odd brass

nmaineron · October 21, 2013, 10:10 AM

I recently picked up a set of 30-06 dies.I have been saving brass for quite some time and have been given brass from friends that know that I have been saving.Most of the brass is Remington and Winchester with some Norma but I have a few that have stamps that I haven't a clue as to who made them.One brand, P M O, has what seems to be a sleeve for the primer pocket which is smaller in diameter than normal and also has a red type of dye around the primer.One brand,T W 4 3, I gave up on trying to size because I found that I had to almost stand on the handle to get it to go into my die (RCBS).

The others that I have are S L 4 3, R A 5 2.

I would appreciate thoughts on using this brass. Thanks,Ron

JefferS · October 21, 2013, 10:39 AM

I would say that the SL43 is St. Louis 1943.

If I remember correctly (an often I don't), that may be the time where mercury was used in the primers and could have been corrosive on the brass. I think I would stay away from it until corrected by someone with a lot more experience than I have.

The other I think is Remington Arms 1952 is probably safer than the SL.

Could the PMO actually be a PMP?

The Twin Cities Ordinance 1943 is probably in the same category as the SL, in that it may have had mercury.

Salmoneye · October 21, 2013, 10:40 AM

TW43 = Twin Cities 1943

RA52 = Remington Arms 1952

SL42 = St Louis Ordnance 1943

**Mike Irwin** · October 21, 2013, 10:45 AM

"If I remember correctly (an often I don't), that may be the time where mercury was used in the primers and could have been corrosive on the brass. I think I would stay away from it until corrected by someone with a lot more experience than I have."

Incorrect.

Mercury was fully removed from US military primers by about 1900.

Commercially it happened around the same time, IIRC.

US military primers continued to be loaded with corrosive primers through World War II and into the early to mid 1950s (with the exception of .30 M1 Carbine). No problem for the brass, though.

kerreckt · October 21, 2013, 10:51 AM

The brass you have that seems to have a "sleeve" in it is crimped primer military brass. Most of this type brass is good quality but you must swage the pocket in order to prime it. You need to lubricate the cases before resizing so you don't have such a difficult time resizing. Lubricating will also help you avoid getting a case stuck in your die. You can get info on the various headstamps at this website:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes#S
You also need to watch for Berdan primed brass. If you are having difficulty depriming don"t have a heavy hand and break the depriming pin. Most likely it is Berdan primed. Look inside the case and if there are two holes instead of one, it is Berdan primed. Good luck and best wishes.

**Unclenick** · October 21, 2013, 10:58 AM

And note that the crimp has to be removed before a new primer will fit in well. Various tools are available for the purpose with a simple wood countersink cutter being the least expensive.

The Swiss and Germans used mercury in non-corrosive primers for awhile in the first decades of the 20th century, and I thought I'd read it found its way into some early non-corrosive commercial primers in the U. S. in the 1930's, but didn't remain for long. The problem, toxicity aside, was it would get weak after a couple of years and be unreliable. Plus, at smokeless powder pressure levels the weakening of brass for reloading was quickly apparent. As Mike says, the U.S. military didn't use it into the 20th century. The aging problem alone would have nixed it for stockpiling.

Your hard-to-resize brass may have been fired in a machine gun or a very loose chamber. If you can get it back to size (may require a small base die), once it has been fired in your chamber, it shouldn't be difficult to size any more.

JefferS · October 21, 2013, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Incorrect.

Thanks, Mike. I didn't have time to go through my books, but I was curious.

**Mike Irwin** · October 21, 2013, 11:33 AM

"I thought I'd read it found its way into some early non-corrosive commercial primers in the U. S. in the 1930's."

It did.

Apparently it would disappear and reappear at various times. Mercuric priming compounds also seem to have hung on in rimfire rounds, also, which would not be reloaded, right through the 1930s when most of them were dropped from production.

Even the US military continued to load mercuric corrosive primed ammo in batch lots (primarily match ammo) up through the 1960s. Boxes will be found with a warning statement that the brass is not to be reloaded because of the mercuric primers.

