New re loader here with questions - Page 2

Rifletom · February 14, 2018, 10:07 AM

I'm in agreement with kmw1954 here. What exactly is this "hassle" some speak of here regarding plated bullets for the handloader? Crimping? Set the seater/crimping die properly and you have no hassles. Or, do as a lot of others do and use a Lee FCD for the 4th process. Presto! Simplicity. The link kmw1954 provided for "Accuratepowder" is spot on with info regarding "plated" bullet loading data. I can only reference .38spl and .45auto with like bullets I use[x-treme plated], but, their data closely mirrors my own.
To the OP, learn and go slowly and do not be afraid to ask questions here. You're on the right track.

mikld · February 15, 2018, 12:57 PM

A plated bullet poses no problems with a reloader that has experience with "standard" jacketed and lead bullets. It's the "in between" cast and jacketed that becomes a grey area for new reloaders. Some companies are listing plated bullets in their manuals but not a lot and to a new reloader if it isn't easy to find info it's frustrating and confusing. Yes, there's the "recommendation" to load with "lower jacketed bullet data", but to a new reloader, that can be confusing. Also one with very little or no experience crimping a bullet with no cannalure or crimp groove can be confusing; "how do you crimp a soft bullet that has no cannalure?" is a much asked question by new reloaders.

Most of the time I don't sternly suggest anything to an experienced reloader, I'll just mention what I do, and I certainly don't really care a lot what methods, tools and components a seasoned reloader uses. I'll read what the experienced reloaders say and if it fits my reloading, I'll consider it, but I believe in keeping new reloader suggestions K.I.S.S.

kmw1954 · February 15, 2018, 04:55 PM

mikld, I cannot completely agree or disagree because I do agree on certain points. I have been using plated bullets exclusively since I have restarted to load again about 1.5 years ago. Not quite sure what an "in-between" is. Does that mean not cast lead and not jacketed? Because yes plated is neither of those.

I see it stated everywhere for Plated bullets just use cast lead loads. Well that may work sometimes but by experience I can state it doesn't work most of the time with starting loads. Granted I can only judge this by only the 3 powders and 5 different plated bullets that I've used. Also the plated bullet manufactures state not to exceed 1200fps., well in all honesty I have not found many loads for 9mm that will exceed that w/o going into +P load levels.

I also do not believe I have seen a plated bullet with a cannelure or crimp groove but then it is also my understanding that any bullet with out that should not be roll crimped anyways. So I suppose if one needs a roll crimp then they shouldn't be using plated bullets.

I also have to agree that not being able to find load data for a particular bullet can be frustrating and even disgusting. For instance the true odd ball wild card, the Berry's hollow Base Bullet. There isn't another bullet on the market like it. It is much like a hollow base wadcutter it that it loads completely different than a solid base wadcutter.

I have to agree that there is a lack of information provided by both the bullet makers and the powder makers. Again Western/Accurate has a good listing of Berry's and Rainier plated bullets in all the calibers that I use. Hodgdon is providing some and should do more. Alliant? I haven't used any of their powder since the Hercules days.

I do also believe that as Plated bullets become more widespread in use so will the published data.

Tsquared · February 15, 2018, 05:47 PM

I have tried various plated bullets and have had good success with some and a waist of time and money with some of the others. Plated bullets also do not like much of a crimp if any. I also believe in the K.I.S.S. principal and have found plated bullets take more work developing the load, they are lot more sensitive so everything has to be perfect during the load process, and they will come apart if I use them in my AR-9.

For what the good plated bullets cost I can buy bulk FMJ for about the same price. Most of my target ammo is coated lead and I can get that much cheaper.

On another note, for all new loaders I recommend that pick their powder and select the weight of the bullet and load the exact components in published data. If they get close to the same results of the starting load work it up until a good grouping is found that is clean burning and under the max recommended loads.

