Carrying Personal Weapons in Military

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by joed

I think things are different in a combat zone. While in Vietnam I saw many guns that you normally wouldn't see. One of the pilots carryed a Ruger Blackhawk, while someone carried a .45 tommy gun on patrols. I had a sergeant that carried a Browning hi power. There were many more that I can't recall at the moment.

Pilots of what?

FWIW I read a book a while back about Vietnam scout helicopter ops flying the OH-6A Cayuse aka Loach, and the author reported having routinely worn a Colt Python(!) during combat missions.

His explanation was that the Army was perpetually short on scout helo pilots since they were in high demand and the missions were very dangerous; to help meet recruitment goals, helicopter pilots were allowed to enlist as warrant officers who were only obligated to serve a preset number of tours of duty. Commanders knew that the pilots wouldn't reenlist unless they were kept happy, and since few of them intended to pursue promotions, most didn't care about minor disciplinary black marks going on their permanent record. The result was that discipline was rather loose when no senior officers from off-base were present.

[SIGSHR]

Respect an Army value ? Not in the Army I was in 1967-1971. The Army I served was not so much anti-gun as it was ungun. Small arms were seen as at best a necessary evil and and as an annoyance and nuisance. They were a source of endless gigs at inspection time, a PITB to inventory, the loss of a small arm was greater offense than losing classified information or an aircraft. Rifle and pistol teams, gunnery competitions had all ended, recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent.
People went on Guard Duty with a mop handle or broomstick to guard equipment and sensitive installations.
On another board someone pointed out that the reason why poor leaders do so much damage in the military is because the workers can't quit.

[joed]

Originally Posted by carguychris

Pilots of what?

FWIW I read a book a while back about Vietnam scout helicopter ops flying the OH-6A Cayuse aka Loach, and the author reported having routinely worn a Colt Python(!) during combat missions.

His explanation was that the Army was perpetually short on scout helo pilots since they were in high demand and the missions were very dangerous; to help meet recruitment goals, helicopter pilots were allowed to enlist as warrant officers who were only obligated to serve a preset number of tours of duty. Commanders knew that the pilots wouldn't reenlist unless they were kept happy, and since few of them intended to pursue promotions, most didn't care about minor disciplinary black marks going on their permanent record. The result was that discipline was rather loose when no senior officers from off-base were present.

The pilots I was referring to were the pilot and observer on the LOH aircraft. As said it was a dangerous life but it was better then marching over the land. I never understood carrying a Blackhawk .357 that was slow to reload.

I was trained as a crew chief for Cobras but in the time I was there I had many jobs, including flying in a LOH for a short time.

But in the time I was in Vietnam I saw my share of guns that were not issued by the ARMY.

[jimbob86]

Every unit is as different as it's Chain of Command ..... and things in a particular unit can change very drastically with a Change of Command ...... and the Army as a whole changes over time, as well ..... I saw plenty of change in the 11 years I was in (84'-95') .... and heard enough from others that I served with about units that they had come from or went to subsequently ..... I also know that much of what gets passed around is pure BS ("War/Sea Stories") ..... and so few people today have any military experience at all in relation to the total population, that a lot of BS can't be verified. ..... and then were things that did actually happen that would get swept under whatever rug or trash pile was handy .... really unbelievable stuff .... but it happened.

[jmhyer]

Thanks for the reply, Fred. I'm also thankful for the reply of Ozean, who, I think, nailed it. Allow the option of armed carry, be it open or concealed, on military bases for those who would otherwise be able to do so as a private citizen...namely, those over the age of 21 who can apply for, and be issued, a permit.

[Bob Wright]

In the current issue of True West magazine there is an article of an Army officer who carried a Colt Single Action Army in .44-40 caliber. The gun was nickeled with the hard rubber stocks.

Supposedly the gun was carried both during the Korean war and in Vietnam. The gun was sent to him by his wife while he was serving in Korea as a captain, and is engraved along the backstrap as such. He was a major general in Vietnam. He was Gen. Stan Leon McClellan

According to the article, he was laid to rest in "Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors, it was according to his last wish in his camouflaged fatigues with his medals of valor pinned on his chest, and his General Officer's .45 ACP holstered, loaded, cocked and locked, so that he would be ready when his country calls."


Bob Wright

[ms6852]

Funny thing is that I served for 21 years and I cannot honestly say if it was true. Never ever thought about it and did not care because I was assigned an M16 or a 1911, depending on my duty assignment. Our personal knives were not a big deal with any of the units I was assigned. I carried a Carl Schleipper fixed blade and a 110 buck knife than. I did not own any firearms until I retired from the military. For me it would have been too much of a hassle to have had to transport and register all my firearms. This was like the knife I carried.http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xgAAAO...S8R/s-l400.jpg

[5whiskey]

It is a no-no and I suspect this gentleman is lying. It CAN be done, but you must make well connected friends willing to stick their necks out. I deployed to Iraq and afghanistan as USMC infantry. I made a comment one time about wanting to take my 1911 to the unit armory rep. He told me if I got it over (easy as there really wasn't a bag check going over), he would put it on the armory connex on the way back. See getting it back is the problem as your belongings WILL get thoroughly searched. It is possible if you can stash it in a gear connex.

