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Old January 4, 2018, 09:26 PM   #1
briandg
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I wish I could train myself to do this.

I have always kept myself aware when in public. I have never spent a lot of time in stop and rob stores, until lately, I live on coffee from them.

When I walk into a business of any sort, I carefully look over the body language of the people to gather information relevant to their reason to be there. If I see someone furtively looking around, not paying any attention to the merchandise before him, reading the labels on a bra, etc, it indicates to me that he is not actually there to shop, hence, why is he there?

Several times I have spotted store security that way.

The thing that I don't do, and need to develop, is sweep the clothing up and down looking for weapons. It's become a more serious issue since the time that a concealed weapon used to be the big lockblade.

Obviously, one of the reasons I want to know if there are any armed people in my presence is that I want to know if any of them are scoping me out as well.
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Old January 4, 2018, 11:03 PM   #2
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I'll say this about that: If I walk into a store and I see someone furtively looking around, not paying attention to the merchandise before him, looking at me and sizing me up, etc, it indicates that he is not there to shop and is likely a threat to me. I would have my eyes glued on that person- AND THAT PERSON WOULD BE YOU!

Just a thought.
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Old January 4, 2018, 11:37 PM   #3
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Thanks. I never thought about that. you can consider me enlightened, and I'll stop doing that immediately.
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Old January 4, 2018, 11:51 PM   #4
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In this day and age, if you are busy looking up and down someone while searching for concealed weapons, you will most likely either get hit or get hit on! Don't cruise the shoppers!
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Old January 5, 2018, 09:40 AM   #5
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Certainly not at the stop and Rob.

Otoh, the one near my house was robbed recently, a guy with a rifle who shot up the building. The one down south is very educational as well.

We don't have many armed robbers,, but they tend to be armed when they find out that all they got was fifty and a slurpee, and get peeved.

I've stayed in my parked car and waited twice because a risky situation appeared to be unfolding
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Old January 5, 2018, 11:25 AM   #6
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If someone is armed or not is at most a secondary concern. Assume anyone who is acting out of the ordinary or as a threat is armed and you are preparing for the worst. You cannot assume all armed individuals are a threat as this thread indicates.

My example. Yesterday I was transferring some trucks and was at a retail storage lot. I was the only person in there and waiting for the truck I was leaving with to be cleared off and brought around front. My ride had already left so I was left without a great option of simply walking out.

There were two ladies at the counter who seemed remarkably apathetic about the overdue storage bill (I heard numbers in the couple hundred dollar range). I had moved towards the front of the store in a corner and watched one car pull up and the people wait inside it until another car came in. Six people now come into the store. Not a major concern just struck me as a bit odd. There is one employee and the people with the storage bill are now talking with some of the people from the car while the new person is attempting to rent a truck and seeming to have issues with appropriate deposit / identification. I figure this is not horribly uncommon.

One of the individuals is looking at the merchandise on the peg hook on the wall. Not out of the ordinary but its towing equipment and none of the vehicles outside are vehicles that anyone is towing with. She keeps getting closer to where I am standing so I move a bit out of the way. Now she is basically standing in a corner at the front of the store with nothing in it though her back is to the store. She has basically taken the spot I was standing seems to be, at the time, intentionally not facing the cameras.

I took off my jacket at this point, my CCW is still covered by my shirt, and held it in my off hand while moving to a bit better of a spot in the store. They left, no incident, and the truck I was waiting on was brought around.

Still struck me as odd. I was concerned about her behavior and the behavior of those in the store being out of the ordinary. Being armed or not... secondary. You can only pay attention to so many things and worrying about if someone is armed or not may make you not see other "tells"
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Old January 5, 2018, 11:45 AM   #7
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The thing that I don't do, and need to develop, is sweep the clothing up and down looking for weapons. It's become a more serious issue since the time that a concealed weapon used to be the big lockblade.
Quote:
I'll say this about that: If I walk into a store and I see someone furtively looking around, not paying attention to the merchandise before him, looking at me and sizing me up, etc, it indicates that he is not there to shop and is likely a threat to me. I would have my eyes glued on that person- AND THAT PERSON WOULD BE YOU!

Just a thought.
Exactly, and that behavior plays right into the antis' reasons why CC should not be allowed. Don't be that paranoid person that causes an incident with another CC person.
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Old January 5, 2018, 11:48 AM   #8
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The thing that I don't do, and need to develop, is sweep the clothing up and down looking for weapons.
Why do you think you should do that?
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Old January 5, 2018, 12:51 PM   #9
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Much of that visual assessment (or 'ocular patdowns') can be done covertly enough that no one else can tell what you are doing.

If you need practice doing it, go have a seat at the food court of a nearby mall and just watch people. Take someone with you and compare notes of who you identify as being 'sketchy' and why.

