Help with a dated 1759 powder horn please - Page 2

drobs · March 19, 2018, 01:11 PM

It's obvious that you need to buy a Flintlock rifle, load it with black powder from that horn and enjoy / experience history 1st hand.

Shooting black powder is lots of fun.

What is written below the motto and what is the full name under the date?

I see "Drit" below the motto and "Henry" below the date.

"Drit" could be "Droit" meaning "Right" or "Due"

http://www.icollector.com/1761-Frenc...iner_i27757295

drobs · March 19, 2018, 01:44 PM

The mention of the word "Die" in the below picture also points to the French and Indian War.

"Join or Die"

http://americancreation.blogspot.com...in-or-die.html

drobs · March 19, 2018, 02:18 PM

I see the letters "REG" in the square below.

REG.jpg

Any roman numerals anywhere on there?

British Regiments
www.warof1812.ca/charts/7warchtb.htm

Slamfire · March 19, 2018, 02:24 PM

There are counterfeit powder horns. The antique ones are worth a lot of money to collectors, so they are being faked. I saw an Antique Roadshow program, about half of the Collector's powder horns on the table were declared fakes by the appraiser.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/sea...rn--201102A41/

So, I don't know and I don't have the ability to judge this horn, but it sure looks neat.

Ze52514 · March 19, 2018, 02:34 PM

Not sure it’s a unicorn. I think it’s a horse that is possibly wearing armor...

Ze52514 · March 19, 2018, 02:39 PM

When I get home here in a minute I will take a closer look. Drobs if you can email me I can send you a lot better photos. It won’t let me add photos. Keeps showing error. [email protected]

Thank you

Ze52514 · March 19, 2018, 02:51 PM

I’m not seeing any Roman numerals. I do see “drit” and in the box next to Henri_chitA? The last letter looks like a A to me. And there’s faint lines that look like Chita after Henry. ???

drobs · March 19, 2018, 04:40 PM

Email sent, I'm heading to bed but will check them out in the morning. Is 1240 am here.

Ze52514 · March 19, 2018, 04:48 PM

Sounds great man. I’ll have you pics in about a half hr. I Appreciate it.

**4V50 Gary** · March 20, 2018, 06:40 PM

That's a stylized version of the Royal Cipher. I know because I put the same thing on my second horn.

The top features the crown and on the left the British Lion. On the right is the fettered unicorn that represents Scotland (that's why it's fettered). "Honi Soit Q Mal Y Pense" is Latin for "Evil to he who thinks it." That was pretty common on carved horns of the era.

Suggest you take the horn to the Honourable Company of Horners for their examination. Art deCamp or Roland Cadle would be good people to examine it. If you're in Virginia, take it to the De Witt Museum (but make an appointment first)

Dieu et mon Droit is also a saying from the era and is French for God and my Right. That was also on the cipher.

Here is a modernized version:

James Dresslar's book on The Engraved Powder Horn is a good book to reference for the F&I era powder horn. May I ask how you came about it?

Ze52514 · March 20, 2018, 08:41 PM

Oh very nice. thanks for straightening that up. I’m in Illinois. There’s a auction house in Chicago I’m going to try to take it too this weekend. I spoke with him before I sent the pics he would like to examine it.

I collect bicycles. And when I answered a add on CL i asked the people if they had anything else. And then they went into the story that they are cleaning out there grandpas house because he had passed. And I said well shoot me over pics of what your willing to sell and this happened to be something they found and sent me a pic and had asked me
If I knew what it was. And I said no but I want it. And as soon as I got it I started the research.

so this is how I ended up with it.

**4V50 Gary** · March 20, 2018, 10:25 PM

You might want to go to Conner Prairie Museum (Fishers, Indiana) and take Art De Camp's hornmaking classes. It's not to make the horn but to tap into Art for his insights into old horns.

Ze52514 · March 21, 2018, 08:03 AM

I totally would if I had a little passion for this sorta thing. It’s very interesting but I’m way to busy to take on another hobby. I was just hoping there was a collector out there that could help me identifying how old this particular horn is. I’m going to take it to heritage auctions and see what they have to say.

James K · March 21, 2018, 09:45 PM

It doesn't help much, but I agree that the person who did the carving was, at best, semi-literate, and was copying, as best he could, the royal crest from something else.

For that reason, I am inclined to think it is genuinely old (though heavily cleaned by "scraping", removing a lot of detail).

Jim

Ze52514 · March 21, 2018, 09:51 PM

Thank you for your input. I would have to agree with you.