I decided that it wasn't worth it. Not only was I counting on a buddy to pull through 7-8 months later, I also didn't know how long it would take for that connex to get stateside or who would be around when it was unpacked.

In the end I think the guy was fibbing. He definitely wasnt supposed to take a personal weapon, and it sounds more like a braggart story. I don't tell many stories about Iraq. I personally just want to forget the place.

[44 AMP]

The carry, and use of "unauthorized" weapons, especially handguns, by people of rank, and people of no rank, during WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam is well documented.

Sometimes they were war trophies, sometimes they were sent by relatives, sometimes they were acquired on the black market. Sometimes they went home with their owners, sometimes they were passed on to others in theater.

I know that the troops fighting in "the sandbox" are more rigidly regulated than earlier wars, but I'm certain a degree of the same thing still goes on.

I can tell you from personal experience that just about ANY handgun is more useful inside your sleeping bag than an M16. And that there are still people in the military who value their own skins higher than what they consider BS regulations. I clearly remember a time when, one of the common answers to "hey, that's against regulations!" was "what are they going to do??? Bend my Dog Tags and send me to Viet Nam???" (especially when you were already in Viet Nam)

The same still goes on today. The sense of personal security provided by an "unauthorized" handgun overrides "mickey mouse" regulations for some folks. Once upon a time, commanders allowed for this. I think some still do, as long as everything flies under the radar.

There are many stories from vets about how a pistol that they weren't officially allowed to have saved their butts. I've read about a .38 that went through several Marine's hands on one of the island campaigns.

One fellow I knew who fought in the pacific really wanted a Japanese pistol as a war trophy (and yes, he did carry "unauthorized"). He finally got his "Jap Pistol" on the FOURTH try. The first three pistols he captured were all American made, 2 S&Ws and a Colt!! nicely made Japanese holsters, but US guns!! (Japanese officers apparently liked American pistols )

[Cirdan]

GO #1 in Iraq prohibited personal weapons.

Not saying it didn't happen sometimes, but I suspect the guy was BS'ing you.

[jmr40]

I have several friends who have served in the Middle East dating back to the 1st Gulf War in the 1990's up to the present. All of them have said that non-issue weapons, especially handguns were available. But it was impossible to bring one over or bring it back. Most were picked up after they got there. When they left the country they'd give it to someone else and it continued to be passed down as troops rotated out. This was technically not allowed, but it still happened.

I know that some high ranking officers are the exception as well as some Special Forces soldiers. Some of those guys have a lot of leeway as to what they can use.

[armoredman]

We had a pallet of ammo on my ship for "special" troops, and I can tell you it had a LOT of unusual calibers and origins. Lots of Russian and Chinese stuff too. Don't remember where we unloaded it.

[WC145]

The "modern" military is hardly the same as it was during Vietnam and earlier wars and it is a lot less tolerant of such shenanigans. I was in in the early '80s and nothing much as happening in the world so it was a nonissue during my enlistment. My son is 10 years USAF, he's in spec ops with multiple combat visits to the middle east under his belt(currently deployed somewhere doing something for an indeterminate amount of time). He had I have discussed this sort of thing and, per him, personally owned firearms in theater doesn't happen these days or, if it does, is incredibly rare and a great way to ruin your career, he's never seen one in all of his deployments and he works with other spec ops types from all branches as well as other countries, in addition to conventional troops. He says they all kinds of different weapons available to them and no need to take the risk of trying to bring a gun from home with them. In his case, his issued weapons are a Glock G19, an M4, and a SCAR-H, with a multitude of others available for mission specific needs.

Magazines are not an issue and he and everyone he works with uses PMags if they're available for the platform. Knives are also a non-issue, they are issued different knives including automatics, but everyone also carries personally owned blades and everyone carries more than one.

My son has no reason to BS me so I'd say that the person the OP is talking about is BSing him.

[Andy Blozinski]

I'm surprised there were posters on this thread that actually thought .45 ammo would be hard to get in the US military. It's still available and .45s had a resurgence of popularity in Iraq. Someone carrying their personal .45 would not have been recognized as different from someone carrying one that was supplied to them.
There was a shortage of .556 ammo for a long time because we hadn't prepared for anything past the invasion. Hordes of captured PPSH-41s got used over there. They're great compact close quarters weapons. A buddy of mine used one. I was on a different forum where some ex army guy said stupid civilians didn't know what they were talking about and were making this all up. Someone promptly posted a dozen photos of US army soldiers packing PPSH-41s in situations that were practical operations and not range posing.

[ROCK6]

So, a good friend and NCO working in a LRS unit during one of the first waves into Iraq did exactly that. He as able to purchase his Springfield 1911 and had it shipped to his unit address before he deployed (at a great cost BTW). His commander approved his use of it, but ammo was limited. It's rare to non-existent in conventional units and especially in established theaters, but some units get more leeway than others and with immature theaters, it's easier.

ROCK6

[Go_Ordnance]

I call shenanigans. CENTCOM policy is no personal weapons or ammo. Company, Battalion, Brigade, Division, etc... commanders don't outrank the CENTCOM commander. They aren't approving personal weapons.

