9mm v .357 power for Concealed Carry

[mavracer]

Even comparing a 3 inch barrel .357 to a 3 inch 9mm, you get similar results. Of course, this doesn't get into velocity loss of a revolver due to cylinder gap. And, if you do start getting into +P 9mm (which is a very common defense load) or +P+ (not so common), you kick it up even more.

The same 357 load gains over 300fps when going from a 2" to a 3".
As to cylinder gap thats only worth 5% and even my M&P340 is well over 3" from the back of the chamber to the muzzle.
also the 9mm load you used was already +p.

[absolute0]

Uuuuughhh...Krusty wants down now

[CDW4ME]

I'll add some additional data, since my choice of ammo wasn't sufficient for some.

Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE

Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE

S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE

Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE

There you have it, different ammo, different bullet weights... same conclusion I started with. I'm glad I kept a few old copies of Gun Tests.

[pythagorean]

You are using a Glock auto here. I automatically go for the .357 revolver every time.
Every time. Nothing beats the 125 gr SJHP .357 from Remington ammunition to this date. Nothing.

[jmr40]

SuperRuger,

I have as many revolvers as autos. I'm also smart enough to know which tool is correct for which job. Your lack of firearms knowledge is quite apparent. When you mature enough, come back and join in the discussions with us grownups.

[Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted by pythagorean

You are using a Glock auto here. I automatically go for the .357 revolver every time.
Every time. Nothing beats the 125 gr SJHP .357 from Remington ammunition to this date. Nothing.

Nothing?

[Sheikyourbootie]

I'll add some additional data, since my choice of ammo wasn't sufficient for some.

Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE

Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE

S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE

Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE

There you have it, different ammo, different bullet weights... same FALSE conclusion I started with. I'm glad I kept a few old copies of Gun Tests.

There, fixed it for you. You are cherry picking your ammo choices to support a false conclusion. The 9mm, is not, never has been, and never will be on a par with top end .357 magnum loads with respect to kinetic energy, momentum, and flexibility in terms of bullet weight and style of bullets.

In all fairness, the .357 will never match the 9mm in therms of magazine capacity, and ease of quick reloads.....357 Desert Eagle notwithstanding (weighing in excess of 4# wouldn't count as a concealed weapon and only 9+1 at that)

The Kahr PM9 I carried (until my wife decided she wanted that as her ccw) would spit a 124 grain +p+ round at around 1200fps while my 340PD spits the standard remington R357M1 125gr SJHP at around 1250. (I ended up choosing the 158 grain 38+p Buffalo Bore because I can shoot it faster and I'm more accurate with it than the 125gr sjhp)

For me to take this one isolated situation of my Kahr and my 340PD with these 2 specific ammo choices and saying the 9mm is just as powerful as the .357 in "concealable guns" is patently false and ridiculous.

My 4" service 6 is concealed IWB much of the time, and OWB when I can wear a long shirt untucked....it spits the Buffalo Bore 125 grain at 1590fps.....the Remington R357M1 at 1470 fps. Much more velocity, kinetic energy and momentum than any 9mm. The price I pay for carrying the revolver is WAY fewer rounds, and much slower reloads than the 9mm.

If you want the best of both worlds get the G20 or 29 (if you can conceal it) in 10mm. Now you are talking meeting and sometimes exceeding .357 performance in a semi-auto platform that is high capacity and asswhoopingly powerful.

[CDW4ME]

Sheikyourbootie "You are cherry picking your ammo choices to support a false conclusion. The 9mm, is not, never has been, and never will be on a par with top end .357 magnum loads with respect to kinetic energy, momentum, and flexibility in terms of bullet weight and style of bullets."

I go get several published reports that include various .357 bullet weights by different makers, but I'm "cherry picking" ammo?

I cherry picked the 9mm loads using just +P or +P+ loads, I never claimed regular 9mm loads were in the ballpark. I really do not see why this is causing such confusion / debate .

My results:
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,162 fps = 372# KE
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,182 fps = 394# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,212 fps = 405# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,238 fps = 433# KE

Published test with various ammo:
Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE

Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE

S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE

Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE

Summary: 9mm +P and +P+ loads are equal in power to typical .357 loads fired from compact pistols.

I thought some people might find this data interesting / informative. (Free education )

[Sheikyourbootie]

Once again, here is the data. Simple math. Consider it free education, if you can learn.

wt M.V. K.E. Momentum
127 1238 431 0.697 (out of the 4" pipe of your G19) (taking your word on this data)
125 1590 701. 0.882 (4" pipe of the Service 6) Chronographed
158 1000 350 0.701 (38+p out of the diminutive 1 7/8" 340pd) Chronographed

You can put all the plus in front of and behind the p you want. 9mm is in the same class as the 38+p

Your best loading in 9mm only has 61% of the kinetic energy of the .357 and 79% of the momentum.

