1860 army cylinder in .44 colt? where do i find one?

jason41987 · November 24, 2012, 09:25 PM

where would i find an 1860 army cylinder in .44 colt?.. ive looked everywhere online and i cant find one which is odd, because its about the most historically accurate cartridge you could fire through one of these.. unlike 45 colt you can hold all six...

also, lets just say i was going to cast .451 bullets for this... are there any molds available for the heeled base, or can i just shape that somehow after the bullet is formed?

Mesquito Whitey · November 24, 2012, 10:19 PM

I would suggest you try Dixie Gun Works. (.com) You can more than likely find anything you need for black powder shooting. I think that even Cabelas may have cylinders. Not sure though.

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 12:10 AM

i checked dixie, cant seem to find anything... i find them for the 1858, but not the 1860

g.willikers · November 25, 2012, 10:37 AM

Here's a good description of this old cartridge:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/44_Colt_original.htm

Tidewater_Kid · November 25, 2012, 11:36 AM

Because of the way .44 barrels are measured on the 1860 you will need .45 bullets. I don't think anybody makes a converter in .44. You might be able to send it off to Kenny Howell and have a custom converter made, but that would be very expensive. As it is, the converters cost as much as the gun.

Kirst and R&D make 5-shot .45LC converters for the 1860.

TK

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 12:52 PM

im well familiar with what the cartridge is and how to reload it, and its a better choice for an 1860 conversion than 5-round 45 colt.. which is fine for someone wanting to do CAS, but id rather stay with historical accuracy instead

also, i see 44 colt cylinders for the 1858 quite often... kind of strange though youd see the cylinder for a pistol that never fired it, but not for the one that fired it almost exclusively

savit260 · November 25, 2012, 12:59 PM

Give Gary a call. Super nice guy, and I'm willing to bet he can help you out. He does nice work and his prices are plenty reasonable.

http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 01:16 PM

lets say i had access to a machine shop, which i do... not having both cylinders in hand... would it be possible to convert a black powder cylinder, to machine off the end where the caps go, and bore it through?

**Aguila Blanca** · November 25, 2012, 03:31 PM

Buy a .36 caliber cylinder from VTI Gun Parts and have it bored out for the .44 Colt cartridge.

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 05:08 PM

im not so sure that would work... see.. the 44 caliber cylinder is larger diameter in the front than it is in the rear... so the front section was enlarged to fit the larger bullets in the 44 caliber colts... i dont think a 36 caliber cylinder would have enough meat on it, otherwise they would have used that cylinder on the 1860 army

bedbugbilly · November 25, 2012, 07:01 PM

Jason - first of all, what make revolver are you looking for? Uberti? Pietta? ASM? I see a variety of them often on eBay - Cabellas used to sell "spare" cylinders for some of their stock C & Bs . . . check with places like Lodgewood or other Civil War related that do gun work. Go to the NSSA site and look at their list of sutlers - Lodgewood will be there as well as some others . . .

Go the the blackpowder forum on this site and post a WTB and see if one surfaces . . . .

Go over to CAS and post a WTB . . . .

But first of all . . you'll have to know and state the maker . . . one brand is not necessarily interchangeable with another . . . .

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 07:11 PM

dont uberti and pietta user larger frames for their conversion models to fit six rounds of .45 colt into them? or do they still use the same frames as on their cap and ball models?

if frames are the same size, cimarron uses mostly uberti parts, so a cimarron .44 colt cylinder would work

bedbugbilly · November 25, 2012, 07:15 PM

Jason - I reread your original post . . . I'm talking about additional cylinders in percussion . . . not for a .44 Colt . . .

As far as conversion cylinders . . . I think you're pretty much limited to what has already been mention - Kirst, etc. and in the configurations that they offer . . .

If you found a spare percussion cylinder . . . I suppose you would only be limited by your creativity and machining abilities (which you already have) . . . and to make sure that whatever cylinder you used met the specs for the pressures of the cartridge you'd be using (along with the barrel - steel specs and actual bore measurement). The bore measurement is probably the most limiting factor.

I have a feeling that by the time you find a cylinder that you could utilize and all of your time, dollar wise, a person would just be better off in going with a conversion cylinder or one of the '60s that are already converted in one of the cartridges that they are available in?

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 07:18 PM

its not so much about the cost, but the project itself, and the already made conversions have barrels on them to take a .429 bullet if im not mistaken, not the larger .451 which would require a heeled bullet, so theres a historical aspect lost in the off the shelf pre-made conversions

bedbugbilly · November 25, 2012, 07:21 PM

I thought they used the same frame but I could be wrong on that.

You might try posting on the BP section of this forum as there are a number of 'em that use conversions I'm sure.

Also, you might try the CAS site.

Whether you're in to CAS or not, there are a few on each site that could probably answer your questions and who have more experience with the conversions of the various models.

Good luck . . .

