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Old September 23, 2017, 09:56 AM   #51
Psychedelic Bang
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I wonder if the Good Samaritan had something like the NRA self defense insurance, and I wonder if this would be covered.

The reason I wonder if it would be covered is because: the Samaritan has interfered in a criminal act. He was not originally acting in self defense - although he may have wound up having to act in self defense.


https://mynrainsurance.com/insurance...tcode=cdh02663
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:43 AM   #52
Bartholomew Roberts
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On a related note: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-7-Eleven.html
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Old September 24, 2017, 03:41 AM   #53
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The story above was about a cop that wrestled with and then shot a guy at a 7-11 convenience store parking lot 7 times. This happened in California.

I like to read the comments to news stories. At least until they devolve into the 'No, you are' and 'No, you are 10x' level. Most of the comments in this story are, IMhO, very much anti-gun, anti-cop. Many folk with the almost standard 'why didn't the cop just him in the leg?' and no one correcting them.
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Old September 24, 2017, 07:07 AM   #54
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here's the whole 7-11 video -- start to finish.
it would appear the assailant was absolutely, and maniacally, relentless in attacking the cop....
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/23...o-gunfire.html

The assailant had already been Tased... to absolutely no effect, and the officer was alone.
As usual, selective media editing of only the final seconds... is selective truth.
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Old September 24, 2017, 08:07 AM   #55
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I
Quote:
most seriouslydoubt that.

TheDA may conclude that the stare has insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable down that a crime has been committed.

But the standard of proof for civil liability is a preponderance of the evidence. That is a long held and fundamental precept of jurisprudence.

and, of course, nothing is "done" on the basis of one DA's determination. The next DA can change things.

Quote:
And yes I have experience with the criminal justice system here.
Civil liability does not fall within the purview of the criminal justice system.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...RO69Dit85HmtGw

There will be no preponderance of the evidence if there is no civil suit. Things are much simpler here than in DC, and move much faster.

It may not be the purview but many of us have been sued a few time for doing our jobs.
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Old September 24, 2017, 08:42 AM   #56
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There will be no preponderance of the evidence if there is no civil suit.
I am sure that what you meant to day is that there would be no need to produce evidence if there were no ciivl suit.

But nothing can prevent the filing of such a suit by someone with standing who has suffered damages.

At that point, the evidence becomes key to preventing further legal action under the law outlined in your link.

Quote:
It may not be the purview but many of us have been sued a few time for doing our jobs.
Irrelevant here.
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Old September 24, 2017, 10:41 AM   #57
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This is a hypothetical that probably does not apply here,but the good Sam was supposedly stabbed in the neck.

I'm taking it another step. Bad guy is down,but conscious. Weapons are on the floor.
The bad news is,I'm hit bad. Bleeding. Unsure how long I will be conscious.

If I go out,I'm at the bad guy's mercy.(He has not shown any so far)

What to do?
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Old September 24, 2017, 10:48 AM   #58
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This is a hypothetical that probably does not apply here,but the good Sam was supposedly stabbed in the neck.
The man who intervened almost certainly did so lawfully (though not prudently), and he had every right to avoid being stabbed again.

And he did so. He gained control of the knife.

Whether what happened next involved the use of necessary force or excessive force on his part could only be answered by the triers of fact in court.

The standards of proof differ depending upon whether it is a civil court or criminal court.
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Old September 24, 2017, 02:15 PM   #59
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First, the stabber was most certainly not justified in killing the robber, except in in the brief moment in which he faced an imminent threat of death,...
And if a single plunge, in that brief moment, had killed him then what?

Someone would argue that, "had he not approached him in the first place..."

"Excessive", reminds me of the over 130 shots fired trying to stop 2 people in Miami back in 1986. Seems like a lot, when your not there.

If the circumstances justify the use of deadly force and a steam roller was the only tool you had to stop the threat, would turning the threat into a mushy mess be excessive?
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Old September 24, 2017, 02:37 PM   #60
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And if a single plunge, in that brief moment, had killed him then what?
Justifiable, if he had had reason to believe that the immediate use of deadly force had been necessary to protect himself from the knife.

Quote:
Someone would argue that, "had he not approached him in the first place..."
Well, that would be a very good question indeed, from a "tactical" standpoint, but his intervention was almost certainly lawful.

Quote:
"Excessive", reminds me of... Seems like a lot, when your not there.
That would be determined by the triers of fact.

They were not there--they never are--but they would have the video.
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Old September 24, 2017, 05:30 PM   #61
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I am sure that what you meant to day is that there would be no need to produce evidence if there were no ciivl suit.

But nothing can prevent the filing of such a suit by someone with standing who has suffered damages.

At that point, the evidence becomes key to preventing further legal action under the law outlined in your link.
You are correct, you can do everything right and still be charged/sued. The BG generally brings the best evidence from the very beginning with a criminal record. Like the saying goes, you roll your dice you take your chances. Nothing will dissuade me from taking care of me and mine.
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Old September 24, 2017, 05:33 PM   #62
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But will you take care of others?
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Old September 24, 2017, 05:40 PM   #63
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But will you take care of others?
I retired after over 3 decades of taking care of others. Everyone has had the same opportunity to learn and prepare. If I jump in to aid a stranger are they going to pay my legal/medical bills or take care of my family if I am killed?