Rifletom · February 15, 2018, 07:52 PM

Also to the OP, you have the plated bullets, so, for now, this is your starting point. Different thoughts here on how to proceed, but, we'll walk you thru this. Plenty of folks here to make this work. Not difficult at all. Plated bullets are not the boogey man here, as they are easy enough to load. It seems to be the crimping aspect that most here are concerned with. Just enough flare to help seat the bullet. Then, when it's time, a slight taper crimp. Other's will will say what the correct taper crimp measurement should be. Let's see where this goes. And, good luck.

mikld · February 15, 2018, 08:40 PM

kmw1954. When I tried the 1,100 plated bullets I bough I used lead bullet data. And like any new to me component, I started with the recommended starting loads from my Lyman manuals. I had no problems with the plated bullets but they are recommended to be used with low jacketed velocities and more expensive and a bit less accurate than cast, kinda inbetween. Plated rifle bullets were not available when I tried plated so I have no opinion about them other than the velocity limits.

But I reloaded my first round in '69 and have been reloading fairly constantly since '87 and have a good grasp on the theories and practices of reloading so there was no problems for me. I have used jacketed, cast, Hy-Tek coated, PCed and have PCed a couple thousand bullets. New reloaders, on the other hand don't have the experience to load a plated bullet as easily as jacketed or even lead.

kmw1954 · February 15, 2018, 10:35 PM

mikld, enjoying this conversation, Hope somebody out there is learning a little bit from all this.

When I first started there was no internet, no forums. All I had was a friend that loaded and a Speer #10 book. I started with 38/357 and was lucky enough that the local shop has Speer lead bullets. So I looked in the book to find a load for the Speer 148gr wadcutter and the 158gr SWC and then decided on which powder to buy. Of course like everyone else I started with Bullseye and CCI primers. Eventually I also started using Hornady lead.

When I got back into shooting after many years away my first gun was a 9mm and I already knew that I would start loading again only now I had this great tool, the internet. Then from previous experience I knew cast was cost effective and considered also casting for myself. That is when I found this forum and the one over at Cast Boolits and quickly learned that loading cast for the 9mm can be very problematic. That's how I came to use Plated.

I try to be upfront and admit that I only load for pistol and have not loaded a rifle case since 1982. I don't own a rifle and have no interest in that discipline. So I avoid commenting on anything rifle.

As for the cost of cast lead pistol or plated pistol bullets I find very little cost difference. I buy my bullets in bulk whenever they are on sale. Both Berry's and X-TREME. So that is not a factor to me.

Once again from what I read and follow on the few forums I belong to I see many more questions from new hand loaders having problems getting cast lead bullets to shoot straight and not lead foul their barrels in the 9mm pistols than any other question regarding plated. Which is also the reason I haven't used cast in my 9's.

For my 380 and new 45acp I have reconsidered trying cast as I understand there isn't the inherent problems that are faced with the 9mm.

As I believe I've stated previously my experience with plated bullets and using beginning cast lead data has been very erratic. With the starting powder charge I've experienced most every time a failure to completely cycle the slide causing stovepipes and FTE. Once the charge is bumped up .1 or .2gr then it all goes away and cycles. Yes I agree that revolvers probably do not experience this problem because there is no slide.

Rifletom · February 15, 2018, 11:09 PM

kmw1954 and mikld: Thank you both for your very well informed thoughts on this subject.
Not only will the OP learn from this, others also. Me included. This has been a damn good thread. This is what we come here for.

BBarn · February 16, 2018, 06:47 AM

Berry's tells you what data to use as FITASC pointed out in post 6.

You can listen to the people who made the bullets or you can ask others and get all sorts of answers.

cptjack · February 16, 2018, 08:59 AM

how about hodgon site has loads for pistol

Nathan · February 16, 2018, 09:17 AM

Load data is very important. You might ask yourself what you think will happen if your load is high, low or off in oal? Then ask, how will you know? Then ask yourself can the most accurate load be unsafe?

Also, what variations is your process generating? How can they be known and then improved?

kmw1954 · February 16, 2018, 11:52 AM

BBarn exactly what does Barry's tell you? They don't because they have not done any testing of their product. They tell you to go find data from any source for a bullet of the same weight. So how do you know which one when they are all different? Weight might be the same but length, shape, density, bare cast lead or any myriad of jacket material.

I have in front of me a printout from Western/Accurate powder. For AA#5 there are listings for 7 different bullets for the 115gr 9mm. They range from a start load of 4.8gr to 5.6gr so which one am I supposed to choose?