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 07:33 PM

i contacted uberti and cimarron about whether or not the frames are the same size.. if so, the cimarron cylinder would probably work fine.. i probably wont get a response for a few days though

Hawg · November 25, 2012, 07:49 PM

I would contact Kirst and Howell they're the only ones making conversion cylinders to my knowledge.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 25, 2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen

I would contact Kirst and Howell they're the only ones making conversion cylinders to my knowledge.

I believe this is correct. And Kirst has a marketing arrangement with VTI Gun Parts, so there's another point of contact.

Uberti ( http://www.uberti.com/firearms/army-...d-open-top.php ) lists the 1860 Army conversion in both .38 Special (which would have begun life as a .36 caliber can-n-ball) and .45 Colt (which began as a .44 caliber cap-n-ball). I seriously doubt they use two different frame sizes for the same model, so it might be worth a call to VTI (the U.S. distributor for Uberti parts) to ask if the .38 Special cylinder has the enlarged front section.

jason41987 · November 25, 2012, 11:13 PM

ive never seen a 45 colt conversion on an 1860 that had more than 5 rounds because there typically just isnt enough space for it, which is one of the reasons colt used a heeled bullet on a smaller case, so they could fit six... if the cylinder sizes are the same and theyve stuffed six 45 colt chambers into it, id suspect the chambers to be very thin walled

cimarron makes 1860 revolvers in 44 colt, and they sell spare parts for them, cylinders included... i would need to add the recoil plate / firing pin / loading gate piece to it though, which the conversion cylinder manufacturers offer, and they look to be compatible

Bob Wright · November 26, 2012, 11:20 AM

Funny your mention of this, the .44 Colt taking .451" bullets. I shot an original Colt 1860 Army some years ago. The cylinder was chambered for .45 ACP. The cartridges were loaded with cast bullets and Pyrodex powder. The owner had no information on the conversion as he had inherited the gun.

Bob Wright

GNLaFrance · November 26, 2012, 03:12 PM

Jason, I have a set of plans to convert an 1851 Navy cap and ball revolver to fire cartridges. They can be used as a basis to convert other C&B revolvers. If you're interested, I'll scan them and email them to you. PM sent.

savit260 · November 26, 2012, 06:21 PM

I'll metnion this again, as apparently you missed it the first time.

Call or email Gary at http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/

This is a man that specializes in cartridge conversions. He's the factory authorized installer for Kirst.

There are things that can be done outsied of what you see on Kirst or Howells websites.

He also is quite knowlegeable on all things conversions, incuding heeled bullets.

This is your "go to" guy, and he works at VERY reasonable rates.

If I wanted a 1860 in 44 Colt... he's the first guy I'd call.

November 24, 2012, 09:25 PM	#1
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	1860 army cylinder in .44 colt? where do i find one? where would i find an 1860 army cylinder in .44 colt?.. ive looked everywhere online and i cant find one which is odd, because its about the most historically accurate cartridge you could fire through one of these.. unlike 45 colt you can hold all six... also, lets just say i was going to cast .451 bullets for this... are there any molds available for the heeled base, or can i just shape that somehow after the bullet is formed?

November 25, 2012, 10:37 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Here's a good description of this old cartridge: http://www.chuckhawks.com/44_Colt_original.htm __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 25, 2012, 07:01 PM	#11
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Jason - first of all, what make revolver are you looking for? Uberti? Pietta? ASM? I see a variety of them often on eBay - Cabellas used to sell "spare" cylinders for some of their stock C & Bs . . . check with places like Lodgewood or other Civil War related that do gun work. Go to the NSSA site and look at their list of sutlers - Lodgewood will be there as well as some others . . . Go the the blackpowder forum on this site and post a WTB and see if one surfaces . . . . Go over to CAS and post a WTB . . . . But first of all . . you'll have to know and state the maker . . . one brand is not necessarily interchangeable with another . . . . __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

November 25, 2012, 07:11 PM	#12
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	dont uberti and pietta user larger frames for their conversion models to fit six rounds of .45 colt into them? or do they still use the same frames as on their cap and ball models? if frames are the same size, cimarron uses mostly uberti parts, so a cimarron .44 colt cylinder would work Last edited by jason41987; November 25, 2012 at 07:17 PM.

November 25, 2012, 07:15 PM	#13
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Jason - I reread your original post . . . I'm talking about additional cylinders in percussion . . . not for a .44 Colt . . . As far as conversion cylinders . . . I think you're pretty much limited to what has already been mention - Kirst, etc. and in the configurations that they offer . . . If you found a spare percussion cylinder . . . I suppose you would only be limited by your creativity and machining abilities (which you already have) . . . and to make sure that whatever cylinder you used met the specs for the pressures of the cartridge you'd be using (along with the barrel - steel specs and actual bore measurement). The bore measurement is probably the most limiting factor. I have a feeling that by the time you find a cylinder that you could utilize and all of your time, dollar wise, a person would just be better off in going with a conversion cylinder or one of the '60s that are already converted in one of the cartridges that they are available in? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

November 24, 2012, 10:19 PM	#2
Mesquito Whitey Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Nevada Desert Posts: 84	I would suggest you try Dixie Gun Works. (.com) You can more than likely find anything you need for black powder shooting. I think that even Cabelas may have cylinders. Not sure though.

