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Old February 5, 2018, 01:26 PM   #1
Erno86
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Two bullets

"These two bullets were found after the Battle of Gallipoli which started in 1915 and ended in 1916 during WWI."

http://www.historyinorbit.com/175-fa...rc=taboola&v=p


One looks as if it's been unfired.
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Old February 5, 2018, 02:53 PM   #2
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I'm curious to know which bullet was the Turkish or British one?
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Old February 5, 2018, 08:49 PM   #3
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I have seen that picture (or one like it) before; the consensus has been that while it would be possible for two bullets to meet in the air, the condition supposedly pictured wouldn't/couldn't happen for fairly obvious reasons.

Someone's idea of having a bit of fun, something in very short supply at the actual battle Gallipoli

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Old February 5, 2018, 09:54 PM   #4
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Very possible for that to happen. My guess is that the fired bullet hit ammunition stored in a soldier's bandolier. Not exactly sure which one is which, but the fired bullet seems to have the bass profile of a 303 British round.

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Old February 5, 2018, 10:41 PM   #5
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+1 for bullet with twist marks hit a static bullet.
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Old February 6, 2018, 08:28 AM   #6
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I just did a bit of scanning around on the web, and it seems that Turkish 8mm ammunition used a 154-gr. flat base bullet, but with a crimping cannelure near the base...

But, so did the period British bullet.

Without being able to measure them, I can't say for certain which is which.
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Old February 6, 2018, 05:19 PM   #7
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Maybe they could scan for traces of Cordite powder on the fired bullet, though I'm not sure whether Turks used Cordite in there ammo rounds like the Brits did.

I have a bunch of old Cordite 303 British ammo for my fake T Smelly & Jungle Carbine; and you talk about hangfires...with the resulting terrible accuracy.
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Old February 6, 2018, 09:27 PM   #8
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No bullet could penetrate another bullet like that without the "target" bullet having a very solid support, and if it did, it would be severely damaged and/or blown well away by the impact. To get that kind of effect takes some mechanical intervention, probably in the form of something like a drill press (and a sense of humor).

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Old February 6, 2018, 10:31 PM   #9
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I dunno about FMJ but there have been thousands of Civil War bullets found that collided in air. Sometimes three or more.
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Old February 6, 2018, 10:34 PM   #10
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Sideways?

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Old February 6, 2018, 11:02 PM   #11
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Every direction you can imagine.
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Old February 7, 2018, 08:17 AM   #12
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"Maybe they could scan for traces of Cordite powder on the fired bullet, though I'm not sure whether Turks used Cordite in there ammo rounds like the Brits did."

After 100 years it would be a fruitless effort.

Cordite is but one of many hundreds of forms of nitrocellulose. Turkish ammunition used a cut flake nitrocellulose.
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Old February 7, 2018, 08:22 AM   #13
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"No bullet could penetrate another bullet like that without the "target" bullet having a very solid support, and if it did, it would be severely damaged and/or blown well away by the impact. To get that kind of effect takes some mechanical intervention, probably in the form of something like a drill press (and a sense of humor)."


Well, there must have been tens of thousands of humorous dudes ignoring their wartime duties to crank out lots of joke bullets on battlefields around the world, because there are literally THOUSANDS of such collided bullets recovered from battlefields all over.

One only needs to google collided bullets.

Bullets aren't particularly tough, especially WW I era bullets that didn't have steel penetrators in the cores.

The drawn nose of the jacket is more than thick enough to prevent malformation when striking the thinner jacket along the body of the bullet. So, I have to disagree with your view that the bullet hitting another bullet would necessarily be obliterated or even severely damaged. There's MORE than enough proof from battlefields around the world to show that that's not the case.

Here are just a few that I found in a momentary review...






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Old February 7, 2018, 01:37 PM   #14
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I'd say measuring the most intact portions of the bullets would be the only way to tell with any degree of certainty. If one is 8mm and the other .303 Brit diameter, then there you go.

It's also possible that they are both the same size. Bullets tend to fly about and sometimes the one that hits you is from your own side.


Quote:
"No bullet could penetrate another bullet like that without the "target" bullet having a very solid support, and if it did, it would be severely damaged and/or blown well away by the impact.
While this is often true, its not always true. Bullets strike with varying speeds, and "spent" or "nearly spent" bullets have often struck targets just hard enough to stick in them, or dent them and bounce off...