And as the two of you identify 'bogies', exercise your detail-recall ability. What were they wearing, height, weight, tattoos, piercings, etc.

This skill set does become second nature.
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Old January 5, 2018, 01:16 PM   #10
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If I walk in a store and see someone that appears to be "casing" the place...I LEAVE.

It is my responsibility to try to keep myself out of harms way...if something doesn't look right, I don't need to be there.
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Old January 5, 2018, 01:59 PM   #11
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briandg wrote:
If I see someone furtively looking around, not paying any attention to the merchandise before him, ... it indicates to me that he is not actually there to shop, hence, why is he there?
Actually, when you are looking at the other patrons to try and determine whether they are or are not armed, you are engaging in precisely the kind of behavior you are regarding as suspicious.

In fact, if we both entered the same store at the same time, we would both be looking over our environment trying to establish whether it was safe before we started looking at the merchandise, so you need to extend to others the same latitude you expect to be shown yourself in similar circumstances.
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Old January 5, 2018, 02:47 PM   #12
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I see talk often of "sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves" by people who insist they are sheepdogs. Aside from actual compelling actions which we hope to not be around to see and retreat at indication of when possible many of us cannot tell the different between wolves and sheepdogs. I know that people want to insist there is some obvious difference that somehow other "wolves" and "sheepdogs" should be able to pick up on to tell who is a "wolf" and who is a "sheepdog" but I doubt there is.
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Old January 5, 2018, 02:52 PM   #13
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It appears that every one of you is saying that situational awareness is a bad thing. There is not a bloody thing wrong with visually sweeping across a room, doing a quick assessment, and then keeping a peripheral watch on anyone who doesn't look right. It takes less than three seconds to see where people are and what they are doing as you step through the door, and nobody in the world will know whether you are looking at the people or just looking for the frozen yogurt machine. After entry, it's nothing at all to keep your eyes moving, rather than standing and looking at the can of coke in your hand. If I have seen something odd, I can observe and report what happened or do whatever other things are appropriate.

If you guys can't do this without alerting people to your actions, you aren't any good at it. It's that bloody simple. .


shootin iron, answer a single question.

Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.

Knowing who and what are in your vicinity, especially in a place that has an above average record for criminal activity is situational awareness. it is the right thing to do. Now how in heck is anyone supposed to be aware without looking?

Discussion over on my part.
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Old January 5, 2018, 03:01 PM   #14
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Even though Brian has chosen to exit the discussion (maybe he comes back) you do see a point. For all the talk I really do not care if you see me as a threat or not. If you mean me harm I prefer you see me as enough of a threat to move on and find an easier target. I am fairly dismissive when I scan of people who are not in reasonable physical shape and walking with their heads down. Does that mean I give extra attention to those in reasonable shape with their heads up and eyes moving? Yep. Sure do. In order not to I would have to be one of those people walking around with my eyes down and not paying attention.

The big question is not if you pay attention but at what point you label someone a potential risk and how that impacts your actions.
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Old January 5, 2018, 04:38 PM   #15
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Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.
Those same cameras would show that I was not wearing gang clothes, sunglasses and I did not rob the store.
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Old January 5, 2018, 05:06 PM   #16
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Actually, when you are looking at the other patrons to try and determine whether they are or are not armed, you are engaging in precisely the kind of behavior you are regarding as suspicious.
If you haven't figured out how to scan your surroundings and evaluate threats while remaining inconspicuous, you need to practice it until you get it right.

Its not that complicated.

Quote:
Let's say you walk into a store, you look the place over, and you see something odd, like three people who appear to be wearing gang clothes and sunglasses at night. They are spaced out and may be watching the witnesses and target. Then you turn around and walk out. Hey, you have just been recorded on security cameras as having walked into a place, casing it, and walked right out without any particular reason right before a strongarm robbery took place.
The majority of criminals out there are not as tactically minded as you believe them to be. And you are assuming that these criminals are always going to be dressed up as 'gang members'. Where I live, there is no dress code for gang members. Kind of hard when most of the year its cold and snowy.
And if these criminals are 'casing' the place, its usually done from outside. They know what they are after, and go right for it when they enter whatever place they are robbing. Get in, get out, quick as possible. No hanging around scanning the other customers, because they konw 90% of retail establishments have security cameras.
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Old January 5, 2018, 05:25 PM   #17
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The big question is not if you pay attention but at what point you label someone a potential risk and how that impacts your actions.
Some good stuff above (mixed in with some nonsense too, of course - the nature of online life!) about assessing the situation on entering a store or new environment.

A few people have responded as if this sizing-up has to take a bunch of time, or as if it necessarily involves ... suspicious ... body language on the part of the person looking around. It does not need to do either of those things.

