Gun *and* blade?

gifted · July 22, 2004, 08:42 PM

I'm a bit of a writer. I do little peices now and then right now, as I'm working on filling out the world and plot and such for longer, novel-sized stories.

I have a main plot line for these, and it starts in a near-future earth. There's mostly sci-fi, with a bit of fantasy. I'm basing the main character in part on myself, and thus many of the things he's doing are things I'd love to be able to do. I want to learn eventually, martial arts, though martial science would be a more appropriate term, as Hollywood stunts, and watered-down competition stuff don't really interest me, though that's probably how I'll get started. At any rate, the pinch of fantasy comes in with certain abilities available to those that seek them, and so the character in question in this thread is more capable than he otherwise would be.

This certain character who would demand a very distinctive weapon. Due to his main job later on, he's allowed(for the sake of the book) a certain amount of liberty in regard to personal weapons, and I was thinking he'd be using one of two gigs. This is where the special skills come in. He, in studying, learned of stealth methods that are only rivalled by a ninja, or something like that. At any rate, unless he's in the middle of an open field, with zippo cover, he can evade. Thus most of his skills are tuned to close quarters combat. The first gig for this is fairly simple, he never goes anywhere without his sword, and pistols are easy to conceal, so it would be a pistol and a sword.

The second is completely custom. The weapon is ranged to some extent, probably a shotgun, but is built up custom to serve also as a melee weapon. I'm currently seeing a shotgun, reinforced to handle the melee role, with a blade as an integral part of the weapon. This would be like a bayonet, extending beyond the muzzle at least twelve inches if feasible, and back along the magazine for several inches. The theory behind this weapon would be to have an effective melee range of twenty yards or so, depending on what's loaded. Unlike the lighter armor he'd be wearing with the sword(the primary defense there would be stealth), the outfit with this is heavier, with a bit of a shield on one arm, that makes pistols pretty much useless, and rifles slightly defunct. This isn't an everyday weapon, you'll probably say right away it's not practical for use, and I'd agree with you. Making allowances for what the guy is in the book, however, and it becomes ideal.

The second gig is what I need a reality check on. While this is fiction, I'm trying to be realistic in as many ways as I can, so, just chew it up, spit it out, and I'll work with it.

Arc Angel · July 22, 2004, 09:46 PM

I'm retired and have the time, so ...

Unless you’re, ‘the highlander’ how are you going to hide a sword? Look at all the problems this creates in the TV series. There is no REAL way to hide a sword for more than, say, 60 seconds. Why not use something like a 26” ASP baton, instead? For a pistol I’d suggest something flashy like a Desert Eagle, of course, with a laser attached.

Suggest you use a single barrel, sawed-off, riot gun attached by an elastic strap underneath the arm. Your, ‘melee weapon’ sounds awesome; but, let’s be practical, it simply won’t work! Historically a, ‘battle pike’ needs to be about 4’ in length in order to be an effective weapon. If your, ‘melee weapon’ doesn’t have the approximate: size, weight, and shape of a Garand it will scream of silly fakery and momentarily shock the kind of audience you’re questioning, here, back into reality. (Not good for, either, continuity-of-thought nor the plot line.)

You could use a three piece staff with a shotgun barrel on each end – Like a cane gun only double-ended. You could, even, use that, ‘fantasy license’ you’ve mentioned to make this 3 piece staff into a 6 shot weapon! You’re right, by the way, the public does love to see edged weapons in the movies; but your shotgun/big knife combo isn’t going to work. (Yes, I know the army had them in WWI and II; but, by Vietnam the bayonets had disappeared.) Why not give your hero something like a Rambo knife? I’ve done a little writing, too. Good luck with the book; and remember; ‘Great fantasy is a skillful blend of, both, reality and fiction.’ ‘The best fantasy, always, involves an indestructible hero.’ Since 1965, cinema heroes, also, have to be completely amoral, too. Today, the winning formula involves copious sex and plenty of exceedingly bloody violence. You’ve seen: ‘The James Bond Anthology’, ‘Kill Bill’, and ‘Dark of the Sun’ – right?

gifted · July 23, 2004, 01:08 PM

If the guys are more than four feet away, they're probably going to get buckshot or flechette. In a small space, you don't have enough room to use a polearm effectively. If he can't touch you, he's not going to. He's going to take care of the business at hand, then slip away to strike again.