Sorry, but simple math contradicts your "data". A little free education for ya

[mavracer]

I'll add some additional data, since my choice of ammo wasn't sufficient for some.

how about these
Buffalo Bore 357 mags

1. 3 inch S&W J frame


c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps=686fpe
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps=604fpe

and Remington umc 9mm from a 4"

Wt 124gr 147gr
Vel Muzzle 1100fps 990fps
Energy Muzz 339fpe 320fpe

looks to me like a 357 is about twice as powerful from a carry size weapon.

[crghss]

Free education? Still fail to to see what I was edumacated on. There is a bullet out there in 9mm that has more energy then another bullet in .357 mag. Yeah so, don't know why I or anyone else really needed to know this but ok if it makes you feel better. We now know

There is also a .380 ACP bullet out that has more energy then a 9mm. And there is a .38 special bullet out there that more energy then 9mm. Why would anyone need to be educated on this? Really? Please help me out here.

[MTS840]

May the force be with you, the 357 force that is.

All calibers can fail. Even the vaunted .357 Magnum.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...es?printview=1


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)

After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.

None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.

The OP was entirely correct in his assessment of the two calibers.

In the smaller, short barreled guns he mentioned, the 9mm loads he posted are fully the equal of the most famous defensive load in .357 Magnum.

[mavracer]

There is also a .380 ACP bullet out the that has more energy then a 9mm. And there is a .38 special bullet out there that more energy then 9mm. Why would anyone need to be educated on this? Really? Please help me out here.

I think it means if I get in the ring with a 68 year old Mohammed Ali and tie one hand behind his back and fight him to a draw I can claim the title of the greatest boxer ever

[mavracer]

In the smaller, short barreled guns he mentioned, the 9mm loads he posted are fully the equal of the most famous defensive load in .357 Magnum.

Wrong

the most famous defensive load in .357 Magnum

the 125gr earned it's reputation in a 4" barrel.
the 125gr from a snub does not equal the performance from a 4".
therefore no 9mm +P, +P+ or ++PPP+P++PP++ is equal to the the most famous defensive load in .357 Magnum.

[MTS840]

Summary: 9mm +P and +P+ loads are equal in power to typical .357 loads fired from compact pistols.

Notice the word "compact." He even names the barrel length in his OP.

Sept. 2006 Gun Tests:
Ruger SP101 .357 Mag (2.25'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,195 fps / 396# KE.
S&W model 60 .357 Mag (2.1'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,165 fps / 376# KE

[roaddog28]

Hi,

I have a Ruger GP100 4 inch that I was using with Black Hills 125gr hollow points and clocking well over 1500 fps. I have 9 mm pistols and even with all the +Ps in front and back of the 9 mm does not come close. I take my 357s any day. No comparisons.

roaddog28

[CDW4ME]

Concealed carry ballistic comparison class 101 pay attention!

This is not about 4'' barrel .357 revolvers. (Me banging head against wall) :barf:

Thankfully, I have the March 2005 issue of Gun Tests where they test high performing 9mm ammo, so you do not have to believe the data I chronographed.

Federal 115 gr. +P+ @ 1,294 fps / 427# KE
Remington 115 gr. +P+ @ 1,290 fps / 425# KE
Winchester 127 gr. +P+ @ 1,199 fps / 405# KE

Now, I have 3 different 9mm loads (by different makers) that equal the short barrel .357 for KE. WOO HOO, Oh yea!

Now, I'm not going to cut & paste any results I've already put on this thread again for people to ignore (again), but those additional 9mm +P+ loads are equal to the .357 loads I previously posted.

My point is proven, and validated, class dismissed.
This mud is kind of fun once you get used to it.

[MTS840]

I have a Ruger GP100 4 inch that I was using with Black Hills 125gr hollow points and clocking well over 1500 fps.

This is all very nice, but the OP never compared the 9mm with hotter .357 Magnum loads, a 4" revolver barrel or any other distraction in his original post. In fact, he specifically ruled out the 4" barrel!

He posted specific 9mm loads, specific guns and velocity figures he obtained against a popular .357 Magnum load fired in snub nosed revolvers!

So why is he getting all the grief? This information is not exactly new material.

9mm v .357 power for Concealed Carry
If we compare guns suitable for concealed carry, the 9mm in it's better loads is equal to the .357 mag with one of it's legendary loads.

I'm going to compare guns with approximately the same height & length. A 4'' barrel GP100 or 686 isn't IWB material.

Bullet diameter is the same.

My chronographed velocities (average for 5 shots):
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,162 fps = 372# KE
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,182 fps = 394# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,212 fps = 405# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,238 fps = 433# KE

Ruger Speed Six .357 Mag (2 3/4'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,248 fps / 432# KE.

