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October 5, 2011, 01:16 PM | #26 | ||
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October 5, 2011, 05:11 PM | #27 | |
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Gary
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DNS has shown the best evidence, and your site seems to back up his evidence. I also do appreciate how your site errs with caution and many times even states this throughout the states' policies and laws. Your sight says that Colorado has the force of law.
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October 5, 2011, 05:51 PM | #28 |
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Boy I did blow that sentence didn't I. Sorry about that. But you wrote it how I meant to say it. Thank you.
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October 5, 2011, 08:58 PM | #29 | |
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October 5, 2011, 09:28 PM | #30 |
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Standing Wolf, I will call my Insurance agent tomorrow and talk to him/her. I will ask him/her that question. I will post here what he/she states. I will also ask him/her if I can use the name of the company he/she works for. If he/she says yes I will but if not I won't. I usually ask permission before posting something someone tells me using their name or their company name. My agent works for one of the major Insurance Companies. But I will get an answer tomorrow.
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October 5, 2011, 11:28 PM | #31 |
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One thing to remember about a business that post signs prohibiting the carry of weapons is that these folks are exercising their freedom to not allow carry on their private property. It is hard for us to talk about personal freedoms and then ignore someone else’s rights. Remember if you do not like the policies of a particular business than go somewhere else, but respect their freedoms just as you want others to respect your rights.
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October 5, 2011, 11:56 PM | #32 |
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I believe the OP specifically stated the "Denver Zoo". I this case, is not the Zoo a PUBLIC entity (owned by a governmental agency?)
If it is, state preemption over-rules the Zoo. Posting invalid and unenforcable, they would not even be able to ask you to leave, If the Zoo is a private entity, their rule is valid. The rule is, if it is owned by the government, the law is what counts, not the sign, or lack of sign. If is private property, the property owner can do what he pleases, and so can I. Posted, I just don't go there. Here in WA by law signs mean nothing, they have to personally ask you to leave, however, that is not how I operate. They post no guns, I will respect their posting, and send them a no-guns, no money card. |
October 6, 2011, 01:18 AM | #33 | |
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I have seen one insurance policy that prohibits customers from having guns, and that's a gun shop. I'll see if I can get a copy of the relevant part. While we're at it, I'll throw another thing into the mix. A couple of years ago, we had a major discount housewares chain move into town. As soon as you walk into the atrium, there's a big sign prohibiting carry, even from "those with a license." As it turns out, the owner's son was shot to death at one point. A polite call to the corporate office revealed two things:
Not everybody has our zeal for the 2nd Amendment. Many don't know that it's a right. Many others are under social or cultural pressure (some of it subliminal) to distrust guns and those who carry them. That's not going to change overnight, or with one law change. Awareness begins on the ground.
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October 6, 2011, 09:50 AM | #34 |
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I've made the eloquent elephant before. Search for if you like my prose.
It's basically the conflicting rights argument. I'm reading a legal scholarly book: Killing in Self-Defense by an Oxford professor. She asks why can we ever justify killing in self-defense? Isn't any form of killing bad in the abstract. All life has value. But she goes on to exam the issue. Two main reasons: Deterrence: Deterrence of future crimes doesn't cut it (big discussion). Her view is that of competing rights. The Rights Argument - you have the right to life through self-defense, that trumps the right to life of the attacker. My extension - if the right to your life trumps the power right to life of the attacker, certainly my right to life through self-defense trumps the right to control one's property if my exercise of my right doesn't threaten you on some technical grounds. The sensitivity argument has surface appeal but doesn't cut it either. For instance, a loved one was killed by a gun - thus you ban guns and diminish my right of SD. Or - you loved one was killed by a member of a certain group (religious, ethnic, racial, gender, geographic) - thus you ban them from your business (that's not acceptable as it diminshes their rights and their rights trumps your sensitivity and property rights).
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October 6, 2011, 11:00 AM | #35 | |
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However, gun owners have never been established to be a protected class. While the owner cannot ban classes of people, he can choose to disallow certain behaviors, which at the moment, includes carrying guns. In the case I mentioned, the guy was in his rights to ban guns. I disagree with the policy, and with the idea that banning guns will stem violence. However, by the time I contacted the company, I had no chance of convincing them to reconsider, as they'd already dealt with a steady slew of folks who'd been calling and screaming Ted Nugent slogans at them.
