380ACP, Whats a good SD load?

[reteach]

Actually shooting the bull uses a Taurus TCP

Yup. Shouldn't trust my memory like that. Thanks for pointing that out.

[JoeSixpack]

HighValleyRanch
There's more to it then velocity and energy, buffalo bore in my experience is pretty expensive, and your video is just you chronographing it.
What does it do in gel?

as far as FTX I was just going based off the gel tests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hr8X7RLTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H9M6cZGd18
Seems to agree roughly with the Lucky gunner tests.


Seems like all the .380 jhp loads are wimpy.. the FTX just struck me as the most well rounded but the gold dots look nearly as good and are like half the price so I don't have to flush away 70 dollars just testing carry ammo.

The gold dot's seem to come in around 11 inch avg penetration, a little short but maybe we just expect to much out of .380

[dean1818]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

But the results for the .380 through a Ruger LCP:
Critcal defense ...................774 fps (disappointing!)

This is my WHOLE problem with the 380

People use it for CCW, getting their TINY pocket guns, guns that dont give anywhere near the performance that the FBI standards set. (or even manufactures listed performance, because the manufacturer used a gun with a longer barrel to capture data) that they will probably not be able to draw from deep in their pocket in many bad situations, thinking it is a great round because other people buy it

If I was enamored with the 380, where I had to use it, I would get it in a full size pistol, so that the bullet has a decent chance to get up to speed.

If you are taking it to the range to have fun with, thats one thing, if it is a BUG, I get that

But to me, (As I said before, my opinion counts for less than .02)if you are going out in the world, where you MIGHT have to use the thing, where you may be protecting your family, where a bad guy may also actually be armed, AND possibly bullets coming back at me, I want a bullet that performs a little better and does a little more damage than the underperforming 380

its a free country, you get to choose, but to me, the 9mm is the minimum bullet these days, if I want to stay semi auto. As you mentioned, there are some significant improvement in 38s these days as well. (Maybe a pocket carry in 38, if someone was enamored with pocket carry)

The bullet performance comes from speed, expansion, penetration, and energy.

If you compare bullets the best 9mm gives 70- 80% better performance than a comparable 380. That is significant.

I personally IWB carry a HST 40, which is an improvement over that

Again, there is no magic bullet. Counting on perfect, speed of glacier, accurate, range shooting to make sure the tiny bullet gets to the CNS could be problematic if the need arose. I think we ALL would be poorer performers with the stress. A NEAR MISS bullet could be all we get

Good luck with the choices.

[amd6547]

I carry Underwood +P XTP'S in my Beretta 84F. The longer barrel gets the most out of that load, and accuracy is excellent. I ve even rung the 10" steel plate my club has at 80yds.
In my P3AT, I carry FMJ.

[HighValleyRanch]

HighValleyRanch
There's more to it then velocity and energy, buffalo bore in my experience is pretty expensive, and your video is just you chronographing it.
What does it do in gel?

Correct, it's just one example out of one gun, but more the reason that more people should do the tests out of their particular carry gun. While the velocities are lower out of the LCP, one can assume that all the load tests would increase proportionately with a longer barrel gun.
But ME and velocity are indications of what penetration might be expected, as well as bullet configuration. The flat nose HC is designed to penetrate, period.
It might not expand as much, but does significant damage on the way.
Feeding in a particular gun might be another consideration.

I don't have any ballistic gel, and again, just sharing my personal tests results.
People can take what they want from it.

Expense should not be that much of a consideration. People pay a grand for their guns then skimp on ammo? 24.00 for 20 rounds, a buck a round, spend 100.00 to test is a small price for safety.

[Saurdaukar]

Lehigh Defense XD / XP loaded by Underwood.

[Carmady]

one can assume that all the load tests would increase proportionately with a longer barrel gun.

One would assume wrong if he did.

There was a test on youtube involving 9mm rounds and three barrels; 3", 3.5", and 4.25".

The .5" increase from 3" to 3.5" resulted in a much higher increase in velocity than the 1.25" increase from 3.5" to 4.75" (which is 2.5 x .5").

I was surprised. Different calibers might give different results.

[HighValleyRanch]

You misunderstood my statement.
I didn't mean that the loads would increase proportionately to barrel length, but that the three loads that I tested would be simialar in the load variation out of a diferent weapon with a different barrel length.

i.e. that the BB load would still be the hottest, followed by the Hydroshock, followed by the Critical defense no matter what length gun you fired.
IN THE POSTED EXAMPLES THAT I TESTED!