A year ago Berry's even changed their data that gave a recommended OAL. Now they just list the standard for the caliber.

mikld · February 16, 2018, 01:06 PM

I too started reloading pre-web, when I emptied the cylinder of my first 38 Special in '69 I thought "I wonder if I could reuse these?". Most of my info came from gun magazines and reloading supply vendor's catalogs (I loved my Herters catalogs) and my first load data was from my Lee Loader. instruction sheet, followed by a Speer #11. I never got into the counting of costs for my reloading mainly because it was a hobby I enjoyed, just like I never thought of how much my rods and reels or bait cost for my fishing (red worms cost $.18 each and blood worms cost $.22, which should I buy? Or I could dig earthworms and put them in some water with red food coloring.).

While I try to keep an open mind on forums about equipment, I will speak up if I read suggestions to a new reloader that aren't quite relative or worthless to a new reloader (like telling a new reloader to use a Lee FCD instead of finding out why his reloads won't chamber and fixing the problem). I have taught Auto Electronics Apprentices and learned it's best to keep things K.I.S.S. for the student to get a good, basic understanding of the subject, and the same with reloaders. Starting with basics, with tried and true components and methods is the easier and softer way...

BBarn · February 16, 2018, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmw1954

BBarn exactly what does Barry's tell you? They don't because they have not done any testing of their product. They tell you to go find data from any source for a bullet of the same weight. So how do you know which one when they are all different? Weight might be the same but length, shape, density, bare cast lead or any myriad of jacket material.

I have in front of me a printout from Western/Accurate powder. For AA#5 there are listings for 7 different bullets for the 115gr 9mm. They range from a start load of 4.8gr to 5.6gr so which one am I supposed to choose?

A year ago Berry's even changed their data that gave a recommended OAL. Now they just list the standard for the caliber.

If you want to use #5 (the OP was looking at Bullseye), I believe a safe approach is fairly obvious for anyone who has studied reloading manuals.

kmw1954 · February 17, 2018, 03:45 AM

Directly from Berry's FAQ;

Question: Do you have load data available? COL or OAL?

Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)

-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.

-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.

For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.

Consult Load Data Books! Hmmmm. So one of the load data books recommended lists 7 different bullets of the same weight with many different powders, they all have different loads so again what is this obvious selection you mention? They even list 2 different Berry's bullets and they both have different data. Does it make a difference or since they are the same weight should I just pick one? After all Berry's states they are all the same.

SkipperT · February 17, 2018, 08:07 AM

Burn rates on powder.
Do we look for a faster burning powder for a 9mm in a short barrel (4 inch or so)?
Will the quicker burn then create the pressures needed to accelerate the projectile down the barrel and maintain the velocity we are looking for?
I thought I read that folks use slower powders in rifle charges as there is more mass in the projectile and to maintain pressure in the barrel as the projectile moves toward the muzzle.

Wag · February 17, 2018, 10:45 AM

This thread is a great primer for first time reloaders. You'd still have to read the manuals, of course, but great info here.

As with others, I started loading Berry's plated bullets before the internet was in full swing and their instruction sheet said to use the same load data as I had for lead bullets, same weight, same shape. I did that and never had any issues. Accuracy/precision was just fine and I got good groups out of my pistols and revolvers. It was just plain old plinking ammo but it worked very well.

What I noticed, though, is that depending on what load manual I used, the data was all over the spectrum. Using a Speer book delivered radically different load data than the Lyman book and both were different than the other books I had. When I saw that, I just compared them all and started with the lowest of them and worked up from there until I hit an accurate load, then stopped. I never felt like I needed the load with the highest pressures or velocities.

As for crimping, I rarely crimp much anyway, just a very light taper crimp which is mostly just to get the flare back out of the brass.

As mentioned, the K.I.S.S. rule works. Be safe, but you don't have to over think it.

--Wag--

Rifletom · February 17, 2018, 10:53 AM

Wag said it pretty good. And simple. Nicely put.

kmw1954 · February 17, 2018, 10:04 PM

Like all of this I imagine why the #1 rule for starting is always get a good book! Not only will it provide the basics and a constant reference but it should also provide a very good idea of which components one could use or at least give a reference as to what to look for.