Oddly enough, commercial manufacturers don't seem to have put the same emphasis on informing customers of mercuric v. non-mercuric primers on their boxes as they did with the removal of corrosive elements in the primers (Kleenbore, Staynless, etc.)

My theory on that is that probably there were a lot fewer reloaders today than there were back then and the brass was seen as a wastage product as opposed to the gun, which definitely was not.

**Mike Irwin** · October 21, 2013, 11:37 AM

Regarding berdan-primed brass, it's going to be extremely rare encounter a US-government-loaded cartridge with a Berdan primer.

The US governemnt pretty much universally adopted Boxer priming in the 1870s/1880s and never looked back.

There has been some commercial ammo loaded in the US using Berdan primers, but I would be very surprised to see any made post 1910.

P5 Guy · October 21, 2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Regarding berdan-primed brass, it's going to be extremely rare encounter a US-government-loaded cartridge with a Berdan primer.

The only .30'06 I know of that is berdan primed has AMA and a two digit date.
AMA 60 as an example was made in Denmark. Great ammo very accurate just can't be reloaded very easily.

F. Guffey · October 21, 2013, 12:36 PM

I have R-P 270 Winchester with a Berdan anvil on the case side.

F. Guffey

Mercury has an infinity, once the trigger is pulled the case is rendered scrap.

**Mike Irwin** · October 21, 2013, 12:56 PM

R-P is a commercial headstamp for Remington Peters, used starting after Remington acquired Peters in 1933.

It's somewhat odd, but likely not unprecedented, that Berdan primed case be made this late.

Any chance of getting a photograph of the unprimed case?

tangolima · October 21, 2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Your hard-to-resize brass may have been fired in a machine gun or a very loose chamber. If you can get it back to size (may require a small base die), once it has been fired in your chamber, it shouldn't be difficult to size any more.

I found it easier to resize such brass in steps. Pull handle till it meets stiff resistance. Back off and rotate the brass 180 degree, and pull the handle again. Each time I back off and rotate, the brass will go in deeper. I learned this from resizing for my Arisaka 38 that has oversized chamber and excessive headspace.

-TL

kerreckt · October 21, 2013, 03:15 PM

The AMA ammo is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote about Berdan primed 30-06. Until I came across some AMA 80 ammo I had never seen any Berdan primed 30-06. Recently, I found some Berdan primed 30-06 that bears an Arabic
headstamp. I have no idea where it came from. Perhaps someone on this forum has some info about it.

nmaineron · October 23, 2013, 07:09 AM

Thanks for the info,I don't think that I will use the odd brass as I have plenty of Remington,Winchester and Norma to keep me happy.I didn't see anything out of the ordinary as far as Berdan except for the sleeved primers and the difficulty in trying to run them through my die.Ron

Bart B. · October 23, 2013, 07:37 AM

It was in the early 1950's that corrosive, mercury base priming compounds were no longer used in USA military 30 caliber service ammo. But commercial and military match ammo sometimes used it as late as 1958. Western Cartridge Company's WCC58 white box .308 Win. match ammo with 200-gr. FMJBT bullets had corrosive primers

Here's a good list of such stuff for USA military ammo:

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf

**Mike Irwin** · October 23, 2013, 09:48 AM

"mercury base priming compounds were no longer used in USA military 30 caliber service ammo."

In service ammo, mercuric compounds haven't been used since the late 1890s or early 1900s.

Upon the move to smokeless powder in the late 1880s with the adoption of the Krag, the military discovered that mercury destroyed cartridge brass, which they collected and reloaded for training.

Frankford Arsenal instituted a crash program looking for compounds that could be substituted for the mercury and which would not destroy cartridge brass.

I THINK that by 1901/1902 all US military primers were mercury free but still corrosive.

The only exceptions that I know of regarding the mercuric primers are the match ammunition that I mentioned, made in various years through the late 1950s/early 1960s.

Those primers were corrosive, and did contain mercury, making the brass totally unsuitable for reloading.

