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Old November 30, 2017, 11:56 AM   #151
K_Mac
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If your out of the fight when you're out of rounds you weren't in the fight to begin with.
What! If you are "out of rounds" in a gunfighft and your attacker still has ammo your ability to fight is limited at best. Maybe you have other options, but I would not want to bet my life on it.
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Old December 1, 2017, 03:35 PM   #152
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There's not a lot of studies out there without some kind of flaw, and most studies are police related and not self-defense situations by a civilian. We need to understand that some situations are just not going to go our way no matter how many rounds we have on us. You couldn't have fought back in the Vegas shooting without a well sought out position, a scope and a long range rifle. A Glock 19 would have been useless there without being in the building yourself and knocking the door down.

You also have to take into consideration that testimonies of how many shots were fired are almost never accurate, simply due to stress in the moment and forgetfulness after the fact. Which is why officers have a cooldown period before official reports are made to the higher ups.

Other situations require the "Get out of Dodge" method instead of firepower. If you walk down the wrong street at the wrong time and get faced with eight gang members, I guarantee you that you're going to be outgunned even if you manage to take one or two down. Other times you may be evenly matched and you're still going to lose.

What I'm getting at is that there is no real answer to the question except carry what you're comfortable with, and use some common sense. If you live in rough neighborhoods, you may want to up your round count. If you don't and want to be prepared for most normal situations such as a random robbery/carjacking, you may be perfectly fine with a revolver and a reload (or a NY reload if you can).
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Old December 1, 2017, 07:10 PM   #153
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If you don't and want to be prepared for most normal situations such as a random robbery/carjacking, you may be perfectly fine with a revolver and a reload (or a NY reload if you can).
Isn't a robbery or carjacking the kind of thing that we all prepare for?

How many attackers would you reasonably expect to face in such a situation?

What would be "normal" about it?

How would you expect to be able to reload while being attacked?
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Old December 1, 2017, 10:20 PM   #154
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By normal I mean not a situation that isn't likely in our every day lives, such as the Vegas shooting. We're far more likely to meet the drunk guy outside the bar that wants to pick a fight, or the lone guy popping out from behind a car in the Walmart parking lot that wants our money/someone walking up to your car at a stoplight/sign and wanting to force their way into your car. To be quite frank, if you need to reload a perfectly working weapon, you are probably in a fight you're not going to win without help to begin with. You try to get the heck out of there or at least find cover first.

I can come up with scenarios all day long, and I can find a way to lose them whether I've got 6 rounds or 15. I've never been in the military or been a cop, so I can't speak to such situations. I have however been in 4 different defense situations personally where I've had to draw, been on the wrong (not specifically targeted though) end of drive bys and lived in some ugly neighborhoods. I've tried to plan and prepare for what I feel is the likeliest scenarios first and foremost, but of course your situation may be different. That's why I don't say 15 is fine, or 6 is fine. I give examples and my opinion on what might be suitable for those examples. I'm by no means an expert tactical fighter and I sure as heck don't know everything.
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:03 PM   #155
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By normal I mean not a situation that isn't likely in our every day lives....
No situation requiring the use of force is likely in our everyday lives.
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We're far more likely to meet... the lone guy popping out from behind a car in the Walmart parking lot that wants our money/someone walking up to your car at a stoplight/sign and wanting to force their way into your car.
Why would you expect a "lone guy" to do that?
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To be quite frank, if you need to reload a perfectly working weapon, you are probably in a fight you're not going to win without help to begin with. You try to get the heck out of there or at least find cover first.
Yep.
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:12 PM   #156
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You're right, we're extremely unlikely to ever need to carry our gun, let alone use it. Some of us are just unlucky or have to deal with unfavorable surroundings. Lone attackers are still more typical than multiples, but that's not going to always be the case. It's just likely. It's been my personal experience that when multiples are involved, you're going to see it coming. The one guy stepping out from somewhere is a lot easier to miss (though our SA should be strong enough to make even that unlikely to be missed).

My experiences are the only ones I can speak on, but nothing is ever going to be only this way or that way. You just prepare the best you can and the rest is up to skill, luck and fate.
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:12 PM   #157
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I can come up with scenarios all day long, and I can find a way to lose them whether I've got 6 rounds or 15.
Its not about that. Can you effectively place the rounds that you have and are you using enough gun? Not all hits are equal, not all hits in the same place are equal.
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:19 PM   #158
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I can tell you for certain that not all hits are equal nor in the same place equal, that's absolutely true. I've unfortunately seen a few things and have seen well placed 9mm rounds not stop a person. I've also witnessed a man keep coming after hits with a 12 gauge (drugs). That was my point, round count doesn't mean much if you get into the wrong situation at the wrong time. You have to just take a look at your lifestyle, ability and what places you go and then make the best decision you can. And a good choice one day may be a poor choice the next. That's just how life goes.

Let me put it this way, if you're one who lives in or has to deal with very bad neighborhoods, a 5 shot J-Frame is not the smartest choice in the book. I don't anymore, so I feel okay with my .357s and .44s. But, I also own more than a few Glocks, Berettas, 1911s and so on. I'm not a one gun for every situation kind of person, and I don't believe anyone should be. We have no idea when we might have to go somewhere we'd prefer not to, or when a sleepy little neighborhood might get inhabited by MS-13.
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Old December 2, 2017, 07:51 AM   #159
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Tom Givens

Check out

Fighting Smarter: A practical Guide for Surviving Violent Confrontations

By Tom Givens (revised 3rd edition)
(Memphis, Tennessee; Rangemaster, Inc; 29 January 2015)

Chapter 13 – Training Priorities (pages 95 to 105)

In summary, his recommendations:

I would suggest the following as the skills that a private citizen should work toward competency in:

 Fast, effective, and reliable presentation of the handgun from concealment.
 The ability to accurately place several quick shots into an anatomically important area of the target at a distance of 3 to 5 yards.
 The ability to place an anatomically important hit in a reasonable amount of time beyond 7 yards out to at least 25 yards.
 The ability to reload the handgun quickly and efficiently, especially if it holds less than 10 rounds.
 The ability to rapidly move off the line of force (sidestep) without hindering the presentation of the pistol from concealment.
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Old December 2, 2017, 02:34 PM   #160
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Not all of us can sidestep or get off the X very quickly, especially bound to a wheelchair. The rest of it though is pretty spot on.
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