If you need to buy locally then shop for what is available, start a list. Most starters are not going to be ordering 10,000 primers or 10lbs of powder so as we all know hazmat fees can eat up any savings you find on line. Look around and know what powders are available to you locally.. Try to find a load in the manual with components that are readily available and actually have load data published. Take the time to research what the powder companies have available. I find I go there now first because it is usually the most current information available. Also they are trying to sell powder for as many different bullets as possible were the bullet makers are only interested in selling their bullets and they don't care what powder you use.

I only hope that we didn't muddy and confuse the waters too much to turn someone away.

SkipperT · February 18, 2018, 09:04 PM

Ok, today was the day, finished the set up of the Lee classic Turret press.
Took it all apart and cleaned and lubed everything. Starting from scratch so to speak.
I downloaded the Hodsdon load data for titegroup and used the data for lead round nose bullet's.
115 Gn copper plated RN.
10 rounds each at 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 grains. COL 1.104.
Max load is 4.3, but what can I say, dinner was ready and you can call me anything you want,,, but late for dinner!! LOL
Tomorrow I will shoot and log the results.
This should be interesting.

kmw1954 · February 18, 2018, 09:51 PM

Good for you SkipperT!
Really hope you enjoyed your new pastime along with that new press.
I do have to question your COL though. 1.104 seems awful short. Are you sure you didn't mean 1.140"?

Now this is also just me but when I start a new load for the 1st time when I test fire I always load one round at a time in my auto loaders. Just as a safety precaution and also to check function, will it feed an eject and lock the slide back. At least with the first starting loads. My one gun is rather heavy and will many times not fully cycle with starting loads.

Lest us know how your day at the range goes with your test rounds!

warnerwh · February 19, 2018, 01:44 AM

"Will the quicker burn then create the pressures needed to accelerate the projectile down the barrel and maintain the velocity we are looking for?" You referenced a 4" barrel.

It doesn't work that way but some people will still try to tell you it does. You can call a powder manufacturer if you don't believe me. Believe it or not a slow burning powder for a particular cartridge will give the highest velocity even in a 2" snubby barrel.

An example for you: If you are loading .357 and using Bullseye, a fast burning powder, you will never get the same velocity in any barrel length, both being the same, you can get with say H110, a slow burning handgun powder. With the Bullseye you will probably blow up your gun trying to get the same velocity you can get with H110 due to too much pressure for your gun.

So your 4" 9mm barrel will get the higher velocity with a slower burning powder. And a slow burning powder for a 9mm isn't the same as one for a .357. Btw rifle powders are usually significantly slower burning than handgun/shotgun powders.

I hope this helps you understand a bit more about what is going on. You are going to be glad you started loading your own ammo not only because of cost savings but the extreme versatility you can't get with factory ammo.

SkipperT · February 19, 2018, 07:51 AM

Kmw1954, The COL from Hodgdon's website called for an overall length of 1.100" so I left it touch longer.
I started with this new machine, de-capping, resizing and re-priming 100 rounds. Just to get the feel and learn the process.
Then I worked with the flare and powder drop die until I got the flare just enough to start the bullet.
I moved on the bullet seating die and got it started and tweaked to the 1.104" setting,, that was a slow but fun process, and then set the crimping die to just a touch of a crimp. I did not see any deflection of the soft copper coating so I hope I am doing this right.
Then I started with the powder drum and tweaked this for an hour or two again figuring out how the thing worked and whether it is was consistent or not. It wasn't to bad I did see slight variations of +/- 0.02 gns pf powder. I verified the powder drop with both the Lee Beam scale and an electronic scale I bought.
As I did the 10 loads for each setting, I checked everything every other round and seems to be very consistent.
The reason I have done 10 loads each is because I am going to test two firearms, a Glock 17 and SW Shield. I chose these as the Glock I use every week at IPSC and the Shield is new with a pretty stiff spring. Figure this should give me a pretty solid idea of whether or not these loads will work.
Have to start somewhere.

SkipperT · February 19, 2018, 08:26 AM

Here is the data I used:
BULLET WEIGHT
115 GR. LRN
Starting Loads Maximum Loads
Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam.
C.O.L. Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.100" 3.9 1,075 25,800 CUP 4.3 1,151 30,500 CUP

kmw1954 · February 19, 2018, 08:56 AM

SkipperT, just looked thru my notes and data and yes from the looks of things the LRN are loaded short with a much reduced powder charge. The reason I mentioned anything is because I an use to seating the 115gr Berry's plated bullet out at 1.130" to 1.140" with both the HP-38 and the Ramshot powders.

