February 5, 2010, 12:48 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 47
|
Mumbai
I've recently completed a research project on the Mumbai Attack of November 2008 for a client. I thought that I'd post an unclassified version here for those interested. The file is about 1.5 MB so it will take a second to load. You can download it here - Mumbai Attack Reconstruction.
It's actually two files, a presentation with maps followed by a timeline and order of battle. You'll need adobe reader to view the files. DOL
__________________
Scott Watson - Founder Jedburgh Corp www.Jedburgh-USA.com The only failure in training is the failure to train. Last edited by Jedburgh; February 5, 2010 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Fix the link |
February 5, 2010, 07:13 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 15, 2007
Posts: 1,855
|
Very interesting, thanks for posting. From a professional point of view, could the Indian security forces have anything better?
__________________
from the poster formerly known as Son of Vlad Tepes |
February 5, 2010, 08:33 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Interesting, yes, thank you for posting it.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
February 6, 2010, 08:42 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 47
|
Thanks guys. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Let me know what you think of it. I'm looking for critical feedback. DOL
__________________
Scott Watson - Founder Jedburgh Corp www.Jedburgh-USA.com The only failure in training is the failure to train. |
February 6, 2010, 09:23 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,592
|
Very interesting.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen. |
February 6, 2010, 11:32 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 127
|
I will read this with interest. Thank you.
|
February 6, 2010, 11:42 AM | #7 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
|
So, what are the chances of something similar happening in America?
|
February 6, 2010, 12:17 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Posts: 315
|
Smince, the chances of it happening in America are quite high in my view. The biggest difference is that terrorists might start their operation where 1 person with a concealed weapon could change the entire dynamic from the outset by simply engaging them.
What would truly be terrifying is if terrorists decided to use the Russian situation where they took over a school.
__________________
In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to it.-Bear Bryant. |
February 6, 2010, 12:28 PM | #9 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
On page 1 of Movement to Mumbai, you note that Romeo departs via taxi for CST Railway Station. Before this time, you have not said who or what Romeo is. Later I read that Romeo is on of the terrorist teams. Maybe you should include something earlier on denoting people and team names so that the reader will better understand. From this initial mention of the name, I thought Romeo was the name of an individual, not a team. On page 2 of Movement to Mumbai, just how do you know things like the rubber life raft was inflated after the crew and captain have been killed? Some for Tango 1 and 2 as with Romeo. In Romeo Gets Sideways, you refer to "Romeo" and "Team Romeo" Are they one in the same? Who or what is Team Oscar? What are NSG Commandos? What is Navy MARCOS? Who is November? Is November the same as Team November? In The Fight for Taj Mahal Hotel, you note that NSG engage "Tango." Do you mean that they engaged "a" Tango or is "Tango" a specific designation. How is "Tango" different from "Tango 1" and "Tango 2" mentioned previously? In your Mumbai Attack Timeline and Order of Battle, you finally designate names, but this is after they have already been used in a confusing manner. Previously you had designated nautical miles to be "nm" but revert here to the long spelling. You also changed the format for writing time (e.g. 4pm instead of the 4.00pm used earlier) You seem to keep switching back and forth in your name designations, such as November and Team November. It may be meaningless, but since this is a technical report, I would assume that such designations would imply different meanings, only you never say one way or the other. If such inconsistencies have no meaning difference, then it makes your report look sloppy even if it is factually correct. 2nd page of the timeline, cafe is in lower case and should be a cap as it is a proper name. Your whole timeline issue seems to be a duplicate of information presented early on, but with new information added that was not seen early on. Some names are clarified in the timeline that were not clear at the beginning. In short, this presentation is a bit of an organizational nightmare. If I were you, I would delete the Movement to Mumbai section and following sections until the timeline and start the timeline right after the Terrorist Equipment page. I suggest this because the timeline has information not in the Movement section that clarifies many of your vague references in the Momvement and following sections. Incorporate the maps into the relevant locations of the timeline. Sorry if these comments sound picky, but Jedburgh Corp is supposed to be a professional company. This report has a lot of inconsistencies and is organizationally-challenged, which causes confusion. Is that how you want Jedburgh to be perceived?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange Last edited by Double Naught Spy; February 6, 2010 at 01:07 PM. |
||
February 6, 2010, 01:23 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,592
|
What steps would you recommend to take to prevent from being a casualty in a situation like this?
Barricade yourself into a room? Use lower profile hotels? (Although that may lead you to a situation in which you open yourself up to armed robbery instead of a terrorist attack.) Stick to taxis, when possible, and avoid mass transit? With all our political correctness and being afraid someone is going to cry foul (See C.A.I.R. and their crap, known supporters of terrorist and such), we have left ourselves wide open for this type of attack. There is a distinct profile of most of these guys and we are afraid to use it because we will be called a racist. Will profiling catch them all? NO! But it will definitely aid in the detection of some. By banning handguns within XXXX feet of a school, we have made our most vulnerable even more vulnerable. If an attack like this happened and the guns were obtained here in the U.S., there would be a call to ban more guns instead of an outcry that we have made a target friendly for the bad-guys. Police can not be everywhere at once and in order to guard all high priority targets is very unreasonable.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen. |
February 6, 2010, 04:14 PM | #11 |
Member
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 47
|
Double Naught - Thanks for the great feedback! The OB and Timeline should be first (before the maps, etc). When it was assembled, the order of the combined file was reversed. I've fixed it now.
