tactical training

[threegun]

So you might categorize drawing a gun from concealment and getting good hits quickly; moving and shooting; use of cover and concealment; reloading quickly; clearing malfunctions; assessing situations and making difficult shoot/no shoot decisions quickly under stress (which decisions are cued by factors different from those involved in hunting); and dealing with the legal aftermath of a violent encounter as tactics.

Many a man has successfully defended himself without the advanced tactics taught today. These guys just used the skill at arms honed on the hunting range.

I won't argue that the additional tactics make one better. Clearly they do. However the fact that gunfights have been won by men with only hunting skills should stand to prove that the basic skills are in fact the same.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by threegun

Many a man has successfully defended himself without the advanced tactics taught today. ...the fact that gunfights have been won by men with only hunting skills should stand to prove that the basic skills are in fact the same.

Nope. All it proves is that those particular people were able to solve their particular problems with the skills they had at the time. It doesn't consider how things might have turned out if the problems were a little different. It doesn't take into account all the people who lost because their skills at the time were not up to their problems.

See post 39 (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by fiddletown

...The thing is that if we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.

If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. If all you know how to do is stand there and shoot, that will probably be what you'll do. It might be good enough, or it might not be.

The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be. ]

[Hiker 1]

Accurate: Many a man has successfully defended himself without the advanced tactics taught today.

Inaccurate: These guys just used the skill at arms honed on the hunting range.

Football and golf.

[pax]

Just an observation: I'm always astounded at the number of people who vigorously defend their ignorance online. If you find yourself doing so, it's probably time to ask yourself why you are afraid of learning.

pax

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How would one know whether a hunter or nonhunter could defend himself adequately without a study of such?

Most incidents don't require much skill. They are deterrent or a simple close range usage.

Hunting with a scoped rifle would have little to do with shooting a handgun at a guy who came through the window.

Maybe if the guy jumped into the air like a clay pigeon, skeet would help.

It is in the intensive incident that training really counts.

[threegun]

The bottom line is that both require one to shoot and hit their target.

Pax, I'm not afraid of learning LOL.

I whole heartedly believe that a man or woman who use a handgun to hunt regularly and are successful at it, have the skill with the handgun used for hunting to defend themselves adequately.

The #1 skill in gunfighting is the ability to hit you opponent IMO.

So IMO any sport or other that sharpens ones ability to put lead on target would indeed help in a gunfight. Especially if the sport has an adrenaline release involved like hunting and competition.

[threegun]

How would one know whether a hunter or nonhunter could defend himself adequately without a study of such?

Most incidents don't require much skill. They are deterrent or a simple close range usage.

Hunting with a scoped rifle would have little to do with shooting a handgun at a guy who came through the window.

Maybe if the guy jumped into the air like a clay pigeon, skeet would help.

It is in the intensive incident that training really counts

Come on Glenn LOL. Handgun hunter vs handgun SD user. Rifle hunter vs rifle SD user. I should have clarified sorry.

I do believe that a study exists that basically states that folks who use a firearm regularly for utilitarian purposes like hunting or pest control are more likely to fair better in a violent use of said firearm than a person who has limited use. I saw it somewhere a couple decades ago but can't find it with da Google search.

[Hiker 1]

The #1 skill in gunfighting is the ability to hit you opponent IMO.

That certainly seems logical, though it's debatable as well. Not getting hit is probably more important. If you exchange shots with an opponent and neither of you hit the other, which happens all the time, but he runs away, you have still won (provided that your rounds don't end up sailing through someone's bedroom).

Alternatively, if you double-tap him center mass but eat a .45 JHP in the process, your accuracy will not have mattered much.

[threegun]

Skill vs goal.

#1 goal is to survive. #1 skill is to put lead into bad guy.

[Hiker 1]

I think we're splitting hairs now

[threegun]

Maybe splitting hairs but its how I break it down. My goal is to survive. To do so may require certain skills with my firearm. Thats why the number one skill is putting lead into a target.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by threegun

...My goal is to survive. To do so may require certain skills with my firearm. Thats why the number one skill is putting lead into a target....

Yes, hitting your target is fundamental. But whether or not it will be enough will depend on the situation. It may be enough, and you will survive. But if it is your only skill, it may not be enough; and you might not survive.

[threegun]

But whether or not it will be enough will depend on the situation. It may be enough, and you will survive. But if it is your only skill, it may not be enough; and you might not survive.

Agreed.

My reasons for placing hitting the target #1 are more than one. Obviously hitting the threat is the only way to stop a determined attacker. It also has been proved that putting hits on your opponent degrades their ability to hit you, as well as make proper decisions. All the other tactics that I can think of only give you one advantage. Movement makes you harder to hit. Cover the same. Reloading, malfunction clearing, presentation, one armed shooting, weak hand shooting, all important yet limited in benefit.

Pre gunfight its situational awareness IMO.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by threegun

My reasons for placing hitting the target #1 are more than one....

I agree that hitting the target is core, and for the reasons you mentioned. But it could also be a question of what you might need to be able to do proficiently in order to hit the target.

For example, if the situation unfolds quickly, if you can't get your gun out quickly and get accurate shots off quickly, you very well might not be able to hit your target before you're put out of action.

If the situation unfolds in such a way that circumstances require you to shoot with your dominant, or non-dominant hand, only, unless you're sufficiently skilled at shooting with one hand, you might not be able to get your hits on target.

Originally Posted by threegun

...Reloading, malfunction clearing, presentation, one armed shooting, weak hand shooting, all important yet limited in benefit.

But if your particular problem requires you to draw your gun quickly, or reload, or shoot with one hand, in order to solve it, being proficient in those skills can be the difference between surviving and not surviving. I wouldn't call that "limited in benefit."

[threegun]

All revolve around hitting your target however. Those limited benefit skills are important but less often relied upon and all end with the goal of getting that gun going to get those hits.

I didn't mean to lessen the value of those skills BTW. Just wanted to explain why I placed getting hits as #1.

We could manufacture scenario after scenario that would place higher importance on one skill over another but I am speaking in generals.

My order of importance are all set with the assumption that I can hit the target.