380ACP, Whats a good SD load?

[wild cat mccane]

A misunderstood point here, flat points do NOT necessarily crush more than a round bullet. In fact, they can be the worst for it.

Google if you wish. Lots of discussion if you research the Fiocchi 123gr 9mm truncated fmj. Scientifically, the truncated .40 FMJ would always crush more than a round 9mm FMJ when controlling velocity and weight. That isn't true.

[Laz]

Google if you wish.

Wild Cat, I certainly have googled these questions and I would not ask that you work to provide specific links which you likely have not kept, but if you could suggest a hint of what you searched for to come up with that information, it would be most appreciated.

[wild cat mccane]

Fiocchi 142gr 357 also brings up these discussions.

http://www.xdtalk.com/threads/fiocch....168775/page-2

[wild cat mccane]

What I've found in real data (not repeated opinion) is that difference between RN and TC in the smaller calibers is absolutely nothing.

It starts to matter in larger, but then it really only "works" if the bullet is designed correctly for that function.

[HighValleyRanch]

http://www.xdtalk.com/threads/fiocch....168775/page-2

The referred thread is about truncated, not flat point.
Truncated is different than flat nose.

A solid truncated shape that is closer to an arrow head might create a smaller channel than a round nose, but a flat point with create a large hole by virtual of it's corners of the flat point and this depends on how flat is the flat.
And a bullet that is trucated but designed to expand like the Critical defense DPX truncated bullet will expand better than a round FMJ.

A wad cutter cuts a wider hole than a round nose. Wad cutter is flat nose.
But even a "truncated" flat point like the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsmand Keith HC is designed to cut a larger channel than a FMJ or round nose.

But then mayber you were referring to the LeHigh rather than the BB flat point.
Take a look at this RIP round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmy7Vp7aNHw

[wild cat mccane]

No. Truncated or flat point are interchangeable in this context. There are no 380 wad cutter rounds.

For example, the Winchester round mentioned above by others is both a flat point or a truncated round-it isn't a round point. It certainly isn't a semi/wad cutter round.

BB calls it a flat nose, but it is also truncated: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=127

It is not a wad cutter round and is the same shape as the 95gr FMJ Winchester round that is copper jacketed.

[HighValleyRanch]

There is no 380 wad cutter rounds.

I didn't mean to infer that there are .380 wadcutters but that the edge on a wadcutter is the same as the edge on a flat nose bullet, and it is the edge that creates more damage than a round fmj. It's physics.

[bricz75]

Originally Posted by hdwhit

Gel tests create a consistent baseline for comparison of one bullet to another.

But it would be a mistake to take the behavior of a bullet in ballistic gel as a sure-fire proxy for how the bullet will perform when fired into a human being. This is because people are not blobs of ballistic gel; they are flesh, bone, sinew, organs and even empty spaces.

A gel test tells you nothing about how a bullet will perform (and what kind of injury the target will suffer) in the case of a bullet that, say, goes a half-inch through flesh and then hits a bone at an oblique angle.

If you want to really have an idea how a bullet you're considering will perform then spend the money to go to the butcher and get about a 35 pound slab of bone-in pork, take that out to a gravel pit (because I don't think very many ranges would allow it) and put a few rounds in it. When we were teenagers, a friend and I took the leftover bits that a deer hunter didn't want and used it for target practice.

I'm pretty sure you'll never pay any attention to a gel test again.

This is a good post. I only consider gel tests when comparing one load to another as well. I've heard of loads penetrating much less in flesh than they do in gel.

You can help people on here by describing your experiments with shooting carcasses.

Any ammo recommendations for 9mm and .45 that will penetrate sufficiently even if bone is hit?

[bricz75]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Google if you wish. Lots of discussion if you research the Fiocchi 123gr 9mm truncated fmj. Scientifically, the truncated .40 FMJ would always crush more than a round 9mm FMJ when controlling velocity and weight. That isn't true.

FWIW, the Fiocchi truncated fmj has a much thinner flat nose than other truncated nose rounds.

[wild cat mccane]

So does all 147gr 9mm and truncated 357 rounds. These are small diameter calibers.

The difference doesn't exist in data.

[wild cat mccane]

Now deceased RC notes that using the Winchester .380 round is a mistake because you give up so much FPS compared to most other RN FMJ .380 rounds: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...se-fmj.489970/

Article on how flat points work better, only when designed with large meplats: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

[wild cat mccane]

Now to contradict myself, on post 26 I posted Loki's testing (Loki being the ShootingtheBull of ten years ago-probably more prolific). https://web.archive.org/web/20121007.../gel380acp.htm

His Winchester goes deeper to 17" where other FMJ did not. However, the hot Federal and S&B rounds are not listed any longer.