It would have to be a crime that shocks the conscience.
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Old September 24, 2017, 06:32 PM   #64
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Exactly.
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Old September 24, 2017, 06:41 PM   #65
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That's a pretty standard finding in the pro-social literature. The more horrific, the more the likelihood of intervention.

Example: A man is fighting with his ex. People not that likely to intervene even if armed.

A man knocks down wife and pours gasoline on her to torch her, intervention becomes much more likely.
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Old September 25, 2017, 09:55 AM   #66
hdwhit
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Quote:
Psychadelic Bang wrote:
I wonder if the Good Samaritan had something like the NRA self defense insurance, and I wonder if this would be covered.
The reason ... the Samaritan has interfered in a criminal act. He was not originally acting in self defense...
This is a good question.

It depends on how the policy was written. Like many "self defense" plans, the NRA plan has a reimbursement provision that will reimburse criminal defense costs once you are acquitted. This is because it is generally not legal to insure against criminal liability. To this, they then add a liability insurance policy to protect against civil liability. So to see what the Starbucks Good Samaritan might expect from an NRA policy look at what the liability portion covers:
https://mynrainsurance.com/getmedia/...cy-forms-12-16.

Pay particular attention to Section 1.A which sets forth what they actually cover.

And the NRA policy only pays after your other insurance (like the general liability part of your homeowner's insurance) pays, so it might make more sense to get your civil liability insurance from that insurance company that is already underwriting part of the risk.

And once you've got your civil liability covered, you can be more selective in shopping for your "criminal defense reimbursement" plan.
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Old November 3, 2017, 01:59 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
Therein lies the problem.

In every knife use demonstration by Michael Janich that I have seen on television, Michael has gone to great length to show how to use the blade for slashing key tendons, to render the attacker immediately incapable of continuing the attack.

I do not recall ever seeing him demonstrate stabbing, and it is my recollection that he cautions against it.

One reason for that may well have to do with effecting an immediate stop.

Another may well have to do with the difficulty of determining how much damage would really be required, and therefore how much would be justifiable.
Wow, so if a guy wears jeans/ leather your just SOL?
If you are Justified, the use force, if not then scamper away.

You can always counter sue, esp. If you are stabbed in the neck by an attacker. :/
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Old November 3, 2017, 02:04 AM   #68
IZZY
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
I retired after over 3 decades of taking care of others. Everyone has had the same opportunity to learn and prepare. If I jump in to aid a stranger are they going to pay my legal/medical bills or take care of my family if I am killed?

It would have to be a crime that shocks the conscience.
This is what it has come to? Every man for himself?
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Old November 3, 2017, 09:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by IZZY View Post
This is what it has come to? Every man for himself?

I look at it more along the lines of personal responsibility.
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Old November 3, 2017, 09:53 AM   #70
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Wow, so if a guy wears jeans/ leather your just SOL?
If you are Justified, the use force, if not then scamper away.
Read this once or twice, and reflect upon it.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/def...ense-knife-use
Quote:
You can always counter sue, esp. If you are stabbed in the neck by an attacker. :/
Good luck with that strategy.
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Old November 3, 2017, 06:45 PM   #71
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Countersue? What assests or insurance does a Starbucks robber have?

Does the National Convenience Story Robbers Assocation (NCSRA) offer insurance?

Now we are into the good old good samaritan story? Are you an immoral coward if you don't jump into a critical incident? We've done that (and every gun discussion forum) has done this endlessly.

How many folks live a life of diminished personal pleasure or a life of poverty to give to the deserving poor? Not that many, you buy expensive toys. Immoral? But if you don't risk your life in a property crime, you are a bad person. It has become a bathetic discussion.
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Old November 3, 2017, 09:40 PM   #72
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Just to let you folks know... so far no one is suing (as I said there wouldn't be!)

Chimenti chimed back one more time: “It’s not my lawsuit. I have no intentions of suing.”

http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/...174903981.html

Plus my search of Fresno's filing of lawsuits shows no lawsuit filed by Ryan Flores or his 'moma'.

But then Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer called the idea of Jerri being sued "ludicrous." And legal analysts commenting on the case expressed doubt that the lawsuit would go anywhere, saying that "unreasonable malice" would be difficult to prove.

Finto.

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Old November 3, 2017, 09:46 PM   #73
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Just to let you folks know... so far no one is suing (as I said there wouldn't be!)
Who the heck would go to the expense of suing that guy?
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Old November 4, 2017, 11:28 AM   #74
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Who the heck would go to the expense of suing that guy?
Strange...this whole thread had tons of post, especially from you, ABOUT the possibility of him being sued by the jailbird or his mama!

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Old November 4, 2017, 11:39 AM   #75
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Strange...this whole thread had tons of post, especially from you, ABOUT the possibility of him being sued by the jailbird or his mama!
Possibility, yes, of course.

The man's actions, which were unwise from the standpoints of physical safety, criminal defense of justification, and exposure to civil liability.

He seems to have beaten the odds on the first of these, but the clock runs for two years on the other two.

The link to Mark MacYoung's article on this. posted previously in this thread, contains an extremely relevant real example.
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