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October 6, 2011, 11:18 AM | #36 |
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Insurance Compay Policies and No Gun Signs
I talked to my agent this morning. They only write policies for Auto, Home, Life etc and very few Commercial or Businesses. But was told by the owner of this agency that she has never heard of any surcharge for not posting or a business being told they had to post their property. She did send me to another Agency that does business/commercial Policies.
This Agency represents about 120 different Insurance Companies. Over 20 of the Insurance companies she represents do a lot of Business/Commercial Properties. This Agency only does policies in WV and OH. She stated that she couldn't speak about policies in other states. She stated that she has never seen on any policy or list of items needing attention that the establishment had to post their property. She has never seen that they would be charged more in premiums if they didn't post their property. That this issue has never been mentioned to obtain insurance or an add on if they didn't post. She also stated that if the Owner or the business being insured kept a Weapon on the business property that they would have to pay about $100 more a year for insurance. She stated that there were some businesses that did keep a weapon at the business. A weapon does not have to be a firearm. A baseball bat, Club etc. She even mentioned that one place had a big sword. When they insured events etc that had Security and security carried firearms that there was no extra charge if the event was an outdoor type even or they were off duty police officers. Now if a bouncer in a bar carried a weapon they would pay extra like mentioned above to have their business insured as they would then keep a weapon on site but that it didn't matter if they had no guns signs to keep customers from carrying did not save them a penny and did not help them any when it came to liability. She went on to say that she has seen policies from different places around the world and has never seen were posting a No Gun Sign was required to get or keep insurance. That it never made a difference in costs of the insurance if they posted their business or not. This agency only sells insurance in Ohio and West Virginia. Other states could have laws that make insurance companies do this but she had never heard of this. Had never seen it but she did state that it could be possible. Insurance companies have a lot of regulations put on them by the states. So there could be a state or states that require this. But again she has never heard it or seen it in writing.
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October 6, 2011, 11:20 AM | #37 |
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But the problem here is 'behavior'. We forbid banning on the basis of religion.
Religion is a behavior - it is not an immutable aspect of your biology. You can change your religion (yeah, you can change your 'gender' - but not your chromosomes). Folks change religion all the time. Thus, protected classes based on behavior are possible and thus SD should be one. Why discriminate against folks who want to protect themselves as compared to believers in X, Y or Z? Some countries do ban behaviors based on religion or have debated it. In the USA - drug usage by some religions has been controversial. In France, the religious garb of some has been used to deny entrance to public schools. I propose that the behavior of carrying is directly related to the biological imperative of preserving yourself and thus has a more sensible and direct basis not to be banned as compared to a nonbiological based belief system - which you can easily change so as to go to that merchant. I do agree about sensitivity and proguns having sheeple tantrums get us nowhere. I recall after some school shooting, the principal being highly offended when some 'well-known" gun school started to bray about free gun lessons. While such might be nice, it was an offensive PR stunt and didn't take into account the emotional impact of such at that moment in time.
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October 6, 2011, 11:28 AM | #38 | ||
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pax earlier stated: Quote:
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October 6, 2011, 11:29 AM | #39 | ||
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Morals are subjective so claiming them as the foundation for your arguement is poor logic. As others have pointed out those who are handicapped are considered a protected class. People who carry a gun are not considered by the law to be a "protected class" and therefore the comparision is invalid.
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October 6, 2011, 11:38 AM | #40 | |
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You are not denied your rights - you have the freedom to go elsewhere As for mobility/folks in wheelchairs - the Feds are the biggest offenders of ADA. If there was EVER places that should be open to public CCW, it is every tax-payer funded building and location. When it is your house, you get to make the rules. When it is your business and your property, you get to make the rules BTW, I am not against CCW in business, but I AM pro-business rights |
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October 6, 2011, 12:07 PM | #41 | |
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First I will agree that in some cases the use of deadly force to preserve your right to life trumps the right to life of an attacker. I arrive at this conclusion because IMHO the attacker has forfeited their right to life by creating an imminent threat to your right to life. In these types of justifiable killings there is a immediate threat to your life and you are passive in the threat. It is being done to you and you do not have a choice to opt out. This is often the burden of proof required to justify deadly force. Shooting someone shooting at you is justified. Shooting an attacker who is fleeing with your wallet 15 yards away is not. Both have put your right to life in jeopardy but the law treats them differently. Your argument attempts to extend this to someone "posting" their property. In my analysis this analogy falls short. No one is forcing you to enter someone else's property. No one is forcing you to give up your right to life. At all times you have a choice. They are allowing you to choose by establishing the rules and conditions required for entry. The choice is still yours. Enter my property on my terms or do not enter my property. So in this scenario you are not the same as person being attacked. They are an unwilling victim when you enter someone else's property you are a participant. There is also no imminent direct threat to your right to life. Unless you are entering a building with an active shooter or you have knowledge of an imminent attack, which would change the scernio back to one of self defense. When you ignore that sign there is no imminent threat to your right to life and you have a choice not to enter the other persons property. There is a subjective perceived threat everywhere which is why one carries a gun but that does not equal a actually imminent threat which is the foundation of your self defense example. Since you are not entering property under an imminent threat to your right to life your justification for violating the rights of the property owner does not carry the same weight as in a defensive shooting. This is the point your attempt to equate these two scenarios has failed. The two scenarios of competing rights are not the same. IMHO they are not even remotely the same. One involves an immediate threat where the threatened party is a non-participating victim and the other is a matter of choice which does not involve an immediate threat to your right to life. You may still choose to ignore those signs. You might still believe you are in the right but so far you have not given a logical argument which adequately supports that choice IMHO.