[wild cat mccane]

No. For example, Speer offers short barrel ammo. There are variances that are dependent on all factors, not just one.

[Laz]

I've been relying on 95 grain Fmj flat nose for my Sig P238 mostly Winchester Q4206 because it is reliable, available, and reasonable. Out of all the .380 hollow points that are also readily available the one that impresses me the most overall is not the best in any category but seems to be a remarkable consistent performer across numerous testing by different testers under varying conditions. That is the Speer 90 grain GDHP. It seems to perform well in bare or clothed gel from shorter and longer barrels and is remarkably consistent test after test getting between 10.5 and 11.5 inches of penetration through denim and consistent moderate expansion. That will likely be the load I migrate to if I move to hollow points, after I can try enough of it.

[JoeSixpack]

Laz I thought the something, considering all things the Gold Dot looks like a good pick.

Im planing on placing a order for some but I gotta figure what else I can put on the order to take advantage of shipping.

I was just getting ready to buy some blazer brass .380 when the place I was ordering from sold out of it.

Targetsport has aguila 1k for 200 free shipping which is a good deal for .380 but Im wondering how long is it gonna take me to shoot 1k rounds out of a little .380 pocket gun.. probably last me 2 years lol.

[Hal]

maybe we just expect to much out of .380

Maybe....personally, I view the .380 acp as a sort of .38 special "light".

But ME and velocity are indications of what penetration might be expected,

Nope - only in a roundabout way doe they matter.
Where penetration is concerned, sectional density is - and will always be - king of the hill.

An arrow weighing 400 to 500 grains with a sectional density of ~ .698psi shot at 300 fps will out-penetrate a 180 grain .30/06 bullet @ over 2500 fps.

Don't believe it?

Shoot a sack of grain w/a .30/06 & the bullet stops in it.
Superglue a similar bullet to the shaft of an arrow and shot that sack & the bullet comes out the other side.


Velocity will deliver a higher ME & a flatter trajectory.

The drawback to higher velocity is - - it can and often will, cause the bullet to expand. When a nominal bullet, such as a 95 grain, .355" bullet with a dismal SD of .108psi expands, it causes the SD figure & thus penetration, to go down.
That in itself is neither good or bad.
Controlled expansion is a good thing expansion just for the sake of expansionis a bad thing.

Didn't you read my post that we only got 774 fps with the Hornady FTX?
It was even worse than the Federal Hydroshocks!

And your point here is what?
774 fps is a fair velocity - considering that you really only need between 300 and 500 to be considered lethal.
774 is also quite a bit quicker than the .44 russian and/or the .44 sp (246 gr), the .38 S&W, .455 Webley - and quite a few other traditional service type rounds - that have fair to good reputations for getting the job done.

The whole topic is - - convoluted at best & complicated more by the companies that lure people in with misleading (but 100% true) ME and velocity figures.

Targetsport has aguila 1k for 200 free shipping which is a good deal for .380 but Im wondering how long is it gonna take me to shoot 1k rounds out of a little .380 pocket gun.. probably last me 2 years lol.

Where are you in Ohio? I just recently got my Ruger LCP & it looks like it's going to be my go-to carry gun. I quit shooting .380 years ago (when the small "pocket 9's" first came about). I might be interested in going halves with you on some.

[HighValleyRanch]

Shoot a sack of grain w/a .30/06 & the bullet stops in it.
Superglue a similar bullet to the shaft of an arrow and shot that sack & the bullet comes out the other side.

Shoot a sack of grain with a blunt headed arrow of the same weight and density and see how far it penetrates, and then shoot a .38 special wadcutter into the same sack and see if it bounces off. Speed and velocity do make a difference!

[Hal]

Speed and velocity do make a difference!

I never said velocity didn't make a difference. Velocity isn't anywhere near as critical as it's pumped up to be is all.

People tout velocity too much when what they really are trying to convey is - momentum.
The .38 wadcutter will probably go into the sack further than the arrow because it has greater momentum - which it gets by having a slightly better velocity.

Then again - - who knows?

A 148 grain wadcutter isn't really a fireball @ 700 something fps.
It might not even penetrate the fabric.

Any volunteers to give it a try?
I'd do it, but, I really don't care if it bounces or not.

