Engage or evade?

[JohnKSa]

I see no such option to be able up run Kemosabe.

Well, if you read the OP's question ("Do you run or do you fight?") as being: "Do you run when running is not possible or do you fight?", then I guess I can see where you're coming from.

It all boils down to the exact situation you are faced with.

What it boils down to is whether you can evade or not. If you can evade, doing so is better than an armed confrontation because it eliminates the chances of being shot at. If the circumstances make it impossible, or unreasonable to evade, then you engage and take your chances.

And again, in Texas it's not wise to confront someone with a weapon and threaten them.

It's not wise to do that anywhere since it's illegal.

And again, the fact that the law doesn't require one to retreat in TX doesn't automatically mean that it's tactically sound to engage.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's always a good idea. I got caught in heavy rain yesterday and ended up driving about 50mph lower than the speed limit. It would have been legal for me to drive much faster, but it would have also been stupid given the circumstances.

Similarly, the fact that TX law doesn't require me to retreat wouldn't make it smart for me to get into a gunfight when I could have avoided being shot at.

[shafter]

When there's no 911, nobody around, and nowhere you can barricade yourself, and you find yourself face to face with an armed assailant (s), what reaction would provide the best chance of survival? Do you run or do you fight?

Lots of people survive gunshot wounds. Few do who get shot in the backcountry with no rescue available.

I understand running or evading isn't always an option. If that option isn't available for whatever reason then by all means stand and make a fight of it. However, staying to fight "just because it's legal" isn't wise, even in Texas.

[kraigwy]

This should be no different then the response to an active shooter situation.

1: Flee
2: Hunker down
3: Fight

In that order.

If you can safely get out of the area, that's the best option

If you can't, then hide, I've been in the desert, the jungle, the mountains, and the Arctic. I've never been any place where I couldn't find a place to hunker down.

The third and last option is to fight, if you cant get out of the area, and you are discovered in your hiding place, fight. You have no choice but to cower and wait to die, or fight.

I have combat military training and experience. I have police training and have instructed other police including SWAT.

But I'm not so naïve to believe that in my old age, that I can take on drug cartels.

I certainly cant out run them, (or out run their grandmothers) but I know I can crawl into a brush pile, ditch, or whatever and wait them out.

I'm not a drug dealer, I cant believe they would hunt me down for sport.

I'm pretty sure, that if I can lay in a spot, from before sunrise to well after sunset hunting, then I can do the same if I cross the paths of some druggies. I'm not above laying in hiding, taking a nap even if there is no danger present.

But if cornered then you have no choice but to fight or cower.

I have a tendency to mind my own business now days, I'm not a threat to anyone, therefore I don't see reason to worry about running across bandits in the bush.

Also I will not curtail my late in life activities, if I wanted safety then I'd spend my life on a bar stool at the VFW. Even then I could be in danger of falling off the stool.

Don't let fear control your life. There is no safe place. Life is short, and running out for some of us, I plan on living and enjoying what time I have left.

[agtman]

1) If possible, try to plan your daily affairs and traveling to avoid areas, venues, or situations which would expose you & yours to the risk of active shooter(s). Obviously, you're not omniscient, but situational awareness and a healthy dose of common sense will reduce risk.

2) If you are unavoidably caught up in an active-shooter event, evade and escape at the first opportunity.

3) If you're legally armed and can't evade/escape, engage the A.S. in lawful self-defense only if you have no other option and only if you've had the appropriate training to do so.

[K_Mac]

Also I will not curtail my late in life activities, if I wanted safety then I'd spend my life on a bar stool at the VFW. Even then I could be in danger of falling off the stool.

This is my favorite post in this thread. We can come up with countless scenarios to the point of not leaving the couch, whether young or old. There are many dangers out there! My philosophy is to live my life as fully as I can. I have health issues that will sooner or later kill me. My family and I have come to peace (for the most part) with this. I pay close attention to my body and what is going on around me. I will not avoid the activities that I enjoy because there are some risks involved. Whether confronted by drug carriers on the trail or an angry idiot in the parking lot at Walmart, I will do my very best to avoid trouble or protect myself if that isn't possible. I think that is as good as we can hope for.

[4V50 Gary]

Preferably evade and if not, fighting retreat. I'm no smuggler and figure I'm outgunned and outnumbered.

[F. Guffey]

Run or fight?