One of the more well known examples of a spent bullet was Adm Kimmel being shot while watching the Japanese raid on his fleet at Pearl Harbor. A bullet shot him, breaking through the glass of the French doors of his HQ, and struck him in the abdomen, then fell to the floor. Every account I've read describes it as a Japanese 7,7mm bullet, and it likely was. But it COULD have been a US .30 bullet instead, and done the same thing.
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Old February 7, 2018, 02:34 PM   #15
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The length would provide the best clue as to the ID of each bullet.

The British bullet was 20 or so grains heavier, and was slightly longer.



"It's also possible that they are both the same size. Bullets tend to fly about and sometimes the one that hits you is from your own side."

Excellent point. I'd not considered that at all.
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Old February 8, 2018, 06:24 PM   #16
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I have read several accounts of the Kimmel story and none say that the admiral was actually shot or wounded. The bullet penetrated the heavy glass window and struck Kimmel's jacket before falling to the floor, but the jacket was not penetrated and the admiral was not killed or wounded. Several accounts give it as a 7.7mm, while one gives it as a .50 caliber; the 7.7 story seems plausible, since no US planes were in that area firing in that direction at the time. If the bullet survives, I had not heard of it.

As to WWI bullet collisions, I have often said, and will say again, that any bullet fired has to stop someplace and do so by hitting something. And with so many bullets being fired in a relatively small area, it would seem inevitable that some bullets would strike other bullets in the air.

But that a bullet in mid-flight is so stable that another bullet striking it from the side will penetrate it, without deflecting it or distorting it other than to put a neat hole through it, seems pretty unlikely.

As to WWI soldiers having time on their hands, that war seems to have seen long periods of inactivity, broken by a few hours of sheer terror. The many examples of "trench art" in form of worked over shell casings certainly show both that the soldiers had plenty of time and plenty of ingenuity in working over various examples of deadly devices into novelties.

That does not prove or disprove that a bullet could not have been struck in the air by another bullet*, but IMHO the examples seen here (and most others) are fakes, either done with a drill, or by firing at a pulled bullet (no rifling?) stuck to a board or tree.

Jim

*There is a merged "double bullet" from the U.S. Civil War; indications are that it is genuine, the two bullets having struck nose on and fused together.

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Old February 9, 2018, 02:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
I have read several accounts of the Kimmel story and none say that the admiral was actually shot or wounded. The bullet penetrated the heavy glass window and struck Kimmel's jacket before falling to the floor, but the jacket was not penetrated and the admiral was not killed or wounded. Several accounts give it as a 7.7mm, while one gives it as a .50 caliber; the 7.7 story seems plausible, since no US planes were in that area firing in that direction at the time. If the bullet survives, I had not heard of it.
I agree, and the incident is shown in the movie Tora Tora Tora. The Adm was not injured, but he was "shot". It being a Jap 7.7mm slug is very plausible, but it also could have been a US round, without the actual bullet (and "chain of evidence") intact, we will never be certain.

Many civilians were wounded (perhaps some killed) during the attack, by US rounds falling on Honolulu. Ascribed to the Japanese at the time, later research proved many, if not most of the rounds came from the ships in the harbor firing at the attacking planes, and missing. Every bullet (including 5" naval shells) lands somewhere...

I also agree that a lot of the bullet hits bullet things are faked, but some aren't. The example shown looks "authentic" to me, if one assumes the casing that held the unfired bullet was lost or removed at some point.

There is a story from the Civil War (without any real proof that I have ever seen) that a bullet struck a soldier in the testicles, then struck a nurse in the lower abdomen, the nurse survived, and discovered she was pregnant, as a result of being shot! probably just a BS story, I can't say. However there are cases where truth is stranger than the wildest fiction....
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Old February 9, 2018, 10:20 PM   #18
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That sounds a little dubious but then some of the documented stories from the CW are almost as strange.
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Old February 11, 2018, 01:44 AM   #19
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....and what are the chances of a bullet hitting a raindrop in a downpour? Maybe those bullets prove that we shouldn't be so sure of ourselves.....
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Old February 11, 2018, 09:56 AM   #20
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May I suggest that somebody shoot at pulled bullets on the range and check out the results --- The problem is...recovering the bullets, since our range members are not allowed to walk on the dirt backstop. Using steel core bullets against lead core bullets, might leave good results, along with using a magnet to help recover them.
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Old February 11, 2018, 02:04 PM   #21
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If you shoot another bullet with a high powered rifle you'll likely never find it. Ever shot a dime? The two bullets wont be stuck together unless the hit was made at the end of the fired bullets power and I don't know anybody that can shoot that good.
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