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Old August 4, 2017, 08:19 AM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
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I don't doubt DPD sent out the memo. I'm less confident about their capability to make that determination or the rationale behind it.

And anytime you ask a yes/no question and get several qualifiers appended to it ("with this weapon"and "as a result of this defect") that's a pretty sure sign you've got lawyers roaming about in the background.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; August 4, 2017 at 08:24 AM.
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Old August 4, 2017, 12:13 PM   #27
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Word on the street is that San Antonio P D also banned the P320 like DPD did. Just rumor at this point.
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Old August 4, 2017, 01:23 PM   #28
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Old August 4, 2017, 01:27 PM   #29
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^^^ Is there ANYTHING in this thread that can be verified as factual from an independent source?

FWIW the local news media in D/FW is totally silent.
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Old August 4, 2017, 03:54 PM   #30
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Well, it is easy enough to just ask Dallas PD: [email protected]

The problem is, that when you do and report your results here, you'll be just another random, untrustworthy, Internet source to most folks. Dallas is unlikely to issue any official statement on something like this until it hits the point the public information officer gets tired of answering the same request. Even then, it might just be an internet link or tweet vs. a press release.
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Old August 4, 2017, 04:39 PM   #31
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This info about SIGs response is on a couple different sources.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ols-drop-safe/

Quote:
Newington, NH (August 4, 2017) – In response to social media rumors questioning the safety of the P320 pistol, a variant of which was selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), SIG SAUER, Inc. has full confidence in the reliability, durability and safety of its striker-fired handgun platform. There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date.

The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

All SIG SAUER pistols incorporate effective mechanical safeties to ensure they only fire when the trigger is pressed. However, like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to not work as designed. This language is common to owner’s manuals of major handgun manufacturers.

As a result, individual attempts to perform drop tests outside of professionally controlled environments should not be attempted.

“SIG SAUER is committed to producing only the finest products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Safety and reliability have been and always will be paramount to the SIG SAUER brand.”

For more information on SIG SAUER, please visit us at sigsauer.com
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Old August 4, 2017, 04:42 PM   #32
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I don't think you can make a more affirmative statement. Good for SIG.
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Old August 4, 2017, 04:56 PM   #33
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As a result, individual attempts to perform drop tests outside of professionally controlled environments should not be attempted.
I think we are starting to get to the meat of the issue now. Interesting to see if the Dallas-approved fix will be a center slot type trigger safety.
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Old August 4, 2017, 04:57 PM   #34
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I am glad that SIG has released some official statement regarding this issue, or non-issue, as the case may be.

It still leaves a lot of questions unanswered, such as:

What "defect" did the Dallas PD identify in the design of the P320 that raised concerns with about a safety issue?

How did Dallas PD become aware of this potential "defect"?

Did SIG Sauer communicate with the Dallas PD regarding the P320 either before or after they decided to pull it from the approved service list?

Did the Dallas PD communicate with SIG Sauer either before or after pulling it from service?

What is the Dallas PD now doing to redress this issue?

What is SIG Sauer now doing to redress this issue?
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Old August 4, 2017, 05:24 PM   #35
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If Dallas P D re-approves the P320 that will be all that needs to be said.
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Old August 4, 2017, 05:35 PM   #36
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If Dallas P D re-approves the P320 that will be all that needs to be said.
Yeah but I am not holding my breath. To many egos involved in some of these organizations. IMO SIG's statement is all that needed to be said.
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Old August 4, 2017, 05:37 PM   #37
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Here is an interesting thought exercise. In what way do the approved 226 safeties and the disapproved 320 safeties differ?
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Old August 4, 2017, 05:41 PM   #38
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This should concern every Sig 320 owner. Or a least an owner in my area that would like to get rid of one cheap!
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Old August 4, 2017, 05:45 PM   #39
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Sounds to me like there is no recall or design change in the offing so 'tempest in a teapot' or 'much ado about nothing' seems what I'm going to get out of this kerfuffle.
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Old August 4, 2017, 06:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Interesting to see if the Dallas-approved fix will be a center slot type trigger safety.
The P320 is already available with that option.

https://www.sigsauer.com/products/fi.../pistols/p320/
SAFETY WITHOUT COMPROMISE.
Safety isn’t negotiable. The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol. And, while available as an option, you won’t need a tabbed trigger safety for your gun to be drop safe.
Quote:
Here is an interesting thought exercise. In what way do the approved 226 safeties and the disapproved 320 safeties differ?
It's virtually impossible to set off a hammer-fired gun with inertia if the hammer is down as the 226 would typically be carried. If the gun is dropped muzzle down, the firing pin safety will prevent a discharge. If it's dropped muzzle up, there's simply not enough inertia to cock the hammer and pull the trigger back to fire the gun.