Thanks again. DOL
__________________
Scott Watson - Founder Jedburgh Corp www.Jedburgh-USA.com The only failure in training is the failure to train. |
February 6, 2010, 06:35 PM | #12 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
|
Quote:
|
|
February 6, 2010, 07:35 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2009
Location: Pakistan
Posts: 646
|
Darra made (Darra=Tribal Area in Pakistan) made Tokarevs are something that people in the lowest income group buy. It comes as a shock to know that the Tokarevs used were Darra made and not Chinese or Russian.
However, Darra made Tokarevs are known to be smuggled to India from Pakistan and fetch probably 50 times more than what they're sold for in their country of origin so there is a good chance the Toks were acquired from the terrorists Indian counterparts as why would they use low quality Toks (with a 95% probability of malfunction) when Chinese Toks are readily available in Pakistan i.e. if/when they came in from Pakistan. The terrorist wearing orange tshirt & cap seems to be holding a Russian 1974 manufactured AK-47. Notice the muzzle. I could be wrong. These kind of attacks also happened in Pakistan but the terrorists were usually neutralized within minutes or sometimes in a few hours with minimum casualties. Mumbhai police's kind of ill trained & ill equipped. They still carry ancient .303 Lee Enfields and some 7.6X SLRs. Well one reason why I carry. These days you never know what you might run into. As for India they have very strict gun laws where the largest handgun calibre a civilian can own is probably .32 ACP. Import of firearms is also restricted since time immemorial so the .32 ACP there is surely from Genghis Khan era . |
February 6, 2010, 07:40 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2009
Location: Pakistan
Posts: 646
|
Btw do you have any information on the type of ammo that was used?
Would help you a lot in connecting the dots. Also Type 56 AK-47s are mostly legally imported, atleast in Pakistan. So if the AKs came in from Pakistan the best thing would be to check with Norinco or Polytech. Atleast they'll know who the importer was. |
February 6, 2010, 09:03 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2006
Posts: 101
|
This incident has been formally mentioned more than once here at my Border Patrol Station in South Florida. Not to suggest, we know anything is imminent, but merely to suggest we (all Floridians both LEO and civilians) need to be prepared and vigilant for just such an attack.
The Bahamas, which is a stone's throw from FL by boat, admits people from 166 different countries around the world into their island nation with no visa. Many of these are terrorist "source" countries. Do the math! |
February 6, 2010, 09:37 PM | #16 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
|
Quote:
Quote:
Even a response by armed civilians would not be particularly effective against armored gunmen, but it would likely be better than the immediate police response. Quote:
00- I don't think you are being nit-picky at all with the report, those are valid concerns.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
|||
February 7, 2010, 04:21 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,663
|
My state agency had a similar theme in one of it's large yearly training scenarios in 2006 or so. Post Columbine the trianing has shifted to the responders teaming up to go after the shooters.
|
February 7, 2010, 12:52 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
|
Maybe so but there has been no culture shift. Nearly all of the recent shootings it has been a recurrent theme.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
February 8, 2010, 12:42 PM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2006
Posts: 101
|
Quote:
In a Dynamic flowing situation such as Mumbai, we would most certainly engage. Examples: the North Hollywood Shootout, FBI Miami Shootout, The Ft. Hood Terrorist Attack......... I could go on and on. Civilians could do better (paraphrased). Though in my opinion, I certainly would want, or would not discourage their help, to this I have to say, NOT HARDLY, again respectfully. I'm really not sure where you're getting your info about US LEO's but your statements fly in the face of any training I've ever recieved and the Oath of Office I swore to uphold, not to mention all those brave men and women in blue who have fallen not waiting on the gunman to run out of ammo or take his own life. But maybe nextime we should let an "angry mob" handle the next major shootout. I'm sure they'd be much more inclined, better armed, and braver in the face of danger not to mention have far better coms, tactics, and coordination. |
|
February 8, 2010, 08:50 PM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
|
Quote:
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
|
February 8, 2010, 09:11 PM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: December 24, 2008
Location: Rochester Hills, Michigan
Posts: 67
|
I was just in Mumbai a few weeks ago...the nice hotels have higher security now checking all vehicles and people coming in. Still an attack could happen again easily...even with the additions.
|
February 11, 2010, 03:43 PM | #22 |
Member
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 47
|
I updated my site with a discussion on the implications of a Mumbai-style attack as it relates to active shooter protocol. You can read it here.
DOL
__________________
Scott Watson - Founder Jedburgh Corp www.Jedburgh-USA.com The only failure in training is the failure to train. |
February 11, 2010, 04:45 PM | #23 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
|
Quote:
But my expectations are high. I would expect that patrol cars should have a carbine or rifle accessible capable of defeating level III armor at a minimum. I would expect that the officer be well trained and proficient in it's use. Proper training, proper tools, emphasis on the first one. I don't know if my expectations are realistic, but they are there.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
|
February 11, 2010, 04:55 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2009
Location: Pakistan
Posts: 646
|
NEWS: The terrorist's lawyer was assasinated today.
|
February 11, 2010, 06:12 PM | #25 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
As far as the civilian response, oh sure, all those folks who talk about how they don't carry more than 5 or 8 rounds because there isn't any need will probably show up with their 5 or 8 rounds. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=397789
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||
|
|