F. Guffey · October 24, 2013, 02:03 PM

Bart B., "Western Cartridge Company's WCC58 white box .308 Win. match ammo with 200-gr. FMJBT bullets had corrosive primers"

They had corrosive primers, just not the ones you are thinking about, before eliminating mercury there was an attempt to tin the inside of the case to prevent the case from becoming brittle. The case was rendered scrap the instance the trigger was pulled.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

Jack O'Conner in one of his books published in 1951 made reference to corrosive primers, he concluded if the primer was corrosive it was mercury. Reloaders , in their logic, seem to think if it was bad it was not 'all that bad', others were walking around saying "Tell me again, how does that story go?"

F. Guffey

October 21, 2013, 10:10 AM	#1
nmaineron Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Posts: 8	odd brass I recently picked up a set of 30-06 dies.I have been saving brass for quite some time and have been given brass from friends that know that I have been saving.Most of the brass is Remington and Winchester with some Norma but I have a few that have stamps that I haven't a clue as to who made them.One brand, P M O, has what seems to be a sleeve for the primer pocket which is smaller in diameter than normal and also has a red type of dye around the primer.One brand,T W 4 3, I gave up on trying to size because I found that I had to almost stand on the handle to get it to go into my die (RCBS). The others that I have are S L 4 3, R A 5 2. I would appreciate thoughts on using this brass. Thanks,Ron

October 21, 2013, 10:39 AM	#2
JefferS Member Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Independence, MO Posts: 89	I would say that the SL43 is St. Louis 1943. If I remember correctly (an often I don't), that may be the time where mercury was used in the primers and could have been corrosive on the brass. I think I would stay away from it until corrected by someone with a lot more experience than I have. The other I think is Remington Arms 1952 is probably safer than the SL. Could the PMO actually be a PMP? The Twin Cities Ordinance 1943 is probably in the same category as the SL, in that it may have had mercury. __________________ *Jeff*

October 21, 2013, 10:45 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"If I remember correctly (an often I don't), that may be the time where mercury was used in the primers and could have been corrosive on the brass. I think I would stay away from it until corrected by someone with a lot more experience than I have." Incorrect. Mercury was fully removed from US military primers by about 1900. Commercially it happened around the same time, IIRC. US military primers continued to be loaded with corrosive primers through World War II and into the early to mid 1950s (with the exception of .30 M1 Carbine). No problem for the brass, though. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 21, 2013, 10:58 AM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	And note that the crimp has to be removed before a new primer will fit in well. Various tools are available for the purpose with a simple wood countersink cutter being the least expensive. The Swiss and Germans used mercury in non-corrosive primers for awhile in the first decades of the 20th century, and I thought I'd read it found its way into some early non-corrosive commercial primers in the U. S. in the 1930's, but didn't remain for long. The problem, toxicity aside, was it would get weak after a couple of years and be unreliable. Plus, at smokeless powder pressure levels the weakening of brass for reloading was quickly apparent. As Mike says, the U.S. military didn't use it into the 20th century. The aging problem alone would have nixed it for stockpiling. Your hard-to-resize brass may have been fired in a machine gun or a very loose chamber. If you can get it back to size (may require a small base die), once it has been fired in your chamber, it shouldn't be difficult to size any more. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 21, 2013, 11:33 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"I thought I'd read it found its way into some early non-corrosive commercial primers in the U. S. in the 1930's." It did. Apparently it would disappear and reappear at various times. Mercuric priming compounds also seem to have hung on in rimfire rounds, also, which would not be reloaded, right through the 1930s when most of them were dropped from production. Even the US military continued to load mercuric corrosive primed ammo in batch lots (primarily match ammo) up through the 1960s. Boxes will be found with a warning statement that the brass is not to be reloaded because of the mercuric primers. Oddly enough, commercial manufacturers don't seem to have put the same emphasis on informing customers of mercuric v. non-mercuric primers on their boxes as they did with the removal of corrosive elements in the primers (Kleenbore, Staynless, etc.) My theory on that is that probably there were a lot fewer reloaders today than there were back then and the brass was seen as a wastage product as opposed to the gun, which definitely was not. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 21, 2013, 10:40 AM	#3
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	TW43 = Twin Cities 1943 RA52 = Remington Arms 1952 SL42 = St Louis Ordnance 1943