I'm a big fan of paying attention to the people around me in a normal, everyday sort of way. When entering a store, for example, look around as if looking for the clerk, then make eye contact and nod. Nothing out of the ordinary there. You can look around much more slowly and more completely before asking where the bathroom is (and if the sign is large and right there and bloody obvious, so what? They get that question a dozen times a day anyway, and nobody thinks it suspicious that a person might look but not see even the most obvious sign.) These are normal interactions, not outside any norm that I ever heard of.

If someone else in the store catches me looking at them, a brief nod & smile in their direction (perhaps even a voice greeting, depending on the part of the country I'm in) easily takes care of it.

As for whether it's good to look around in the first place, I'd say it's downright foolish not to. It's weird that people are pinging on this as if it were a bad thing.

***

Signs of things maybe going south:

People out of place, doing things that are out of place for the location.

Nervous twitches, bouncing on the balls of the feet while looking around with quick darting glances.
Hands that clench and unclench at a person's side or in a hoodie pocket.
(Both of those are symptoms of adrenaline dump, plus the darting glance thing is often a check for witnesses. People looking to assess tend to have a more calm, smooth eye and face movement.)

Two people entering the store together while a third one stays outside (esp if outside person has the nervous twitchy looking around thing going on).

Car backed into a spot near the front/side of the store with the engine running.

A person leaning against the outside of the building doing nothing in particular with one knee up (foot flat against the wall) and looking around -- especially if two or three other people are talking to each other nearby. That guy may be a lookout for the drug deal, with a quick access weapon held in the crook of his knee. This isn't necessarily a sign of impending violence inside the store, but definitely a sign you want to shop elsewhere.

***

As for actions taken in response to most of this stuff, I'm a big fan of being elsewhere when it's reasonably possible, and in a probably-okay situation I'm a big fan of getting to a place where I can quickly and easily leave while I look for more information about what's going on. I'm also okay with never knowing the end of the story. Drive away...

The world is not going to come to a screeching halt if I decide to pay at the pump and not enter the store at all. Or if I decide to sit in my car for a few minutes before I go into the store. Or if I decide to leave the store abruptly and come back after the question mark has resolved itself.

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Old January 5, 2018, 06:05 PM   #18
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Signs of things maybe going south:

People out of place, doing things that are out of place for the location.

Nervous twitches, bouncing on the balls of the feet while looking around with quick darting glances.
Hands that clench and unclench at a person's side or in a hoodie pocket.
(Both of those are symptoms of adrenaline dump, plus the darting glance thing is often a check for witnesses. People looking to assess tend to have a more calm, smooth eye and face movement.)

Two people entering the store together while a third one stays outside (esp if outside person has the nervous twitchy looking around thing going on).

Car backed into a spot near the front/side of the store with the engine running.

A person leaning against the outside of the building doing nothing in particular with one knee up (foot flat against the wall) and looking around -- especially if two or three other people are talking to each other nearby. That guy may be a lookout for the drug deal, with a quick access weapon held in the crook of his knee. This isn't necessarily a sign of impending violence inside the store, but definitely a sign you want to shop elsewhere.
Excellent!

I'll add one: a person tying to look as if he is shopping, but who is not really paying attention to anything on the shelves, who is observing other shoppers.
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Old January 5, 2018, 06:17 PM   #19
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It appears that every one of you is saying that situational awareness is a bad thing. There is not a bloody thing wrong with visually sweeping across a room, doing a quick assessment, and then keeping a peripheral watch on anyone who doesn't look right.
I don't think anyone is saying not to be aware - the way YOU described it however, came across like you were going to be staring in a blatant determined manner that might make someone suspect YOU of being the bad guy about to pull something..so if you're description was misunderstood, then that is something else.
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Old January 5, 2018, 06:38 PM   #20
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There are good folks who train you in these matters with quality FOF (like Pax). Might look into it. Self-training is fine but only goes so far.

Of course, one may have to travel and spend a buck.
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Old January 6, 2018, 09:47 AM   #21
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Many of us can relate a story of suspicion while in a particular establishment, being retired Police I tend to see “situations” a little faster than Joe Shopper. One bright, warm and sunny day I was visiting my local gun shop (actually a town forty miles away) along with a fellow retired officer, the shop had only one elderly worker behind the counter.
Not to stereotype any race in this case a low riding POS pulled into a space near the front door and four young blacks in typical “ I am bad” attire leisurely exited the vehicle and separating into twos, with a deliberate space between groups, entered the store one group moving to the left counter and the second two to the counter on the opposite wall.
Both Fred and I used eye signals and each took a group as our main concern. The groups each asked to see a firearm...shotgun on one wall and hand gun on the other. The clerk, also retired LE, was very calm displayed one weapon at a time and remained right with the pair having a weapon in hand. The two groups were very vocal about wishing to see a weapon right then in order to separate one side or the other from the clerk and casting suspicious eyes at Fred and me standing near cover and obviously watching them intently.
Fortunately in this case the gentlemen made a few slurs about bad service and staring at Fred and myself exited the store and back to the POS where they conferred before leaving.
1. They dressed the typical gang attire
2. Even the POS looked gang related
3 Obvious separation out of the store and taking opposite sides sides in the store
4. Were visually concerned with Fred and myself and our positions of cover and blocking
The exit
5. Both Fred and I were sending out body visuals that we were not simply store Decorations.
I followed the young men outside at a distance and while Fred covered the door I walked to the lot wrote down the plate number and returned to the shop.
I fully feel that the three of us expressing defensive body language and locations covering gun counters and front door caused a planned “Grab and Go” to be abandoned by the four young gentlemen.
This was a situation that during its course of threat I felt I would soon be taking a young life, thank heaven they moved on.