That depends on how they are armed, how I am armed, if I can run, if they can run, night, day, rain, snow, number of attackers, number of defenders (or innocents), etc..

In all of the situations I have been involved in running was not an option; I run like a tree. And then straight up; I did not want to be blamed for what was about to happen meaning those that were fleet of foot had to have a chance to get away.

Some how I knew I was going to be blamed and more times than not my mother telling them I was a good kid was not enough.


F. Guffey

[Lohman446]

I'm pretty sure, that if I can lay in a spot, from before sunrise to well after sunset hunting, then I can do the same if I cross the paths of some druggies. I'm not above laying in hiding, taking a nap even if there is no danger present.

I can see the conversation with my wife

Wife: You were gone a long time

Me: Yeh.. I ran into some guys on the trail - looked like drug cartel guys.

Wife: Oh no. What happened?

Me: I ran and hid

Wife: Were they close?

Me: Not certain. I fell asleep

[OldMarksman]

And again, the fact that the law doesn't require one to retreat in TX doesn't automatically mean that it's tactically sound to engage.

Nor does it mean that it would be lawful to do so.

[Moonglum]

Mind. Your. Business.


I realize it's not quite what the OP is asking but I live in a funky part of town and I run into this scenario ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE frequently.

I've seen at least 4 deals happen right in front of me this week. I make a point of taking zero interest. I didn't see it, I didn't hear it it's not my business.

There's a guy in the section8, roach motel apartments across the street that's dealing out of his living room window. I see cars coming and going all night. I make a point of not walking down that street. I have a neighbor who was sitting out on the steps the other night observing the transactions, if I was aware of it you can bet your posterior the dealer was too.

[briandg]

In almost any combat situation that a civilian will encounter, evasion and avoiding combat is the proper answer. What are the chances that you will lose? if you successfully evade, you will not lose. Evasion can be as simple as just sitting quiet and letting the bad guys not engage you.

In fact, you are on defense. you are a civilian, not a soldier, and you are not duty bound to take down the bad guy. This points up that you are not expected to engage, and your only logical reason to engage is to defend your own life. If you aren't alone, engaging if evasion is possible is an absolute sin. If your family is sitting behind cover, you are also behind cover, and the bad guys haven't discovered either hidden areas, engaging the bad guys places your life in great danger. Two men with rifles are a probably more than a match for a single guy with a pistol. So, you nut up and go after the people who look like really bad guys, then get killed, leaving your family or other dependents not only alone, but under threat from the men that just killed you.

Every combate situation is different, but one fact remains. If a civilian finds himself in a dangerous situation, that very rarely requires that the civilian engage the threat if avoiding danger is possible. If it isn't absolutely necessary to engage the bad guys to save lives, the civilian should not engage. in almost every situation, if the threat of death or serious injury, and I mean grave injury are not immediately present, successul evasion is the only logical answer. At the very least, backing away or moving to cover should help your tactical situation.

[chasu]

Krav Maga

[Moonglum]

Two words: Krav Maga

Three words: Are you high?

Did you read the OP? The OP posits you against several well armed men. Let us know how squaring up and throwing roundhouse kicks works for you.

[chasu]

I'm not here to crack around, but you're sort of right, sir. But, you're obviously not familiar with Krav techniques. There's a time and a place for everything. Here's your sign.

[Old Bill Dibble]

I'd very much like to see the hand to hand technique that allows you to deal with several well armed cartel soldiers. If I can add that to my kit I will be unstoppable.

[K_Mac]

Krav Mega is more than hand to hand combat techniques. It utilizes all kinds of weapons, including firearms. It also teaches avoidance as a primary tactic. I have worked out with a couple of guys who practice this discipline. Whether a well trained, well armed and conditioned Krav Mega devotee could defeat a squad of soldiers is unknown. My guess is situational awareness would increase the odds of avoiding that situation.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Somebody needs to update wikipedia then cuz it doesn't say any of that. It does show using some common disarmament techniques against armed assailants.

Bad news with that is that no assassin is going to walk up to me and stick a gun in my face. They are going to put ten rounds in my back from range.

[NateKirk]

The report said that no civilians have been hurt, which makes sense. Why would a cartel, unless you actually stumble upon them doing something, kill someone who doesn't know anything when they're hunting someone else? It would attract unnecessary attention. That being said, if a situation were to arise, I think the best solution is to engage and retreat.