I've seen them. There's not going to be much sex in here. I trust I can do this without that, and I believe that even if the critics don't like it, there's millions that will. There will be romance though, one of the sticky points in working out the storyline.

Violence, done properly, works. I didn't really like Kill Bill, it was strictly an excuse to spray blood everywhere. Violence provides action, and can be used as a brief comflict within the story to speed up parts.

Arc Angel · July 23, 2004, 11:44 PM

Let's not let this discussion die. OK, violence alone does work. Let's keep the weapons realistic, though. I've always liked that 42" Ninja staff with a gravity knife in the end. How about using this in combination with a quickly drawn Desert Eagle? The audience would be wowed by the exhibition of skill with more than one (covert) weapon.

By the way have you, ever, read anything by Stephen Hayes - like, 'Wisdom from the Ninja Village of the Cold Moon'? Good book and along the lines of what you seem to be interested in.

carebear · July 24, 2004, 12:15 AM

I'm sorry Arc Angel, that book title just made "Chicken Soup for the Ninja's Soul" pop into my head.

Did the bayonets disappear by Vietnam because they were no longer thought useful in general or was it because the bayonet ITSELF shrunk to the point it was no longer useful. A 1917 bayonet was, what, 15" long? That's a good piece of steel you could fight with. I had a duelling/sword history book (which I conveniently can't find) that talked about how the Marines in the Pacific were taught a newer bayonet drill specifically to counter the supposed "sword culture" they would face in the Japanese. I'd fence a guy with 3 feet of steel if I had 15 inches of my own on a metal shafted short "pike" (shotgun). I'd be an idiot to try it with a 7" M9 bayonet.

Maybe the blade could retract and extend from the stock under the barrel to make it less unwieldy in general use. Tho I think <snikt> has been taken for a written sound effect.

gifted · July 24, 2004, 03:40 PM

Is the Desert Eagle a practical sidearm? I'd not use the .50 version.

I'd think that I could put it in after one of the events. One of the alien races lives on a world that is like 70% swamp. The terrain inhibited tactics we consider standard practice for centuries, leaving more of a warrior culture in place. Brings to mind a quote from the Samurai X movie, "Never bring a gun to a sword fight." Humans are one of the few races that developed the firearm early. We were using it en masse before it was really reliable.

Arc Angel · July 24, 2004, 08:58 PM

I wouldn't use the 50AE either; but, yes, the Desert Eagle is, indeed, an awesome weapon. Several people at one of my gun clubs shoot them in, both, 44 mag and 357 mag. These pistols are big and best carried inside a shoulder holster. The most desirable ones appear to be the early IMI guns that were made in Israel; but, from what I can see, they’re all good.

Here’s a link to Magnum Research, stateside:

http://www.magnumresearch.com/

This book sounds, both, fantastic and interesting.

Arizona Fusilier · July 24, 2004, 10:37 PM

Your combo gun/melee weapon is not that far fetched, there being examples during the Renaissance, albeit surrounding the handgun as the platform. Consequently, I disagree that it needs to be of substantial length before it is plausible. The bayonet has not seen a lot of action lately, but it still is issued and carried today by armies all over the world. Given your character is "special", and likes to mix it up at close range, I personally buy the concept.

In addition to the "bayonet", you might want to consider a "mass" weapon like a mace, fashioned out of the buttstock somehow.

gifted · August 7, 2004, 01:05 PM

I was thinking the buttstock would serve as is. Perhaps a few rivets in it or soemthing...One big question is pistol grip or normal(or whatever).