October 21, 2013, 10:51 AM	#5
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	The brass you have that seems to have a "sleeve" in it is crimped primer military brass. Most of this type brass is good quality but you must swage the pocket in order to prime it. You need to lubricate the cases before resizing so you don't have such a difficult time resizing. Lubricating will also help you avoid getting a case stuck in your die. You can get info on the various headstamps at this website: http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes#S You also need to watch for Berdan primed brass. If you are having difficulty depriming don"t have a heavy hand and break the depriming pin. Most likely it is Berdan primed. Look inside the case and if there are two holes instead of one, it is Berdan primed. Good luck and best wishes.

October 21, 2013, 11:37 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Regarding berdan-primed brass, it's going to be extremely rare encounter a US-government-loaded cartridge with a Berdan primer. The US governemnt pretty much universally adopted Boxer priming in the 1870s/1880s and never looked back. There has been some commercial ammo loaded in the US using Berdan primers, but I would be very surprised to see any made post 1910. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 21, 2013, 12:36 PM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I have R-P 270 Winchester with a Berdan anvil on the case side. F. Guffey Mercury has an infinity, once the trigger is pulled the case is rendered scrap.

October 21, 2013, 12:56 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	R-P is a commercial headstamp for Remington Peters, used starting after Remington acquired Peters in 1933. It's somewhat odd, but likely not unprecedented, that Berdan primed case be made this late. Any chance of getting a photograph of the unprimed case? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 21, 2013, 03:15 PM	#14
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	Arabic 30-06 The AMA ammo is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote about Berdan primed 30-06. Until I came across some AMA 80 ammo I had never seen any Berdan primed 30-06. Recently, I found some Berdan primed 30-06 that bears an Arabic headstamp. I have no idea where it came from. Perhaps someone on this forum has some info about it. Last edited by kerreckt; October 21, 2013 at 03:27 PM. Reason: title

October 23, 2013, 07:09 AM	#15
nmaineron Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Posts: 8	Thanks for the info,I don't think that I will use the odd brass as I have plenty of Remington,Winchester and Norma to keep me happy.I didn't see anything out of the ordinary as far as Berdan except for the sleeved primers and the difficulty in trying to run them through my die.Ron

October 23, 2013, 07:37 AM	#16
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	It was in the early 1950's that corrosive, mercury base priming compounds were no longer used in USA military 30 caliber service ammo. But commercial and military match ammo sometimes used it as late as 1958. Western Cartridge Company's WCC58 white box .308 Win. match ammo with 200-gr. FMJBT bullets had corrosive primers Here's a good list of such stuff for USA military ammo: http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf

October 23, 2013, 09:48 AM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"mercury base priming compounds were no longer used in USA military 30 caliber service ammo." In service ammo, mercuric compounds haven't been used since the late 1890s or early 1900s. Upon the move to smokeless powder in the late 1880s with the adoption of the Krag, the military discovered that mercury destroyed cartridge brass, which they collected and reloaded for training. Frankford Arsenal instituted a crash program looking for compounds that could be substituted for the mercury and which would not destroy cartridge brass. I THINK that by 1901/1902 all US military primers were mercury free but still corrosive. The only exceptions that I know of regarding the mercuric primers are the match ammunition that I mentioned, made in various years through the late 1950s/early 1960s. Those primers were corrosive, and did contain mercury, making the brass totally unsuitable for reloading. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 24, 2013, 02:03 PM	#18
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Bart B., "Western Cartridge Company's WCC58 white box .308 Win. match ammo with 200-gr. FMJBT bullets had corrosive primers" They had corrosive primers, just not the ones you are thinking about, before eliminating mercury there was an attempt to tin the inside of the case to prevent the case from becoming brittle. The case was rendered scrap the instance the trigger was pulled. F. Guffey

October 24, 2013, 02:14 PM	#19
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Jack O'Conner in one of his books published in 1951 made reference to corrosive primers, he concluded if the primer was corrosive it was mercury. Reloaders , in their logic, seem to think if it was bad it was not 'all that bad', others were walking around saying "Tell me again, how does that story go?" F. Guffey