Sept. 2006 Gun Tests:
Ruger SP101 .357 Mag (2.25'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,195 fps / 396# KE.
S&W model 60 .357 Mag (2.1'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,165 fps / 376# KE.

So what is incorrect or misleading about this data?

[KyJim]

If you don't like mud slinging then don't incite it by being rediculous in your loaded tests. Now apparently the number of posts indicates ones inteligence which means if Mr. Linebaugh wanted to join this site, on his first post he is considered an idiot. I also find it amusing that KyJim indicated the major difference in the 2" to 3" barrel and then gave his 9mm comparison the advantage of the 3". Sounds like a democrat trying to get elected. However this has gotten out of hand, INCLUDING ME, so i will leave it at the simple fact that the 9mm is in no way comparable to the 357 in my few posts opinion.

No, the reference to the number of posts was regarding the personal insults and that you had apparently not been here long enough to know better. Am I correct?

Intelligence can be measured many ways, but spelled only one -- unless, of course, you use a rediculous spelling.

As for me, I've said all I'm going to say in this thread. Go in peace.

[mavracer]

So what is incorrect or misleading about this data?

this

the .357 mag with one of it's legendary loads.

because it's legendary out of a 4" not from a snub.

Concealed carry ballistic comparison class 101 pay attention!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame


c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps=686fpe
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps=604fpe

600 is more than 400 every day all day now sit back in your chair there's more for you to learn

[Dannix]

Orignally Posted by mavracer
therefore no 9mm +P, +P+ or ++PPP+P++PP++ is equal to the the most famous defensive load in .357 Magnum.

Let's be specific here. 9x19. There are hotter 9mm auto calibers out there, as I posted on page 2, and we're talking drop in options.

[the357plan]

I think this thread was just started for an argument. Otherwise, why would you make the statement:

If we compare guns suitable for concealed carry, the 9mm in it's better loads is equal to the .357 mag with one of it's legendary loads.

Then choose to ignore ballistics for 3" barrel 357s. I've carried my 3" SP101 since CCH began in Texas. It conceals very easy.

A lot of what I read indicated the Remington was the preferred load. Anyway, out of my 3" SP101, the Remington 125 HP clocks 1330 fps and generates 491 ft-lb ME. I haven't found any 9 mm in that ball park. But when I carry, the gap is stretched even further because the gun is stoked with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. And whether you believe it or not, those two are a good bit hotter than the typical 357 ammo.

When I want to step down to the 9mm level, I'll switch to my 1 7/8" barrel 340 M&P stoked with some form of a hot 38 +p. If you want to say the Federal 125 HP out of a 1 7/8" barrel is equivalent to a hot 9 mm +p, so what!!! Using that 1 7/8" barrel, I have the versatility to span the range from slightly above a 380 ACP to well above a 9 mm +p (using Double Tap or Buffalo Bore).

Back to my original point. I think this thread was started for the sake of argument. I'm not the only one who conceals a 3" 357 magnum. And at that length, it starts showing its colors real well.

[CDW4ME]

the357plan "Anyway, out of my 3" SP101, the Remington 125 HP clocks 1330 fps and generates 491 ft-lb ME. I haven't found any 9 mm in that ball park. But when I carry, the gap is stretched even further because the gun is stoked with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. And whether you believe it or not, those two are a good bit hotter than the typical 357 ammo".

I never said the hot 9mm was the equal of all .357 loads available.

Even with your 3'' barrel and the Remington 125 grain .357 Mag producing 491# of KE, the Glock 19 with the 127 gr. +P+ and 433# KE is within 12% of your KE.

I have found and provided four different .357 loads and four different 9mm loads that produce comparable power from "concealable" guns. Four of each is enough to substantiate my original comments.

Glock Autopistols 1996 magazine.
These loads were fired from a G19:
Cor-Bon 115 +P 1,268 fps / 410# KE
Cor-Bon 124 +P 1,217 fps / 408# KE

These 9mm +P loads are as powerful as the previous .357 loads I've provided.

[the357plan]

These 9mm +P loads are as powerful as the previous .357 loads I've provided.

Well, while your at it, don't just stop at the 357... People (including me) do carry and conceal short barreled 41s, 44s and etc.. Your 9 mm +P loads also generates as much ME as this 44 Mag load out of a 2" barrel:

Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot Short-bbl HP @ 833 fps = 308 ft lbs. (Ballistics by the inch)

So go ahead and equate all you want. I would take this 44 load (and all of my 357 loads) over your 9 mm loads any day.

Again, I think this thread was started just for the sake of argument.

[HighExpert]

Which one can you hit with quickly and reliably..One good hit is worth more than 50 hispeed misses.