DiN BLiX · August 9, 2004, 01:54 PM

say ur character had some kind of magic cloak or something that would allow him to conceal things, guns, knives, swords, whatever. then you could go with whatever to want.

gifted · August 9, 2004, 05:56 PM

That's pretty much available. Not in that form, but hiding a sword isn't a problem. And the "gunblade" would be a primary weapon for direct encounters, he wouldn't try to carry it concealed.

EricO · August 14, 2004, 03:33 AM

I know one thing, if your character needs a handgun, then the ideal "over the top" one has to be the ZM Weapons "Striker" 1911, created from a SVI/STI frame, a "stand-off" muzzle protector which would not allow it to go out of battery and not fire, and of course ..... whala!! .... the infamous "SKULL CRUSHER' mainspring housing. Infinitely practical. Easy to conceal. High speed. Low drag. All the spec ops guys use them, and all that.

Check your old American Handgunner magazines for pics of this baby, it's the only place you're likely to find one.

Sarcasm and tongue in cheek mode off.
EricO

gifted · August 14, 2004, 11:29 PM

I was actually looking at the .50 GI, or a Five-Seven. Don't forget that while he has alot of leeway, he either makes it himself(the "bayonet" on the shotgun), or gets it from the government.

gyp_c2 · August 19, 2004, 05:56 PM

...How about a big blade like that of a Quan-Dao shape with a slot for his forward hand to ride in?
The slot could be long enough for the pump action and could be removable...
Sort of a half-moon shape extending from the forward hand to 8-10" past the end of the barrel?

...lemme thin' about it...

Spectre · August 20, 2004, 12:15 AM

Fantasy only-

bayonet combo would work well, with 1917 bayonets, or similar sword bayonets.
A kukri would also work well, maybe a kusarigama.

Steve is really more impressive as a dramatist than an author, Arc Angel. He's very...dramatic.

What does it mean...to be...*ALIVE*...

John

gifted · August 20, 2004, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Quan-Ti

What's that?
And I was looking at probably either a semi, or one of the ones that can switch to pump.

gyp_c2 · August 22, 2004, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by gyp_c2
hey...here's a picture on this site of the weapon I'm speaking of (Quan Do) Here's a link =

http://www.wle.com/products/W061-T.html

Hope that works...

You can imagine removing the the long handle and substituting a large blade like this with a handle that lines up with the pump fore-end...or can you?

...good luck, maybe you can find something else there that'll give you an idea...

gifted · August 23, 2004, 12:14 AM

I can, I was going for something a bit lighter though. I got a half-way decent picture I'll post as soon as I can get to a scanner.

claude783 · August 23, 2004, 10:37 AM

Well, this dates me, but the bottom line for a knife has to be the Randall Model 1 with 7-8 inch blade.

Next choice is the Kuri (cold steel).

Of course your man could take a leaf spring from a car and manufacture almost any kind of blade, Philipino, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Arab, etc. History is full of examples of blades!

As for sealth, a gun kind of blows that deal. Try a blowgun with tetrodoxin, or perhaps nicotine sulphate on the darts...

A nice back up weapon would be a Makarov with a silencer on it. Compact, quite, or a 45 with a can on the end of it. Both weapons are sub-sonic so no problem with special ammo...just have to lighten the recoil spring to compensate for loss of velocity!

gifted · August 23, 2004, 12:15 PM

The gunblade isn't for his stealth carry. I gotta finish that pic, and get it scanned in so that you guys know what I'm talking about.