A striker fired gun dropped muzzle down is the same as the hammer fired gun. But dropped muzzle up, all it takes is enough inertia to operate the trigger and the gun will fire. Because if the trigger operates, then the passive safeties disengage.

I don't have numbers for the P320, nor am I familiar with the internal design aspects of the system so I can't say much about it.

I can provide an example of what the trigger safety buys you in another roughly (very roughly?) similar design. I ran the numbers for a Glock dropped muzzle up from 4 feet so that the back of the slide hits first. Without the trigger safety, physics says it would fire. The trigger safety makes the trigger system essentially inertia-proof.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...#post-10179831
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Old August 4, 2017, 07:37 PM   #41
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Dropped muzzle up and the trigger bar would be driven rearward. The trigger bar has to go forward on the P320 to release the striker.
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Old August 4, 2017, 07:53 PM   #42
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I can't find a detailed explanation of the P320, safety; but the P250 safety was designed so that if you dropped it muzzle up, the action to lift the firing pin block was in a different direction than the forces working on the trigger.

SIG offered the P320 from the get-go with a center-slot type safety if requested as an additional safety feature; but claimed it was unnecessary in light of their advanced design.

Between the SIG press release and the Dallas PD memo, there are some interesting possibilities. In any case, it appears DPD finds the 226 safety system as OK; but the 320 system as a no-go. Since the two major differences are the striker and the modular frame, a safe bet suggests whatever imagined problem there is focuses on that difference.
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Old August 4, 2017, 07:57 PM   #43
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So in that case, it would be much harder. In the Glock design, the trigger bar and striker both move backwards initially to fire the gun so inertia works on both of them the same way.

In the P320 design the striker would still move backwards but if the trigger bar moves forward to fire the gun then it's going to be pretty difficult to get them both moving in the proper direction at the same time from inertia. That may be why they felt like they didn't need the trigger safety.
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Old August 4, 2017, 07:59 PM   #44
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Isn't there a drop-of-the-firearm warning issued in every pistol's owner's manual?
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:02 PM   #45
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Quote:
Between the SIG press release and the Dallas PD memo, there are some interesting possibilities. In any case, it appears DPD finds the 226 safety system as OK; but the 320 system as a no-go. Since the two major differences are the striker and the modular frame, a safe bet suggests whatever imagined problem there is focuses on that difference.
At first it was reported that someone at DPD had an AD dropping a P320 but they have since said that did not happen and SIG is on record as saying that has never happened in at least the commercial market per their latest press release. Then is seems that someone at DPD was concerned about the drop pistol warning in the P320 manual taking it to mean the P320 would most likely fire if dropped. SIG has since rewritten the drop pistol warning. Time will tell if that will be enough for DPD. If not there is an option to get the P320C with a manual safety.
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:07 PM   #46
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They didn't need to say it's possible for any loaded firearm to discharge when dropped.

Anyone with a brain knows that it's possible for any loaded firearm to be discharged without being touched much less dropped. To say something is impossible, just shows a lack of knowledge in exactly what is possible.
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:13 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigarms228
This info about SIGs response is on a couple different sources.
I received that same announcement by e-mail from Sig today.
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:15 PM   #48
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And the hits keep coming for the red faced DPD.

http://www.tactical-life.com/news/si...pd/#sig-p320-2

Rumors of Dallas PD Issues with Sig Sauer P320 Are False

Quote:
Tactical-Life.com has confirmed that the Dallas Police Department’s suspension of use of the Sig Sauer P320 was based on a miscommunication of a non-existent defect.

A blog by the name of GunMagWarehouse.com erroneously reported that there had been a Dallas PD training incident involving Sig Sauer P320. Specifically, the blog stated that the pistol “discharged as a result of being dropped during training,” which was far from the truth.

“The Dallas Police Department has not tested the P320 and has had no issue with the P320,” Sig spokesman Jordan Hunter told Tactical-Life.

There was never a “defect” with the P320. The confusion stemmed from an out-of-date manual that was given to the Dallas Police Department’s new lieutenant, according to Hunter.

Taking the necessary precautions with the older manual, the lieutenant temporarily suspended use of the P320 until Dallas PD could get in touch with Sig Sauer to clarify the issue.

A memo was issued to the Dallas Police Department detailing the temporary suspension, which someone leaked to another blog and the rumor mill began turning at a ferocious pace
........
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
I can't find a detailed explanation of the P320, safety; but the P250 safety was designed so that if you dropped it muzzle up, the action to lift the firing pin block was in a different direction than the forces working on the trigger.
SIG's P320 video at 1:55 shows the trigger bar moving forward to lift the firing pin block and release the sear.
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Old August 4, 2017, 08:51 PM   #50
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And the hits keep coming for the red faced DPD.
I certainly wouldn't bet against that version of events; but given how easy it is to make a public information request of DPD, that reporter did sloppy work in not getting their side of the story and relying on only one side in a situation with a fair amount of cash at stake.
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