[Laz]

The most compelling evidence or argument for using Flat-nosed Fmj in .380 are those tests which indicate the flat-nose has a greater tendency to tumble than the round-nose possibly slight increasing the wound channel and slightly decreasing the over-penetration risks. The more tests I look at, it seems the more variance I see in results. .380 will never be ideal, it seems. I still believe the Speer 90 grain GDHP has shown the most uniform results over a wide range of tests.

One advantage to fnfmj seems to me is the ability to practice consistently with your carry load.

[wild cat mccane]

I guess Speer Gold Dot does come in 50 rnd boxes for 380.

Learn something new everyday.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/380-au...-le-ammo-53606

[Model12Win]

I use Ball in my .380s and 9x18s. There are probably some .380 hollow points that do alright these days, but I just feel better with a bit more penetration. Read about the Miami FBI shootout if you don't think penetration is important. In short, one of the suspects who attacked the agents WOULD have had his heart perforated by a 9mm hollow point... if it had gone an extra 1/2" into his body. I am NOT saying 9x19mm is good for ball these days, there are some GREAT performing 9x19mm hollow points, but for the little .380 I just don't trust that lightweight slower bullet to reach the vitals if it's not an FMJ. Also ball ammo just tends to feed better in these small guns, especially older models like the Walther and Makarov. Hell, I know I'm probably going to get crucified for this but I even use ball in my 1911s if I plan to use them for defense, as it just feeds so well and we all know the reputation that 230 grain hardball pill made for itself in WW1/WW2/Korea/Nam/Iraq/Afghan etc. etc.

[briandg]

I carry Sig v crown. I have horrendous nightmares every night. Last night I only had my body guard with v crown, only six rounds, and I not only killed the rubberized eight foot tall, 450 pound monster, I also managed to get his demonic pussycat.

YOU CAN'T GET A BETTER TESTIMONIAL THAN THAT.

[Cyanide971]

90-grain Hornady XTP performs consistently on penetration and decent expansion from all the tests I've seen, and they were very accurate out of my Bersa.

[ftttu]

I am putting my eggs into the Hornady 90 gr FTX Critical Defense basket due to the lucky gunner.com ballistic tests. If you care about FBI 12"-18" FBI penetration standard, the FTX are the only 5 test rounds which all fell into that range AND all had mushroomed with an average of .52" in diameter.

I just purchased another G42, and I feel confident as I go out an about with it with FTX and two extra mags. My main carry is still a G43, but the G42 will probably get a lot of duty while on my daily walks with my wife and dogs due to it being slightly lighter.

If anyone cares to see these tests, here's the link that others have already posted: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

[Front Sight]

Sorry to add to a 1 month old thread, but...

I carry Sig V-Crown in both my Glock 42 and my LCP (and actually carry 124-gr. 9mm V-Crown in my 9mm too).

According to the LuckyGunner gel tests that people often refer to, it has consistent expansion and penetrates slightly better than Speer Gold Dots (which I also have in my ammo box).

I feel confident that these will do the job, but I’ve thought about alternating the V-Crown with FMJ rounds in the magazine for the just-in-case-it’s-underpenetrating situation. My concern is what the prosecuting attorney thinks about this plan...

[K_Mac]

I carry Sig v crown. I have horrendous nightmares every night. Last night I only had my body guard with v crown, only six rounds, and I not only killed the rubberized eight foot tall, 450 pound monster, I also managed to get his demonic pussycat.

YOU CAN'T GET A BETTER TESTIMONIAL THAN THAT.

briandg I have never used the Sig ammo, but after reading your heroic account of good overcoming evil I will have to buy a few. I wonder if I can a box of six?

For the record I use either Hornady XTP or FTX most of the time.

[subhuman]

90 grain XTP, 950-1000 FPS, from whatever manufacture you choose

[otasan]

I'd use a heavier FMJ cartridge; the .380 needs penetration.

[dean1818]

This is like a pro wrestling cage match.........

[TruthTellers]

I've seen videos of .380 ammo made using Hornady XTP bullets expanding, but not so much to decrease penetration like other .380 JHP bullets do. So, Hornady, Fiocchi, and anyone else that uses the XTP bullet should work.

However, given how slow the velocity with .380 is and how guns can be different, I've come to the conclusion that hollow points in the .380 are not the best choice. I've really found myself liking the copper/polymer bullets with the flutes cut in the nose. I don't know how much damage those flutes do, but I like that the bullets weigh less than what a .32 ACP does, so you get a high velocity and lower recoil and generally 11-12 inches penetration in gel, which is good for what the .380 pocket pistols are.

[otasan]

Corbon makes a great .380 round - a 90gr JHP going 1050 FPS. Tested in a 2.5-inch barrel.

https://www.corbon.com/original-jhp.html