July 22, 2004, 08:42 PM	#1
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	*Gun and* blade?** I'm a bit of a writer. I do little peices now and then right now, as I'm working on filling out the world and plot and such for longer, novel-sized stories. I have a main plot line for these, and it starts in a near-future earth. There's mostly sci-fi, with a bit of fantasy. I'm basing the main character in part on myself, and thus many of the things he's doing are things I'd love to be able to do. I want to learn eventually, martial arts, though martial science would be a more appropriate term, as Hollywood stunts, and watered-down competition stuff don't really interest me, though that's probably how I'll get started. At any rate, the pinch of fantasy comes in with certain abilities available to those that seek them, and so the character in question in this thread is more capable than he otherwise would be. This certain character who would demand a very distinctive weapon. Due to his main job later on, he's allowed(for the sake of the book) a certain amount of liberty in regard to personal weapons, and I was thinking he'd be using one of two gigs. This is where the special skills come in. He, in studying, learned of stealth methods that are only rivalled by a ninja, or something like that. At any rate, unless he's in the middle of an open field, with zippo cover, he can evade. Thus most of his skills are tuned to close quarters combat. The first gig for this is fairly simple, he never goes anywhere without his sword, and pistols are easy to conceal, so it would be a pistol and a sword. The second is completely custom. The weapon is ranged to some extent, probably a shotgun, but is built up custom to serve also as a melee weapon. I'm currently seeing a shotgun, reinforced to handle the melee role, with a blade as an integral part of the weapon. This would be like a bayonet, extending beyond the muzzle at least twelve inches if feasible, and back along the magazine for several inches. The theory behind this weapon would be to have an effective melee range of twenty yards or so, depending on what's loaded. Unlike the lighter armor he'd be wearing with the sword(the primary defense there would be stealth), the outfit with this is heavier, with a bit of a shield on one arm, that makes pistols pretty much useless, and rifles slightly defunct. This isn't an everyday weapon, you'll probably say right away it's not practical for use, and I'd agree with you. Making allowances for what the guy is in the book, however, and it becomes ideal. The second gig is what I need a reality check on. While this is fiction, I'm trying to be realistic in as many ways as I can, so, just chew it up, spit it out, and I'll work with it.

July 22, 2004, 09:46 PM	#2
Arc Angel Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 284	I'm retired and have the time, so ... Unless you’re, ‘the highlander’ how are you going to hide a sword? Look at all the problems this creates in the TV series. There is no REAL way to hide a sword for more than, say, 60 seconds. Why not use something like a 26” ASP baton, instead? For a pistol I’d suggest something flashy like a Desert Eagle, of course, with a laser attached. Suggest you use a single barrel, sawed-off, riot gun attached by an elastic strap underneath the arm. Your, ‘melee weapon’ sounds awesome; but, let’s be practical, it simply won’t work! Historically a, ‘battle pike’ needs to be about 4’ in length in order to be an effective weapon. If your, ‘melee weapon’ doesn’t have the approximate: size, weight, and shape of a Garand it will scream of silly fakery and momentarily shock the kind of audience you’re questioning, here, back into reality. (Not good for, either, continuity-of-thought nor the plot line.) You could use a three piece staff with a shotgun barrel on each end – Like a cane gun only double-ended. You could, even, use that, ‘fantasy license’ you’ve mentioned to make this 3 piece staff into a 6 shot weapon! You’re right, by the way, the public does love to see edged weapons in the movies; but your shotgun/big knife combo isn’t going to work. (Yes, I know the army had them in WWI and II; but, by Vietnam the bayonets had disappeared.) Why not give your hero something like a Rambo knife? I’ve done a little writing, too. Good luck with the book; and remember; ‘Great fantasy is a skillful blend of, both, reality and fiction.’ ‘The best fantasy, always, involves an indestructible hero.’ Since 1965, cinema heroes, also, have to be completely amoral, too. Today, the winning formula involves copious sex and plenty of exceedingly bloody violence. You’ve seen: ‘The James Bond Anthology’, ‘Kill Bill’, and ‘Dark of the Sun’ – right? __________________ ‘There are, only, two kinds of warriors in this world: Those who dream of war, and those who have nightmares about it. As for me? I dream of a better world. I dream of war!’