[849ACSO]

People get killed needlessly every day by cops , indirectly, doing such hairbrained chases.

I'm confused......... so the cop rear ended you??

[briandg]

Let me point something out. You aren't a soldier at war, without a clear reason to stand and fight, the very best thing to do is evade as carefully as you can. Successfully evading a fight leaves you alive, getting into a fight brings a whole lot of risk, risks that can't even be calculated.

There have been a lot of discussions as to whether or not a person should go armed into dangerous territories. Being armed can give a person a dangerous feeling of safety. Being unarmed would bring a sense of urgency, of fear, that could encourage a person to be even more careful.

So should a person go into bear country totally unarmed and helpless? Maybe, if it will encourage that person to be more aware, to be safer, to not engage in dangerous activities like smashing through off trail areas that may harbor dangerous critters. Bears, however, are irrational, but not to the extreme that they are completely unlike humans. Normally, neither a bear nor a hoodlum are willing to engage in a life/death struggle with a stranger, and ordinarily, they aren't simply looking to kill you. A grizzly will engage in false charges, a hoodlum will sometimes bluff.

So, simply stated, if you want to stay safe and alive, the best chance you have is to avoid confrontations. That means staying out of the wrong bars, don't gas up after midnight, don't date married women, never wear a trump hat in the wrong area of town, etc. Avoid the confrontations hours before they happen.

[Old Bill Dibble]

I'm confused......... so the cop rear ended you??

59 yrs ago , I was rear ended by a driver by a driver running from the cops, for going through a red light

Nah I think he was saying that; three generations ago, some jerk running from the police decided that his life was worth less than the jerk getting a ticket. Something tells me there is more to the story.

The report said that no civilians have been hurt, which makes sense. Why would a cartel, unless you actually stumble upon them doing something, kill someone who doesn't know anything when they're hunting someone else? It would attract unnecessary attention.

I can think of a ton of reasons beginning with the fact that they are murderously violent drug addicts and don't need a reason at all. Be that as it may; tens of thousands of uninvolved "civilians" have been killed in the last few years in Mexico and the US.

[chasu]

"Krav Mega is more than hand to hand combat techniques. It utilizes all kinds of weapons, including firearms. It also teaches avoidance as a primary tactic. I have worked out with a couple of guys who practice this discipline. Whether a well trained, well armed and conditioned Krav Mega devotee could defeat a squad of soldiers is unknown. My guess is situational awareness would increase the odds of avoiding that situation."

K_Mac .............. Exactly my point. I never said that I would take them on, but my chances of surviving an encounter is greater than the average Joe !

Careful thought and patience could give me an opportunity to take advantage of one slight lapse in judgement or awareness and the party's over. It's not about strong arming an opponent ......... it's about having a plan and knowing when and how to execute it.

Unless one knows ............ one does not truly know.

[briandg]

Two of the smartest people I know believe in it.

[stephen426]

kraigwy's post pretty much covered it all. I would like to add one thing though and I may catch some flak for it: DO NOT OPEN CARRY even if you are legally allowed to do so. If you don't appear like a threat, they may just let you pass. Chances are that they have spotted you way before you ever spot one of them. Make sure you look the part of a backpacker or hiker rather than wearing anything that makes you look like the police (or the bad guys). That means leave your military looking camo, BDUs, or 5.11 gear at home.

Your chances of surviving a gunfight against sicario gangs are slim to none. The moment you fire one shot, that will alert the others. Remember the original poster wrote about the sicarios being placed to ambush anyone trying to intercept their drugs. These are brutal, highly trained cartel soldiers.

If you are being attacked and have no way to evade, then there is little choice but to fight. It would certainly be a last resort though.

You could not pay me enough money to be the chief of police of these border towns. The good guys are expected to operate "in the light" while the cartels operate in darkness. Imagine if you got a letter with pictures of you family members enclosed, but the pictures were taken through a rifle scope. These SOBs can blend in and pop up anywhere. You cannot protect your family at all times. I hate drugs and hate how they ruin peoples' lives, but no one forces anyone to take them. If they were legalized, it would really impact the cartels. We could divert the funds used in battling the drug dealers to prevention and treatment.

[chasu]

Yes, open carry makes very little sense unless bears or big cats are a threat.............. bad guys will make you their first priority in the suburbs if you're showing off your goods.