Again good luck, have fun and post back your results! I know I'll be waiting to hear from you.

February 15, 2018, 12:57 PM	#27
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	A plated bullet poses no problems with a reloader that has experience with "standard" jacketed and lead bullets. It's the "in between" cast and jacketed that becomes a grey area for new reloaders. Some companies are listing plated bullets in their manuals but not a lot and to a new reloader if it isn't easy to find info it's frustrating and confusing. Yes, there's the "recommendation" to load with "lower jacketed bullet data", but to a new reloader, that can be confusing. Also one with very little or no experience crimping a bullet with no cannalure or crimp groove can be confusing; "how do you crimp a soft bullet that has no cannalure?" is a much asked question by new reloaders. Most of the time I don't sternly suggest anything to an experienced reloader, I'll just mention what I do, and I certainly don't really care a lot what methods, tools and components a seasoned reloader uses. I'll read what the experienced reloaders say and if it fits my reloading, I'll consider it, but I believe in keeping new reloader suggestions K.I.S.S. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

February 15, 2018, 08:40 PM	#31
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	kmw1954. When I tried the 1,100 plated bullets I bough I used lead bullet data. And like any new to me component, I started with the recommended starting loads from my Lyman manuals. I had no problems with the plated bullets but they are recommended to be used with low jacketed velocities and more expensive and a bit less accurate than cast, kinda inbetween. Plated rifle bullets were not available when I tried plated so I have no opinion about them other than the velocity limits. But I reloaded my first round in '69 and have been reloading fairly constantly since '87 and have a good grasp on the theories and practices of reloading so there was no problems for me. I have used jacketed, cast, Hy-Tek coated, PCed and have PCed a couple thousand bullets. New reloaders, on the other hand don't have the experience to load a plated bullet as easily as jacketed or even lead. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

February 16, 2018, 06:47 AM	#34
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Berry's tells you what data to use as FITASC pointed out in post 6. You can listen to the people who made the bullets or you can ask others and get all sorts of answers. Last edited by BBarn; February 16, 2018 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Revised reference

February 16, 2018, 01:06 PM	#38
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I too started reloading pre-web, when I emptied the cylinder of my first 38 Special in '69 I thought "I wonder if I could reuse these?". Most of my info came from gun magazines and reloading supply vendor's catalogs (I loved my Herters catalogs) and my first load data was from my Lee Loader. instruction sheet, followed by a Speer #11. I never got into the counting of costs for my reloading mainly because it was a hobby I enjoyed, just like I never thought of how much my rods and reels or bait cost for my fishing (red worms cost $.18 each and blood worms cost $.22, which should I buy? Or I could dig earthworms and put them in some water with red food coloring.). While I try to keep an open mind on forums about equipment, I will speak up if I read suggestions to a new reloader that aren't quite relative or worthless to a new reloader (like telling a new reloader to use a Lee FCD instead of finding out why his reloads won't chamber and fixing the problem). I have taught Auto Electronics Apprentices and learned it's best to keep things K.I.S.S. for the student to get a good, basic understanding of the subject, and the same with reloaders. Starting with basics, with tried and true components and methods is the easier and softer way... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

February 17, 2018, 10:45 AM	#42
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 988	This thread is a great primer for first time reloaders. You'd still have to read the manuals, of course, but great info here. As with others, I started loading Berry's plated bullets before the internet was in full swing and their instruction sheet said to use the same load data as I had for lead bullets, same weight, same shape. I did that and never had any issues. Accuracy/precision was just fine and I got good groups out of my pistols and revolvers. It was just plain old plinking ammo but it worked very well. What I noticed, though, is that depending on what load manual I used, the data was all over the spectrum. Using a Speer book delivered radically different load data than the Lyman book and both were different than the other books I had. When I saw that, I just compared them all and started with the lowest of them and worked up from there until I hit an accurate load, then stopped. I never felt like I needed the load with the highest pressures or velocities. As for crimping, I rarely crimp much anyway, just a very light taper crimp which is mostly just to get the flare back out of the brass. As mentioned, the K.I.S.S. rule works. Be safe, but you don't have to over think it. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