Cool guys might get the occasional exception, but cool guys have access to govt purchased cool-guy stuff. So really there's no need for them to have exceptions for personal weapons. The ones I ran into had issue M9's and P226's for handguns, but they had a lot of non-standard rifles. SBR or suppressed M4's, SCARs, etc...

Did some folks sneak their personal weapons into and out of theater? Probably, but not very many.

I am an active duty officer (prior enlisted), starting my 31st year of service.

[hdwhit]

fredvon4 wrote:
The Ops post really confuses me

I was drafted 1973 and retired after 14 months Army Command Sergeants Major CSM in 1996

Don't you mean 14 "years" later? There is no person in the military who had made the trip from buck private to CAM in 14 months.

Went to combat several times but not Vietnam...

How did you miss out on Vietnam? Due to the severe shortage of NCOs during Vietnam, NCOs were rotating through every three to five years.

I was sent from TRADOC Ft Eustis VA for a specific mission.

When were you at Eustis? I ask because dependingf on the date my father may have been your commanding officer.

[hdwhit]

Barry Lee wrote:
...I was under the impression that other than some Special Forces and maybe Officers that this just wasn’t allowed.

According to my father, who commanded the 5th Transportation Command out of Qhi Nhon, in the late 1960's - early 1970's, during Vietnam, the attitude (not necessarily the law, regulation or policy) was that so long as you could 1) turn in any weapons issued to you by the government, and 2) weren't trying to take back home any fully-automatic weapons as war trophies, it was pretty much a case of "anything goes" while "in-country".

[hdwhit]

Go Ordnance wrote:
...CENTCOM policy is no personal weapons or ammo. Company, Battalion, Brigade, Division, etc... commanders don't outrank the CENTCOM commander. They aren't approving personal weapons.

Well, there's a big difference between "approving" the carry of personal weapons and "tolerating" those do did in spite of policy.

[Go_Ordnance]

Originally Posted by hdwhit

Well, there's a big difference between "approving" the carry of personal weapons and "tolerating" those do did in spite of policy.

Is there supposed to be a relevant point somewhere in there?

[Dfariswheel]

I remembered reading a report that there was at least one Navy air group on a carrier who made a group purchase of privately owned Ruger 9mm pistols.

The pistols were kept in the carrier armory and issued to the owner for combat ops, then returned to the armory.
Upon return home, each crewman took his personal Ruger with him.

There was also that famous photo in the Iraq war of an officer and NCO with amazed looks examining a box full of pistols found in one of Saddam's palaces.
They were longingly examining a pair of 2 1/2 inch Colt Pythons.
They were very disappointed that they couldn't take them home even though they were American made commercial guns.

[UncleEd]

I've read though this entire thread and
I think WC145 finally touched on a point
that I was considering.

Today's military is the all-volunteer kind
and officers and enlisted personnel all
volunteered for service.

In former times, many officers and most
enlisted were civilians at heart drafted
into the services. Their views were
different about a whole gamut of military
ethos including regulations.

[cw308]

I served in Vietnam 67-68 , l carried M16 sometimes M 60 some of my friends would carry extra handguns that weren't Army issue . Just extra weight but everyone carried what was issued to you . Getting them home I don't think so . When I left Vietnam they checked our duffle bags , confiscated rolls of film not developed any captured weapons , we left Vietnam unarmed . Those weapons were left to your friends still in country who wanted them . There was a guy in our company that got cought shipping weapons home in whole baggage that he took from the QC's Vietnamese police after beating the crap out of them . He was court-martialed . You want a M 1 carbine or a 38 cheap , what a character but it did bring a few laughs , even now that I think of it . With the rules an regulations now , I would think bringing your personal weapon back an forth from a war seems a bit much.

[5whiskey]

Well, there's a big difference between "approving" the carry of personal weapons and "tolerating" those do did in spite of policy

I will agree with this. However... The fact remains that the op's acquaintance managed to get his piece back statewide. As many who have deployed have described, getting a weapon to country (and carrying it in, if command is friendly) is not overly difficult. Getting it back is another matter. You're bags are tossed and sneaking a weapon back wouldn't be easy. There are ways, but they're a big gamble. Not something I wanted to wager rank and a $500 dollar pistol on.

I agree theoretically it could happen. But I do believe it was so rare to almost be fanciful. I believe the guy is lying. I've never seen anyone with a personal weapon on my 3 combat deployments.

[fredvon4]

Hdwhit

Just poor writing
Drafted 73 ...enlisted for 4 instead of the 2year draft obligation...got a combat arms enlistment bonus

Long war time Basic for my class 14 weeks
The combat arms enlistment had me selected for Field Artillery...sent to Ft Lewis for new single unit Advanced Individual Training (AIT) Not to Ft Sill as was typical

Later as a first sergeant I was tagged to be acting CSM of 4/227 Aviation BN did that job and still had my Maintenance company as 1SG for 14 months

For family (kids in high School) reasons I retired before attending the academy

Retire 1-1-1996 with a tad over 23 years active

Ft Eustis assignment was mid 87 until 91 at the Aviation School house