November 25, 2012, 12:10 AM	#3
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	i checked dixie, cant seem to find anything... i find them for the 1858, but not the 1860

November 25, 2012, 11:36 AM	#5
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	Because of the way .44 barrels are measured on the 1860 you will need .45 bullets. I don't think anybody makes a converter in .44. You might be able to send it off to Kenny Howell and have a custom converter made, but that would be very expensive. As it is, the converters cost as much as the gun. Kirst and R&D make 5-shot .45LC converters for the 1860. TK

November 25, 2012, 12:52 PM	#6
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	im well familiar with what the cartridge is and how to reload it, and its a better choice for an 1860 conversion than 5-round 45 colt.. which is fine for someone wanting to do CAS, but id rather stay with historical accuracy instead also, i see 44 colt cylinders for the 1858 quite often... kind of strange though youd see the cylinder for a pistol that never fired it, but not for the one that fired it almost exclusively

November 25, 2012, 12:59 PM	#7
savit260 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2006 Posts: 702	Give Gary a call. Super nice guy, and I'm willing to bet he can help you out. He does nice work and his prices are plenty reasonable. http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/

November 25, 2012, 01:16 PM	#8
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	lets say i had access to a machine shop, which i do... not having both cylinders in hand... would it be possible to convert a black powder cylinder, to machine off the end where the caps go, and bore it through?

November 25, 2012, 03:31 PM	#9
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,458	Buy a .36 caliber cylinder from VTI Gun Parts and have it bored out for the .44 Colt cartridge.

November 25, 2012, 05:08 PM	#10
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	im not so sure that would work... see.. the 44 caliber cylinder is larger diameter in the front than it is in the rear... so the front section was enlarged to fit the larger bullets in the 44 caliber colts... i dont think a 36 caliber cylinder would have enough meat on it, otherwise they would have used that cylinder on the 1860 army

November 25, 2012, 07:18 PM	#14
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	its not so much about the cost, but the project itself, and the already made conversions have barrels on them to take a .429 bullet if im not mistaken, not the larger .451 which would require a heeled bullet, so theres a historical aspect lost in the off the shelf pre-made conversions

November 25, 2012, 07:21 PM	#15
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I thought they used the same frame but I could be wrong on that. You might try posting on the BP section of this forum as there are a number of 'em that use conversions I'm sure. Also, you might try the CAS site. Whether you're in to CAS or not, there are a few on each site that could probably answer your questions and who have more experience with the conversions of the various models. Good luck . . . __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

November 25, 2012, 07:33 PM	#16
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	i contacted uberti and cimarron about whether or not the frames are the same size.. if so, the cimarron cylinder would probably work fine.. i probably wont get a response for a few days though

November 25, 2012, 07:49 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I would contact Kirst and Howell they're the only ones making conversion cylinders to my knowledge.

November 25, 2012, 11:13 PM	#19
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	ive never seen a 45 colt conversion on an 1860 that had more than 5 rounds because there typically just isnt enough space for it, which is one of the reasons colt used a heeled bullet on a smaller case, so they could fit six... if the cylinder sizes are the same and theyve stuffed six 45 colt chambers into it, id suspect the chambers to be very thin walled cimarron makes 1860 revolvers in 44 colt, and they sell spare parts for them, cylinders included... i would need to add the recoil plate / firing pin / loading gate piece to it though, which the conversion cylinder manufacturers offer, and they look to be compatible

November 26, 2012, 11:20 AM	#20
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,987	Funny your mention of this, the .44 Colt taking .451" bullets. I shot an original Colt 1860 Army some years ago. The cylinder was chambered for .45 ACP. The cartridges were loaded with cast bullets and Pyrodex powder. The owner had no information on the conversion as he had inherited the gun. Bob Wright

November 26, 2012, 03:12 PM	#21
GNLaFrance Member Join Date: June 29, 2008 Location: Near Baltimore, the Soviet Socialist Democratic People's Republic of Maryland Posts: 81	1860 Army conversion in .44 Colt Jason, I have a set of plans to convert an 1851 Navy cap and ball revolver to fire cartridges. They can be used as a basis to convert other C&B revolvers. If you're interested, I'll scan them and email them to you. PM sent. __________________ Guy N. LaFrance Collector of Curios & Relics, Maryland Designated Collector Maryland Shall Issue, GOA, NRA, SAF, JPFO Grand Army of the Frontier, National Congress of Old West Shootists

November 26, 2012, 06:21 PM	#22
savit260 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2006 Posts: 702	I'll metnion this again, as apparently you missed it the first time. Call or email Gary at http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/ This is a man that specializes in cartridge conversions. He's the factory authorized installer for Kirst. There are things that can be done outsied of what you see on Kirst or Howells websites. He also is quite knowlegeable on all things conversions, incuding heeled bullets. This is your "go to" guy, and he works at VERY reasonable rates. If I wanted a 1860 in 44 Colt... he's the first guy I'd call.

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