February 14, 2018, 10:07 AM	#26
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	I'm in agreement with kmw1954 here. What exactly is this "hassle" some speak of here regarding plated bullets for the handloader? Crimping? Set the seater/crimping die properly and you have no hassles. Or, do as a lot of others do and use a Lee FCD for the 4th process. Presto! Simplicity. The link kmw1954 provided for "Accuratepowder" is spot on with info regarding "plated" bullet loading data. I can only reference .38spl and .45auto with like bullets I use[x-treme plated], but, their data closely mirrors my own. To the OP, learn and go slowly and do not be afraid to ask questions here. You're on the right track.

February 15, 2018, 04:55 PM	#28
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	mikld, I cannot completely agree or disagree because I do agree on certain points. I have been using plated bullets exclusively since I have restarted to load again about 1.5 years ago. Not quite sure what an "in-between" is. Does that mean not cast lead and not jacketed? Because yes plated is neither of those. I see it stated everywhere for Plated bullets just use cast lead loads. Well that may work sometimes but by experience I can state it doesn't work most of the time with starting loads. Granted I can only judge this by only the 3 powders and 5 different plated bullets that I've used. Also the plated bullet manufactures state not to exceed 1200fps., well in all honesty I have not found many loads for 9mm that will exceed that w/o going into +P load levels. I also do not believe I have seen a plated bullet with a cannelure or crimp groove but then it is also my understanding that any bullet with out that should not be roll crimped anyways. So I suppose if one needs a roll crimp then they shouldn't be using plated bullets. I also have to agree that not being able to find load data for a particular bullet can be frustrating and even disgusting. For instance the true odd ball wild card, the Berry's hollow Base Bullet. There isn't another bullet on the market like it. It is much like a hollow base wadcutter it that it loads completely different than a solid base wadcutter. I have to agree that there is a lack of information provided by both the bullet makers and the powder makers. Again Western/Accurate has a good listing of Berry's and Rainier plated bullets in all the calibers that I use. Hodgdon is providing some and should do more. Alliant? I haven't used any of their powder since the Hercules days. I do also believe that as Plated bullets become more widespread in use so will the published data.

February 15, 2018, 05:47 PM	#29
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	I have tried various plated bullets and have had good success with some and a waist of time and money with some of the others. Plated bullets also do not like much of a crimp if any. I also believe in the K.I.S.S. principal and have found plated bullets take more work developing the load, they are lot more sensitive so everything has to be perfect during the load process, and they will come apart if I use them in my AR-9. For what the good plated bullets cost I can buy bulk FMJ for about the same price. Most of my target ammo is coated lead and I can get that much cheaper. On another note, for all new loaders I recommend that pick their powder and select the weight of the bullet and load the exact components in published data. If they get close to the same results of the starting load work it up until a good grouping is found that is clean burning and under the max recommended loads.

February 15, 2018, 07:52 PM	#30
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	Also to the OP, you have the plated bullets, so, for now, this is your starting point. Different thoughts here on how to proceed, but, we'll walk you thru this. Plenty of folks here to make this work. Not difficult at all. Plated bullets are not the boogey man here, as they are easy enough to load. It seems to be the crimping aspect that most here are concerned with. Just enough flare to help seat the bullet. Then, when it's time, a slight taper crimp. Other's will will say what the correct taper crimp measurement should be. Let's see where this goes. And, good luck.