July 23, 2004, 11:44 PM	#4
Arc Angel Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 284	Let's not let this discussion die. OK, violence alone does work. Let's keep the weapons realistic, though. I've always liked that 42" Ninja staff with a gravity knife in the end. How about using this in combination with a quickly drawn Desert Eagle? The audience would be wowed by the exhibition of skill with more than one (covert) weapon. By the way have you, ever, read anything by Stephen Hayes - like, 'Wisdom from the Ninja Village of the Cold Moon'? Good book and along the lines of what you seem to be interested in. __________________ ‘There are, only, two kinds of warriors in this world: Those who dream of war, and those who have nightmares about it. As for me? I dream of a better world. I dream of war!’

July 24, 2004, 08:58 PM	#7
Arc Angel Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 284	I wouldn't use the 50AE either; but, yes, the Desert Eagle is, indeed, an awesome weapon. Several people at one of my gun clubs shoot them in, both, 44 mag and 357 mag. These pistols are big and best carried inside a shoulder holster. The most desirable ones appear to be the early IMI guns that were made in Israel; but, from what I can see, they’re all good. Here’s a link to Magnum Research, stateside: http://www.magnumresearch.com/ This book sounds, both, fantastic and interesting. __________________ ‘There are, only, two kinds of warriors in this world: Those who dream of war, and those who have nightmares about it. As for me? I dream of a better world. I dream of war!’

August 19, 2004, 05:56 PM	#14
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2000 Location: Colorado...Louisiana Posts: 387	hmmm... ...How about a big blade like that of a Quan-Dao shape with a slot for his forward hand to ride in? The slot could be long enough for the pump action and could be removable... Sort of a half-moon shape extending from the forward hand to 8-10" past the end of the barrel? ...lemme thin' about it... __________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AVERT Last edited by gyp_c2; August 21, 2004 at 12:20 PM.

July 23, 2004, 01:08 PM	#3
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	If the guys are more than four feet away, they're probably going to get buckshot or flechette. In a small space, you don't have enough room to use a polearm effectively. If he can't touch you, he's not going to. He's going to take care of the business at hand, then slip away to strike again. I've seen them. There's not going to be much sex in here. I trust I can do this without that, and I believe that even if the critics don't like it, there's millions that will. There will be romance though, one of the sticky points in working out the storyline. Violence, done properly, works. I didn't really like Kill Bill, it was strictly an excuse to spray blood everywhere. Violence provides action, and can be used as a brief comflict within the story to speed up parts.

July 24, 2004, 12:15 AM	#5
carebear Junior member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 494	I'm sorry Arc Angel, that book title just made "Chicken Soup for the Ninja's Soul" pop into my head. Did the bayonets disappear by Vietnam because they were no longer thought useful in general or was it because the bayonet ITSELF shrunk to the point it was no longer useful. A 1917 bayonet was, what, 15" long? That's a good piece of steel you could fight with. I had a duelling/sword history book (which I conveniently can't find) that talked about how the Marines in the Pacific were taught a newer bayonet drill specifically to counter the supposed "sword culture" they would face in the Japanese. I'd fence a guy with 3 feet of steel if I had 15 inches of my own on a metal shafted short "pike" (shotgun). I'd be an idiot to try it with a 7" M9 bayonet. Maybe the blade could retract and extend from the stock under the barrel to make it less unwieldy in general use. Tho I think <snikt> has been taken for a written sound effect.

July 24, 2004, 03:40 PM	#6
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	Is the Desert Eagle a practical sidearm? I'd not use the .50 version. I'd think that I could put it in after one of the events. One of the alien races lives on a world that is like 70% swamp. The terrain inhibited tactics we consider standard practice for centuries, leaving more of a warrior culture in place. Brings to mind a quote from the Samurai X movie, "Never bring a gun to a sword fight." Humans are one of the few races that developed the firearm early. We were using it en masse before it was really reliable.