Ze52514 · March 21, 2018, 10:01 PM

I was thinking also the old English spells words different than today. So back then I was told by a good friend and a history teacher of 35 years said Henry used to be spelled Henri?

**4V50 Gary** · March 21, 2018, 10:11 PM

Henri could be French spelling too (an-ree). I have read quite a number of letters (published) or diaries by British officers of the period and sSpelling could be phonetic and it was not unknown for the same word to be misspelled twice in the same paragraph. Quill pens didn't have auto-correct. Pocket dictionaries weren't around and certainly weren't carried on campaigns.

Remember carved horns could be made by professionals or by soldiers (trench art). Yours is beautiful but not the best carving or scrimshawing I've seen. This does not detract from it. They all have a unique story of their own.

One thing about used horns, the side that it is worn against tend to lose details more than the unworn side. Can you post more images? You can put a chopstick into the spout and use beanbags to support it while you rotate it for different angles.

Modern reproductions also duplicate misspellings in the strive to duplicate the original as closely as possible.

Ze52514 · March 21, 2018, 10:40 PM

I will most definitely get better pics. I have troubles posting pics. I’ll have the wire help me out tomorrow evening! Bedtime now

. Thanks guys!!

toot44 · March 22, 2018, 09:44 AM

I think you hit the MOTHER LOAD on this. it is as good if not better than ones in museums!

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 10:06 AM

I’m guessing your joking lol

**4V50 Gary** · March 22, 2018, 10:39 AM

Patina is right. The stopper looks suspiciously new. The plug at the end doesn't seemed banged up or dirtied and. Please do share what the auction house says. But don't you sell it.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 10:42 AM

I won’t sell it until I know for certain. And I will keep updating. My wife was going to try to add more pics from her work computer here in a bit. I have about 13 more pics I sent to a member in a message that I’m trying to get help uploaded. The software on the site doesn’t allow me to add them from a phone.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 12:29 PM

Just heard back from a local auction house. He said it looks to be authentic. He wants to get the pics over to someone who would know for sure. But also wants me to bring it in to see in person. So hopefully tomorrow I can get over there and find something out.

**4V50 Gary** · March 22, 2018, 12:48 PM

Please share the details.

BTW, suggest you take very good professional photographs of it and get it published in Muzzle Blasts.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 01:09 PM

Is muzzle blasts a magazine?

March 19, 2018, 01:11 PM	#26
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	It's obvious that you need to buy a Flintlock rifle, load it with black powder from that horn and enjoy / experience history 1st hand. Shooting black powder is lots of fun. What is written below the motto and what is the full name under the date? I see "Drit" below the motto and "Henry" below the date. "Drit" could be "Droit" meaning "Right" or "Due" http://www.icollector.com/1761-Frenc...iner_i27757295 __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by drobs; March 19, 2018 at 01:24 PM.

March 19, 2018, 01:44 PM	#27
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	The mention of the word "Die" in the below picture also points to the French and Indian War. "Join or Die" http://americancreation.blogspot.com...in-or-die.html __________________ NRA Life Member

March 19, 2018, 02:18 PM	#28
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	I see the letters "REG" in the square below. REG.jpg Any roman numerals anywhere on there? British Regiments www.warof1812.ca/charts/7warchtb.htm __________________ NRA Life Member

March 19, 2018, 02:24 PM	#29
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	There are counterfeit powder horns. The antique ones are worth a lot of money to collectors, so they are being faked. I saw an Antique Roadshow program, about half of the Collector's powder horns on the table were declared fakes by the appraiser. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/sea...rn--201102A41/ So, I don't know and I don't have the ability to judge this horn, but it sure looks neat. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

March 19, 2018, 04:40 PM	#33
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Email sent, I'm heading to bed but will check them out in the morning. Is 1240 am here. __________________ NRA Life Member

March 19, 2018, 02:34 PM	#30
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Not sure it’s a unicorn. I think it’s a horse that is possibly wearing armor...

March 19, 2018, 02:39 PM	#31
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	When I get home here in a minute I will take a closer look. Drobs if you can email me I can send you a lot better photos. It won’t let me add photos. Keeps showing error. [email protected] Thank you

March 19, 2018, 02:51 PM	#32
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I’m not seeing any Roman numerals. I do see “drit” and in the box next to Henri_chitA? The last letter looks like a A to me. And there’s faint lines that look like Chita after Henry. ???

March 19, 2018, 04:48 PM	#34
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Sounds great man. I’ll have you pics in about a half hr. I Appreciate it.

