding the age old criteria of what the item was designed to do, changing the classification based on what some people were doing, which was essentially a misuse of the designed intent.

Basically the ATF said "Fine, if you are going to use is as a stock, then we will say it IS a stock, and since it now IS a stock, the gun it is on is NOW an NFA item, and you must either remove the brace, or register it as an NFA item, or surrender the item to the govt, or face prosecution.

They even went so far as to offer an "amnesty period" where you could register the "stocked pistol" without having to pay the tax.

My understanding, at this time is that the Supreme Court has ruled that the ATF did not have the legal authority to do that. We'll see exactly how this all shakes out in the future.
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Old June 20, 2024, 12:28 PM   #16
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@44 AMP, you have provided one of the best explanations I've read on the legal status of pistol braces, including why ATF did what it did. Thank you for that!

The only pistol AR I have and have ever shot is an older Carbon-15 made by Professional Ordnance (believe it or not, its a reliable plinker). I've just never found the need or desire to add stocks to semi-auto pistols. Maybe I'm missing out? It's just that in semi-auto, these "large" pistols are more fun than anything I'd seriously use. So, in (perhaps naively) asking this question, I just wanted to know the utility of these stocks. I've got a friend who has one, maybe he will let me try his out.
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Old June 20, 2024, 01:25 PM   #17
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44 AMP,
I wonder if anyone has created an SBR with a Mares Leg?
I could see the powers at be reviewing the application saying, WT Hell is this yokel wanting to do!
I could also see it being an excellent hog gun.

Weren’t there quite a few Winchester and Marlins special ordered with barrels shorter than 16”

If this needs to be moved to the rifle section, no worries.
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Old June 20, 2024, 02:35 PM   #18
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I'm old fashioned. A man should shoot his pistol with one hand, as God intended. They don't call them handsguns. Or strapped-to-your-arm guns.
The Lone Ranger would scoff at you, as that's Wild-Wild-West nonsense, Jim.

But with all this lawyering about machine guns that ain't machine guns, short-barreled rifles with super crappy butt stocks and sawed-off no-it-ain't-it's-a-rule-beater shotgun... well.. it's all fun until some bad apple spoils it for the rest of us.

Next, someone's gonna get the votes to pass some unpleasant laws because of too much literal interpretation. But then, that's what law is... the literal interpretation of what is written down. Uh... until we talk about Heller.

Sorry to raise any hackles.
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Old June 20, 2024, 04:45 PM   #19
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it's all fun until some bad apple spoils it for the rest of us.
This is, essentially, the root cause of many of our problems, and many of our laws, particularly in recent decades.

Its a "social" thing, essentially a medieval attitude that people simply refuse to get rid of, or today even recognize its origins.

The idea that THINGS (inanimate objects) are responsible for evil had been profitable for the church and the ruling classes for hundreds of years.

Back then the idea (and made custom, or law) was that if something injured or killed someone, it was because it was possessed by evil (the Devil, or some lesser demon) and since it was obvious you couldn't control it, then, for public safety, it had to be surrendered to the Church, or the Crown's local representative.

This "removed" the danger and also happened to benefit the purse of the Church or the Crown (if they weren't the same thing). IF your wagon ran over someone, you might lose it, as it was possessed by evil. If someone got killed in your flour mill, you might lose the entire property, again, for the same reason. And the ruling classes had a vested interest in seeing this rule enforced. It was profitable for them.

Today many people still operate under that basic premise, things can be evil, though the influence of the church is much, much less, and the idea of demonic possession of inanimate objects is skoffed at, people still think that things can be evil and can cause people to do evil with them.

I don't see that as rational, particularly in our enlightened age.

what we have today is lots of people, that, when someone does something evil, or even just stupid, saying "there ought to be a law!!". And there often already is, just one that was ignored, or deliberately broken.

And its not just guns. Its ANYTHING, and nearly everything, when someone misuses or abuses it and harm results there is a hue and cry to ban it! BAN IT! BAN IT!!!!!

Unless, of course, its something useful in the lives of the ban it crowd, in which case they usually shut up. But if not, they're more than happy to demand it be taken away, from YOU.

Furher complicating sensible governance is that the "its bad ban it" people's vote count the same as rational people's votes, and what's a poor politician to do, eh??

As a non gun example of the mindset, a few years ago, several high school students went to a college frat party, where they drank and took a certain energy drink.

One died, the rest got extremely ill, hospitalization required. They were underage drinking, and took the energy drink in complete violation of the instructions on the bottle. (took waay too much, and with alcohol)

The official response from the state was to BAN the sale of that specific energy drink (in that state)

Gun Control (all of it) is essentially the same kind of warped logic. Some "bad apple" misuses a gun and everyone gets restricted as a result. A very flawed result.

Its a bit of cruel irony that we are repeatedly told not to judge members of any religious, ethnic, political or social group on the actions of a few individuals, but gun owners don't get that protection.

We are informed (by law? perhaps) when buying stocks that "past performance is no guarantee of future results, be we have to pass a background check to legally buy a firearm from a licensed dealer, these days.

There is a huge double standard at work here. We are considered to be adults capable of making our own, valid decisions about who we vote for, but once elected, we are generally treated as minor children, (and not particularly bright ones) incapable of making our own choices, including obeying the law. Some evil thing will overpower our free will and force us to do evil, and therefore, the thing(s) must be restricted, or if possible banned and removed from society, completely.

This is, after all, the 21st century, why are we still doing this??

Because someone in authority makes a profit from it, I suppose.

I would remind all that no firearm of ANY kind was used by the 9/11 terrorists, just a common everyday tool, a box cutter.

Thousands killed, did they ban boxcutters?? No. Did they ban airplanes?? Hell no. They barely ban terrorists, who, by definition don't obey laws anyway....

thoughts?
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Old June 20, 2024, 05:43 PM   #20
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The 21st century has replaced the "Church or the Crown" with government officials, and their friends.
Rules made by those who already have it for those who are trying to get it.
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Old June 22, 2024, 01:21 PM   #21
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The 21st century has replaced the "Church or the Crown" with government officials, and their friends.
I call that “statism,” there’s an official definition but I say it’s where worship of a central government is basically a religion of its own.
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Old June 22, 2024, 04:56 PM   #22
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Gentlemen, please confine your posts to firearms and laws relating to firearms. This is not the place to discuss either religion or politics.
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