July 24, 2004, 10:37 PM	#8
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	Your combo gun/melee weapon is not that far fetched, there being examples during the Renaissance, albeit surrounding the handgun as the platform. Consequently, I disagree that it needs to be of substantial length before it is plausible. The bayonet has not seen a lot of action lately, but it still is issued and carried today by armies all over the world. Given your character is "special", and likes to mix it up at close range, I personally buy the concept. In addition to the "bayonet", you might want to consider a "mass" weapon like a mace, fashioned out of the buttstock somehow.

August 7, 2004, 01:05 PM	#9
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	I was thinking the buttstock would serve as is. Perhaps a few rivets in it or soemthing...One big question is pistol grip or normal(or whatever).

August 9, 2004, 01:54 PM	#10
DiN BLiX Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 35	say ur character had some kind of magic cloak or something that would allow him to conceal things, guns, knives, swords, whatever. then you could go with whatever to want.

August 9, 2004, 05:56 PM	#11
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	That's pretty much available. Not in that form, but hiding a sword isn't a problem. And the "gunblade" would be a primary weapon for direct encounters, he wouldn't try to carry it concealed.

August 14, 2004, 03:33 AM	#12
EricO Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Posts: 124	I know one thing, if your character needs a handgun, then the ideal "over the top" one has to be the ZM Weapons "Striker" 1911, created from a SVI/STI frame, a "stand-off" muzzle protector which would not allow it to go out of battery and not fire, and of course ..... whala!! .... the infamous "SKULL CRUSHER' mainspring housing. Infinitely practical. Easy to conceal. High speed. Low drag. All the spec ops guys use them, and all that. Check your old American Handgunner magazines for pics of this baby, it's the only place you're likely to find one. Sarcasm and tongue in cheek mode off. EricO

August 14, 2004, 11:29 PM	#13
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	I was actually looking at the .50 GI, or a Five-Seven. Don't forget that while he has alot of leeway, he either makes it himself(the "bayonet" on the shotgun), or gets it from the government.

August 20, 2004, 12:15 AM	#15
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Fantasy only- bayonet combo would work well, with 1917 bayonets, or similar sword bayonets. A kukri would also work well, maybe a kusarigama. Steve is really more impressive as a dramatist than an author, Arc Angel. He's very...dramatic. What does it mean...to be...ALIVE... John

August 22, 2004, 03:53 PM	#17
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2000 Location: Colorado...Louisiana Posts: 387	hello... Originally Posted by gyp_c2 hey...here's a picture on this site of the weapon I'm speaking of (Quan Do) Here's a link = http://www.wle.com/products/W061-T.html Hope that works... You can imagine removing the the long handle and substituting a large blade like this with a handle that lines up with the pump fore-end...or can you? ...good luck, maybe you can find something else there that'll give you an idea... __________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AVERT

August 23, 2004, 12:14 AM	#18
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	I can, I was going for something a bit lighter though. I got a half-way decent picture I'll post as soon as I can get to a scanner.

August 23, 2004, 10:37 AM	#19
claude783 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: people's republic of California Posts: 386	Well, this dates me, but the bottom line for a knife has to be the Randall Model 1 with 7-8 inch blade. Next choice is the Kuri (cold steel). Of course your man could take a leaf spring from a car and manufacture almost any kind of blade, Philipino, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Arab, etc. History is full of examples of blades! As for sealth, a gun kind of blows that deal. Try a blowgun with tetrodoxin, or perhaps nicotine sulphate on the darts... A nice back up weapon would be a Makarov with a silencer on it. Compact, quite, or a 45 with a can on the end of it. Both weapons are sub-sonic so no problem with special ammo...just have to lighten the recoil spring to compensate for loss of velocity!

August 23, 2004, 12:15 PM	#20
gifted Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 409	The gunblade isn't for his stealth carry. I gotta finish that pic, and get it scanned in so that you guys know what I'm talking about.