February 15, 2018, 10:35 PM	#32
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	mikld, enjoying this conversation, Hope somebody out there is learning a little bit from all this. When I first started there was no internet, no forums. All I had was a friend that loaded and a Speer #10 book. I started with 38/357 and was lucky enough that the local shop has Speer lead bullets. So I looked in the book to find a load for the Speer 148gr wadcutter and the 158gr SWC and then decided on which powder to buy. Of course like everyone else I started with Bullseye and CCI primers. Eventually I also started using Hornady lead. When I got back into shooting after many years away my first gun was a 9mm and I already knew that I would start loading again only now I had this great tool, the internet. Then from previous experience I knew cast was cost effective and considered also casting for myself. That is when I found this forum and the one over at Cast Boolits and quickly learned that loading cast for the 9mm can be very problematic. That's how I came to use Plated. I try to be upfront and admit that I only load for pistol and have not loaded a rifle case since 1982. I don't own a rifle and have no interest in that discipline. So I avoid commenting on anything rifle. As for the cost of cast lead pistol or plated pistol bullets I find very little cost difference. I buy my bullets in bulk whenever they are on sale. Both Berry's and X-TREME. So that is not a factor to me. Once again from what I read and follow on the few forums I belong to I see many more questions from new hand loaders having problems getting cast lead bullets to shoot straight and not lead foul their barrels in the 9mm pistols than any other question regarding plated. Which is also the reason I haven't used cast in my 9's. For my 380 and new 45acp I have reconsidered trying cast as I understand there isn't the inherent problems that are faced with the 9mm. As I believe I've stated previously my experience with plated bullets and using beginning cast lead data has been very erratic. With the starting powder charge I've experienced most every time a failure to completely cycle the slide causing stovepipes and FTE. Once the charge is bumped up .1 or .2gr then it all goes away and cycles. Yes I agree that revolvers probably do not experience this problem because there is no slide.

February 15, 2018, 11:09 PM	#33
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	kmw1954 and mikld: Thank you both for your very well informed thoughts on this subject. Not only will the OP learn from this, others also. Me included. This has been a damn good thread. This is what we come here for.

February 16, 2018, 08:59 AM	#35
cptjack Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2014 Posts: 314	how about hodgon site has loads for pistol

February 16, 2018, 09:17 AM	#36
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Load data is very important. You might ask yourself what you think will happen if your load is high, low or off in oal? Then ask, how will you know? Then ask yourself can the most accurate load be unsafe? Also, what variations is your process generating? How can they be known and then improved?

February 16, 2018, 11:52 AM	#37
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	BBarn exactly what does Barry's tell you? They don't because they have not done any testing of their product. They tell you to go find data from any source for a bullet of the same weight. So how do you know which one when they are all different? Weight might be the same but length, shape, density, bare cast lead or any myriad of jacket material. I have in front of me a printout from Western/Accurate powder. For AA#5 there are listings for 7 different bullets for the 115gr 9mm. They range from a start load of 4.8gr to 5.6gr so which one am I supposed to choose? A year ago Berry's even changed their data that gave a recommended OAL. Now they just list the standard for the caliber.

February 17, 2018, 03:45 AM	#40
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Directly from Berry's FAQ; Question: Do you have load data available? COL or OAL? Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.) -Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps. -Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps. For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE. Consult Load Data Books! Hmmmm. So one of the load data books recommended lists 7 different bullets of the same weight with many different powders, they all have different loads so again what is this obvious selection you mention? They even list 2 different Berry's bullets and they both have different data. Does it make a difference or since they are the same weight should I just pick one? After all Berry's states they are all the same.

February 17, 2018, 08:07 AM	#41
SkipperT Member Join Date: February 11, 2018 Posts: 15	Burn rates on powder. Do we look for a faster burning powder for a 9mm in a short barrel (4 inch or so)? Will the quicker burn then create the pressures needed to accelerate the projectile down the barrel and maintain the velocity we are looking for? I thought I read that folks use slower powders in rifle charges as there is more mass in the projectile and to maintain pressure in the barrel as the projectile moves toward the muzzle.

February 17, 2018, 10:53 AM	#43
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 789	Wag said it pretty good. And simple. Nicely put.

February 17, 2018, 10:04 PM	#44
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Like all of this I imagine why the #1 rule for starting is always get a good book! Not only will it provide the basics and a constant reference but it should also provide a very good idea of which components one could use or at least give a reference as to what to look for. If you need to buy locally then shop for what is available, start a list. Most starters are not going to be ordering 10,000 primers or 10lbs of powder so as we all know hazmat fees can eat up any savings you find on line. Look around and know what powders are available to you locally.. Try to find a load in the manual with components that are readily available and actually have load data published. Take the time to research what the powder companies have available. I find I go there now first because it is usually the most current information available. Also they are trying to sell powder for as many different bullets as possible were the bullet makers are only interested in selling their bullets and they don't care what powder you use. I only hope that we didn't muddy and confuse the waters too much to turn someone away.