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Old January 6, 2018, 10:42 AM   #22
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In my LE days I use to do a lot of stake outs. Its interesting to say the least, to watch people in stores. Esp. Liquor and Convience stores. People do wierd stuff. Not just the customers, but the clerks, esp. when they are alone.

As to sweeping clothing, etc. When I was an FTO, (Field Training Officer) I told my rookies to ALLWAYS assume EVERYONE is carrying.
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Old January 6, 2018, 01:24 PM   #23
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I'll say this about that: If I walk into a store and I see someone furtively looking around, not paying attention to the merchandise before him, looking at me and sizing me up, etc, it indicates that he is not there to shop and is likely a threat to me. I would have my eyes glued on that person- AND THAT PERSON WOULD BE YOU!
Why this popped into my cranium, not sure. During my CCL classes, instructed by a LEO that normally worked under cover / plain clothed, he told this story. Before CC was legal in Illinois he got a call to a Walmart. The report was a customer there that "brandished" a handgun. Two police responded. As they were walking the aisles looking for the person, his partner said in the ear piece radios that they use he spotted someone that was printing. Said he was in the next aisle, and was going to meet him at the end cap, to kind of get the "jump on him". He turned the corner and came face to face with the plain clothed LEO, thinking he was the bad guy brandishing.

Moral of the story. The guy you see in a store obviously carrying, just may be a law enforcement officer. So don't jump to conclusions too fast.
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Old January 6, 2018, 04:48 PM   #24
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I don't really care if people are armed. I do care if they're acting weird. Once I see someone acting weird, then I either leave or take a little more interest in trying to determine other things about them--like whether or not they're armed.

It's not generally necessary to carefully look people over, just keep your head up and pay attention to what's going on. When something piques your interest, then you can start doing the careful looking--or just GTHO depending on the circumstances.

Most of the time, people either just don't pay any attention at all, or they notice things and dismiss them. It's rarely a matter of missing a small detail. By the way, it seems that not dismissing things is harder than noticing them in the first place.
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Old January 7, 2018, 10:13 AM   #25
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Some of you folks have lived charmed and protected lives such that a cat from da hood is seen in your store and you've gone into OMG defense mode, classifying them as a threat. I grew up working in a very bad part of Dallas. Our store was next to a bar that was a hang out for a very bad biker group. There were numerous low class bars in the neighborhood. There were white biker gangs, Mexican gangs, black gangs, drug addicts, homeless people, twitchy people, and generally folks who would be considered socially undesirable is the pretty part of town. A lot were armed.

Gang members gotta do their shopping as well, eat, get gas, etc. They are often just as concerned about their safety as we are about ours. I would be surprised to see three gang bangers in my part of town at the local store who weren't looking around and a bit nervous. If I am on their side of town, I am going to be the white guy who is more out of context, looking around, etc., right? They're apt to see me as the threat, if we apply the same standard of being out of place and a bit nervous, checking out the surroundings.

People out of place in a given context may get a second look, but don't be lulled into a false sense of security that because you think you have spotted the gang bangers that you have a grasp of the situation. Often the people who cause trouble fit in the context of their surroundings.

Last time we went to Cici's Pizza (across the street from the mall in a "good" part of town), I spotted two other men who had guns, one hispanic, one white. Both appeared to be dads with kids, one with 3 kids and the other with at least one and they were a part of a large group of kids (some sort of outing, church group?). That was the most I have ever spotted at one location at once that weren't at a cop hang out or by a gun show/gun class. Maybe it was a threat or maybe gun owners/ccw gotta eat as well.

Situational awareness is good, but don't be pervy about it or you become the threat perceived by everyone else, the quirky armed person (yes, there are others who may catch you printing or identify you as likely armed) who appears to be nervous and looking around too much. If you have your "head on a swivel" in most normal contexts, particularly if you are out of your element, you are the weirdo. People will notice you.
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