[wild cat mccane]

Also hollow bullet design.

Faster is great to a point and then it becomes a problem of breaking it apart.

[JoeSixpack]

I picked up some of the golddots at Outdoors Limited.
Reason I bought from them instead of SGammo is cause they had some other stuff I wanted.

Hopefully they feed ok, I like to run a few 100 rounds of ball first before testing defense loads.

Probably take me a couple range trips before it's ready to eat JHP's.

[hdwhit]

JoeSixPack wrote:
I've been looking at some gel tests and there are some really fine expanding JHP's in .380..

Gel tests create a consistent baseline for comparison of one bullet to another.

But it would be a mistake to take the behavior of a bullet in ballistic gel as a sure-fire proxy for how the bullet will perform when fired into a human being. This is because people are not blobs of ballistic gel; they are flesh, bone, sinew, organs and even empty spaces.

A gel test tells you nothing about how a bullet will perform (and what kind of injury the target will suffer) in the case of a bullet that, say, goes a half-inch through flesh and then hits a bone at an oblique angle.

If you want to really have an idea how a bullet you're considering will perform then spend the money to go to the butcher and get about a 35 pound slab of bone-in pork, take that out to a gravel pit (because I don't think very many ranges would allow it) and put a few rounds in it. When we were teenagers, a friend and I took the leftover bits that a deer hunter didn't want and used it for target practice.

I'm pretty sure you'll never pay any attention to a gel test again.

[JoeSixpack]

Sometimes you run across someone doing tests like that, or hogs heads.
I don't have any where to test that.. I can't shoot in my back yard, no range I goto will allow you to shoot anything but paper.
And frankly Im not willing to go thru the time or expense of hand testing a dozen loads.

I have no choice but to go off gel tests, Is it perfect? no, but what is?
It's better then picking one at random off the shelf.

[HighValleyRanch]

I have no choice but to go off gel tests, Is it perfect? no, but what is?
It's better then picking one at random off the shelf.

Do you do your own gel tests, or go off what you see on youtube?

Note: As much as I really like the guy on Lucky Gunner, I keep in mind that he also is in the business of selling ammo as well, so tests results are take with a grain of salt.

[JoeSixpack]

youtube, gun blogs.. Like I said, I have no place to test gel even if I wanted to.. Unless I did it on the sly in my garage or something.

I already know what you're gonna say.. I look at several if possible.
If more then one person is getting similar results It's a good indication the results are legit.

People like TNoutdoors.. I regard his testing pretty highly.

I have no experience with gel testing personally so I wouldn't even trust my results without something to compare it to already.

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Note: As much as I really like the guy on Lucky Gunner, I keep in mind that he also is in the business of selling ammo as well, so tests results are take with a grain of salt.

I can see why you would look at their tests with suspicion.
But some of the tests show failures, that's not good for business.

Besides that the FTX and Golddots which is the two loads I looked at the most both had similar results recorded on youtube, So I think they're probably legit.

[Atonal]

YouTuber Paul Harrell and his "Meat Target" is an interesting way to see how various calibers perform in something other than gel.

[JoeSixpack]

Ya He's got some good videos, I had seen some gel tests with FMJ, which is actually what I was leaning towards when I started this thread.

And in the Gel tests was seeing like 25+ inch penetration, Which does not seem too bad when you're just looking at a faceless block of solidified goo.

But then I watched his .380 ammo video where he put two meat targets back to back and the .380 fmj just zipped right thru both of them I thought.. damn I need to rethink this.

[Triggernosis]

Winchester white box 95 grain RNFP. Flat points are a good compromise between FMJ and hollow points, which may not perform very well from a .380 when shooting through heavy clothes.

[Laz]

I look at several if possible. If more then one person is getting similar results It's a good indication the results are legit.

I do the same. And that is what impresses me about the Gold Dot. It seems to do well in many tests and tends to be very uniform from shot to shot. (According my very unscientific observation.)

[Cosmodragoon]

Chasing good expansion can be an uphill battle with .380. This has given some people cause to recommend FMJ. I think we can do better. Modern technology allows for decent, machined solids that will do better. For instance, I won't be the first to recommend the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators. Here is a good discussion and various gel tests of both the regular load and the hot Underwood load on the Military Arms Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40&t=779s

Even through barriers, these perform very well and leave very attractive wound channels.