February 18, 2018, 09:04 PM	#45
SkipperT Member Join Date: February 11, 2018 Posts: 15	Ok, today was the day, finished the set up of the Lee classic Turret press. Took it all apart and cleaned and lubed everything. Starting from scratch so to speak. I downloaded the Hodsdon load data for titegroup and used the data for lead round nose bullet's. 115 Gn copper plated RN. 10 rounds each at 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 grains. COL 1.104. Max load is 4.3, but what can I say, dinner was ready and you can call me anything you want,,, but late for dinner!! LOL Tomorrow I will shoot and log the results. This should be interesting.

February 18, 2018, 09:51 PM	#46
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Good for you SkipperT! Really hope you enjoyed your new pastime along with that new press. I do have to question your COL though. 1.104 seems awful short. Are you sure you didn't mean 1.140"? Now this is also just me but when I start a new load for the 1st time when I test fire I always load one round at a time in my auto loaders. Just as a safety precaution and also to check function, will it feed an eject and lock the slide back. At least with the first starting loads. My one gun is rather heavy and will many times not fully cycle with starting loads. Lest us know how your day at the range goes with your test rounds!

February 19, 2018, 01:44 AM	#47
warnerwh Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Posts: 329	"Will the quicker burn then create the pressures needed to accelerate the projectile down the barrel and maintain the velocity we are looking for?" You referenced a 4" barrel. It doesn't work that way but some people will still try to tell you it does. You can call a powder manufacturer if you don't believe me. Believe it or not a slow burning powder for a particular cartridge will give the highest velocity even in a 2" snubby barrel. An example for you: If you are loading .357 and using Bullseye, a fast burning powder, you will never get the same velocity in any barrel length, both being the same, you can get with say H110, a slow burning handgun powder. With the Bullseye you will probably blow up your gun trying to get the same velocity you can get with H110 due to too much pressure for your gun. So your 4" 9mm barrel will get the higher velocity with a slower burning powder. And a slow burning powder for a 9mm isn't the same as one for a .357. Btw rifle powders are usually significantly slower burning than handgun/shotgun powders. I hope this helps you understand a bit more about what is going on. You are going to be glad you started loading your own ammo not only because of cost savings but the extreme versatility you can't get with factory ammo. __________________ Portland, Or

February 19, 2018, 07:51 AM	#48
SkipperT Member Join Date: February 11, 2018 Posts: 15	Kmw1954, The COL from Hodgdon's website called for an overall length of 1.100" so I left it touch longer. I started with this new machine, de-capping, resizing and re-priming 100 rounds. Just to get the feel and learn the process. Then I worked with the flare and powder drop die until I got the flare just enough to start the bullet. I moved on the bullet seating die and got it started and tweaked to the 1.104" setting,, that was a slow but fun process, and then set the crimping die to just a touch of a crimp. I did not see any deflection of the soft copper coating so I hope I am doing this right. Then I started with the powder drum and tweaked this for an hour or two again figuring out how the thing worked and whether it is was consistent or not. It wasn't to bad I did see slight variations of +/- 0.02 gns pf powder. I verified the powder drop with both the Lee Beam scale and an electronic scale I bought. As I did the 10 loads for each setting, I checked everything every other round and seems to be very consistent. The reason I have done 10 loads each is because I am going to test two firearms, a Glock 17 and SW Shield. I chose these as the Glock I use every week at IPSC and the Shield is new with a pretty stiff spring. Figure this should give me a pretty solid idea of whether or not these loads will work. Have to start somewhere.

February 19, 2018, 08:26 AM	#49
SkipperT Member Join Date: February 11, 2018 Posts: 15	Here is the data I used: BULLET WEIGHT 115 GR. LRN Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.100" 3.9 1,075 25,800 CUP 4.3 1,151 30,500 CUP

February 19, 2018, 08:56 AM	#50
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	SkipperT, just looked thru my notes and data and yes from the looks of things the LRN are loaded short with a much reduced powder charge. The reason I mentioned anything is because I an use to seating the 115gr Berry's plated bullet out at 1.130" to 1.140" with both the HP-38 and the Ramshot powders. Again good luck, have fun and post back your results! I know I'll be waiting to hear from you.