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-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; October 6, 2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: clarifications |
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October 6, 2011, 01:39 PM | #42 |
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Remember, also, that those classes of people that have been used as analogies (disabled, religious, etc.) are particularly special because they are protected classes. Although the right to keep and bear arms is protected by the constitution, that right does not create a protected class.
As an example, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute. If I stand up in the middle of a theater and start yapping about the topic of the day, the management is well within its rights to demand that I leave the property. I happen to think that businesses that ban firearms, particularly concealed firearms, are making a poor decision because the person who has gone through the rigmarole to get the permit has demonstrated a level of commitment and responsibility that makes him a "safe" person. The guy who carries a concealed weapon without a permit isn't going to let that sign bother him. But just as I reserve the right to eject an individual from my property who isn't follow the "house rules", I respect those of others as a condition of enjoying their hospitality - regardless of whether I'm a visitor or a customer (although I have to say that, as a customer, I might very well take my business elsewhere).
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October 6, 2011, 02:08 PM | #43 |
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TFL is not a business, so when you pay us for posting - then ...
However, businesses and services are necessary to live your life. The idea of businesses discriminating was to restrict the fundamentals of life to classes of people. No services for people of color, no jobs for Jews and the like. Restricting your use of services could be quite detrimental to your life and welfare. Yes, you could go to another store but such laws and employment practiced denied you a life in entire geographical areas of the country and denied you the right to support yourself and family. Such practices were explicitly denied to do such. You have plenty of options to express positions without posting on TFL and not posting here isn't detrimental to your life. The free speech options exist across the country. Thus, the restriction of topics here do not meet the same standard of restriction as the restriction on potential usage of reasonable methods of self-defense.
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October 6, 2011, 02:42 PM | #44 |
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Hm...
You're welcome to use TFL but we will restrict your speech and that's ok because there are other places for you to speak. Ok, I agree. No problem. But, how is that different from: You are welcome to buy my pizza but I will restrict your right to be armed and it's ok because you have other sources of food. Same, same. |
October 6, 2011, 03:02 PM | #45 | |
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You cannot logically prove your point so now you are resorting to strawman arguments which really are nothing red herrings. Again you have drawn a comparison between two things which are not equal yet you feel as if you can draw the same conclusions from them. Your arguments are not logically sound. I could do the same using your flawed logic I could argue that I need info about guns and their role in self defense and that it is essential for me to live my life. I should not have to curtail my political, religious or moral views to get access to this vital information. Yes I could go somewhere else but this is where I want to get it. Its the only one I know. How can you justify oppressing me? Its kind of absurd isn't it. You clearly feel your right to self defense trumps all other rights. You feel you have the right to do as you choose. Why not simply state that instead of trying to produce flawed illogical arguments which simply do not hold up.
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October 6, 2011, 09:06 PM | #46 | |
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That's where I have some trouble seeing the equivalence. (I only use Peet as a facetious example. I don't think he'd actually ban guns or Lutherans)
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October 6, 2011, 11:51 PM | #47 |
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Its also odd that carrying firearms would be uniquely protected apart from, free speech for example. I can tell people they can't use nasty words on my property. I can tell them they can't wear certain clothes. I can tell them they can't do explicit physical contact. They can't play certain music. They can't be there at certain times. They can't record audio or video. The can't drink beer. I can restrict religious speech. I can tell the press to leave.
Religion can be censored on my property. Speech can be censored on my property. The press can be censored on my property. I can't forbid firearms? It's nonsensical. |
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