March 20, 2018, 06:40 PM	#35
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	That's a stylized version of the Royal Cipher. I know because I put the same thing on my second horn. The top features the crown and on the left the British Lion. On the right is the fettered unicorn that represents Scotland (that's why it's fettered). "Honi Soit Q Mal Y Pense" is Latin for "Evil to he who thinks it." That was pretty common on carved horns of the era. Suggest you take the horn to the Honourable Company of Horners for their examination. Art deCamp or Roland Cadle would be good people to examine it. If you're in Virginia, take it to the De Witt Museum (but make an appointment first) Dieu et mon Droit is also a saying from the era and is French for God and my Right. That was also on the cipher. Here is a modernized version: James Dresslar's book on The Engraved Powder Horn is a good book to reference for the F&I era powder horn. May I ask how you came about it? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 20, 2018, 08:41 PM	#36
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Oh very nice. thanks for straightening that up. I’m in Illinois. There’s a auction house in Chicago I’m going to try to take it too this weekend. I spoke with him before I sent the pics he would like to examine it. I collect bicycles. And when I answered a add on CL i asked the people if they had anything else. And then they went into the story that they are cleaning out there grandpas house because he had passed. And I said well shoot me over pics of what your willing to sell and this happened to be something they found and sent me a pic and had asked me If I knew what it was. And I said no but I want it. And as soon as I got it I started the research. so this is how I ended up with it.

March 20, 2018, 10:25 PM	#37
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	You might want to go to Conner Prairie Museum (Fishers, Indiana) and take Art De Camp's hornmaking classes. It's not to make the horn but to tap into Art for his insights into old horns. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 21, 2018, 08:03 AM	#38
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I totally would if I had a little passion for this sorta thing. It’s very interesting but I’m way to busy to take on another hobby. I was just hoping there was a collector out there that could help me identifying how old this particular horn is. I’m going to take it to heritage auctions and see what they have to say.

March 21, 2018, 09:45 PM	#39
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It doesn't help much, but I agree that the person who did the carving was, at best, semi-literate, and was copying, as best he could, the royal crest from something else. For that reason, I am inclined to think it is genuinely old (though heavily cleaned by "scraping", removing a lot of detail). Jim

March 21, 2018, 09:51 PM	#40
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Thank you for your input. I would have to agree with you.

March 21, 2018, 10:01 PM	#41
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I was thinking also the old English spells words different than today. So back then I was told by a good friend and a history teacher of 35 years said Henry used to be spelled Henri?

March 21, 2018, 10:11 PM	#42
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Henri could be French spelling too (an-ree). I have read quite a number of letters (published) or diaries by British officers of the period and sSpelling could be phonetic and it was not unknown for the same word to be misspelled twice in the same paragraph. Quill pens didn't have auto-correct. Pocket dictionaries weren't around and certainly weren't carried on campaigns. Remember carved horns could be made by professionals or by soldiers (trench art). Yours is beautiful but not the best carving or scrimshawing I've seen. This does not detract from it. They all have a unique story of their own. One thing about used horns, the side that it is worn against tend to lose details more than the unworn side. Can you post more images? You can put a chopstick into the spout and use beanbags to support it while you rotate it for different angles. Modern reproductions also duplicate misspellings in the strive to duplicate the original as closely as possible. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 21, 2018, 10:40 PM	#43
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I will most definitely get better pics. I have troubles posting pics. I’ll have the wire help me out tomorrow evening! Bedtime now . Thanks guys!!

March 22, 2018, 09:44 AM	#44
toot44 Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Posts: 83	I think you hit the MOTHER LOAD on this. it is as good if not better than ones in museums!

March 22, 2018, 10:06 AM	#45
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I’m guessing your joking lol

March 22, 2018, 10:39 AM	#46
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Patina is right. The stopper looks suspiciously new. The plug at the end doesn't seemed banged up or dirtied and. Please do share what the auction house says. But don't you sell it. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 22, 2018, 10:42 AM	#47
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I won’t sell it until I know for certain. And I will keep updating. My wife was going to try to add more pics from her work computer here in a bit. I have about 13 more pics I sent to a member in a message that I’m trying to get help uploaded. The software on the site doesn’t allow me to add them from a phone.

March 22, 2018, 12:29 PM	#48
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Just heard back from a local auction house. He said it looks to be authentic. He wants to get the pics over to someone who would know for sure. But also wants me to bring it in to see in person. So hopefully tomorrow I can get over there and find something out.

March 22, 2018, 12:48 PM	#49
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Please share the details. BTW, suggest you take very good professional photographs of it and get it published in Muzzle Blasts. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 22, 2018, 01:09 PM	#50
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Is muzzle blasts a magazine?